Imperator - Development Diary #13 - 20th of August 2018

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Rubidium

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Yeah, the struggle between the Populares and the Optimates led to all sorts of civil strife, civil wars, and ultimately the fall of the Republic with Caesar rising to power in large part as the champion of the Populares.

More broadly, most ancient "Republican" institutions, both in Rome and elsewhere, were explicitly designed to entrench the power of the elites through restrictions on the franchise (preventing the poorer inhabitants or foreigners from voting) and unfair electoral systems. As a result, the poorer classes tended to support either tyrants (who, since they tended to draw their support from the lower classes and opposition from the elites, tended to pass more reformist measures) or truer democracies (with expanded electorates and various reforms to make voting fairer).

All of this is inherent in our sources (which, since they were generally written by wealthy citizens with lots of free time, tended to support the Senate and portray the Populares and their predecessors as misguided and destructive), all of which were written a couple thousand years before modern politics.
 

Denkt

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Why does Carthage have North African traditions? It makes it sound like they are a Berber/Numidian group. Surely they should have something like Semitic, Punic or Phoenician traditions. Phrygia gets Greek traditions and not Lydian or Anatolian traditions so traditions seem to be cultural not geographic. Now we haven't seen any other nation from there so maybe the other nations get Berber/Numidian traditions and North African is Punic but in that case it has really weird naming conventions.

Traditions have to do with how their military will develop. So somebody with Roman traditions will have different military advantage compared to someone with Greek traditions.

Military Traditions: Each culture has a unique way of waging war. Romans and Celts have different options available to them. Unlock unique bonuses, abilities and units.
 

Antediluvian Monster

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Is it possible to change from kingdom to republic?

Hopefully it's possible to change from every government form to every other government form. The Greeks poleis changed their government often enough in this period. For example Aratus overthrew the tyrant of Sicyon and had it join the demoratic Achaean League, Cleomenes III (who would probably be populist in game terms) cracked down on Spartan ephors and became a tyrant, few years before the start Demetrius had booted Macedonian imposed oligarchs from Athens and restored it's traditional democracy.
 

Lollius Palican

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I see you read a lot of senatorial history. Weird how they all think that the other side is bad^^




Populares vs. Optimates is the central conflict during the entire republican era. The "gamey" part of the faction system is that there is any other factions than populists and elitists. Cicero would have had no idea what you are talking about, if you told him about a civic or a militaristic faction.
(I'm totally okay with this btw, I just mean that if you would delete any faction for historic reasons it should be "everything but populist" :))
I agree with the first part. Socio-economical developments destabilized the Republic. It were the conflicts between new elites, the senate which tried to illegally expand its formal power, and factions within the population which strived for expansion of their own rights which had an effect on the immediate political level.
Optimates vs Populares has been adequately debunked in literature in the past 20 years though.
 

ctodd

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Hello everyone and welcome to another development diary for Imperator. Today is the lucky number 13, and we’ll talk about how the politics in Republics work, or more specific the Senate.

The Senate, in a republic, has 100 seats, and each seat belongs to one of of five factions. Every adult character in a republic has a predilection of each faction, and is supportive of one. Each faction also have a leader, generally the most prominent character that supports that faction.

Depending on which faction the ruler of the republic belongs to, the republic gets various bonuses or maluses.

  • Civic Faction: +25% Tax Income, 10% Cheaper and Faster buildings.
  • Military Faction: +25% Land Morale, +25% Naval Morale
  • Mercantile Faction: +25% Commerce Income, +5 Diplomatic Reputation
  • Religious Faction: +10% Omen Duration, 33% Cheaper Religious Conversion
  • Populist Faction: +10% Power Costs


For Modders: You can freely add or remove factions and make them available to different government types, or have any type of trigger allowing the faction to give unique ones.

As you may notice there, having populists in power is not entirely beneficial.


The amount of seats in the senate change over time, depending on different factors, with the charisma of the faction leader always impacting the attraction of the seats.

If you wish to strengthen a parties position in the senate instantly, you can always spend oratory power to convince 10 seats to join that faction instead. Doing so however, increases your tyranny.

So why must you take into account the composition of the senate. Well.. There are three types of activities where the senate will impact your ability to do exactly what you want at any given time, like a ruler in an absolute monarchy.

The senate can outright block you if the support for the action you desire to do, if less than 40 seats is currently backing that action. And if less than 60 seats back the action, you can force it through, but you will gain some tyranny from it.

There are three different categories of actions which require senate approval.
  • All changing of laws require approval by the senate
  • A lot of character interactions, like banishing, imprisoning, etc.
  • All diplomatic interactions with other nations.


If the senate will approve an action or not depends very much on its composition, and what you want to do. Military Faction is very likely to back new wars, but even some of their seats will be against wars if you have war exhaustion, low at manpower or currently in a war.

When you do an action, a lot of times it has impact on the characters of your nation. Loyalty is lost or gained depending on faction membership, and seats are gained and lost for different factions.

For Modders: All of this can be controlled entirely through powerful scripting language.

Here is an example of the Senate Calculations for 'Declare War'


Code:
####################################
# Declare War
####################################
declare_war = {

    approval = {
   
        military_party = {
            base = 0
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.5
                has_civil_war = no
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    add = root.manpower_percentage
                    max = 0.5
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.3
                war = yes
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 20
                    subtract = root.has_war_exhaustion
                    divide = 50
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            #######generic
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = military_senate_support_svalue
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = root.current_ruler.martial
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                OR = {
                    AND = {
                        current_ruler = {
                            num_of_friends >= 1
                        }
                        any_character = {
                            is_friend = root.current_ruler
                            is_party_leader_of = root.party:military_party
                        }
                    }
                    current_ruler = {
                        is_party_leader_of = root.party:military_party
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.current_ruler = {
                                party = military_party
                            }
                        }
                        add = 0.2
                        add = {
                            value = 0
                            add = root.tyranny
                            divide = 100
                        }
                        max = 0.4
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.15
                current_ruler = {
                    num_of_rivals >= 1
                }
                any_character = {
                    is_rival = root.current_ruler
                    is_party_leader_of = root.party:military_party
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.1
                government = aristocratic_republic
            }
        }
   
        civic_party = {
            base = 0
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.5
                has_civil_war = yes
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                NOT = { current_ruler = { has_same_culture_group_as = scope:target.current_ruler } }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                NOT = { current_ruler = { has_same_culture_as = scope:target.current_ruler } }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 20
                    subtract = root.has_war_exhaustion
                    divide = 100
                    max = 0.1
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.2
                scope:target = {
                    is_tribal = yes
                }
            }
            #######generic
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = civic_senate_support_svalue
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = root.current_ruler.finesse
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                OR = {
                    AND = {
                        current_ruler = {
                            num_of_friends >= 1
                        }
                        any_character = {
                            is_friend = root.current_ruler
                            is_party_leader_of = root.party:civic_party
                        }
                    }
                    current_ruler = {
                        is_party_leader_of = root.party:civic_party
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.current_ruler = {
                                party = civic_party
                            }
                        }
                        add = 0.2
                        add = {
                            value = root.tyranny
                            divide = 100
                        }
                        max = 0.4  
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.15
                current_ruler = {
                    num_of_rivals >= 1
                }
                any_character = {
                    is_rival = root.current_ruler
                    is_party_leader_of = root.party:civic_party
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.1
                government = democratic_republic
            }
        }
        religious_party = {
            base = 0.1
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.5
                has_civil_war = yes
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.2
                NOT = { current_ruler = { has_same_religion_as = scope:target.current_ruler } }
            }
            #######generic
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = religious_senate_support_svalue
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = root.current_ruler.zeal
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                OR = {
                    AND = {
                        current_ruler = {
                            num_of_friends >= 1
                        }
                        any_character = {
                            is_friend = root.current_ruler
                            is_party_leader_of = root.party:religious_party
                        }
                    }
                    current_ruler = {
                        is_party_leader_of = root.party:religious_party
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.current_ruler = {
                                party = religious_party
                            }
                        }
                        add = 0.2
                        add = {
                            value = 0
                            add = root.tyranny
                            divide = 100
                        }
                        max = 0.4
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.15
                current_ruler = {
                    num_of_rivals >= 1
                }
                any_character = {
                    is_rival = root.current_ruler
                    is_party_leader_of = root.party:religious_party
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.1
                government = theocratic_republic
            }
        }
        mercantile_party = {
            base = 0.5
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.5
                has_civil_war = yes
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.5
                trade_access_with = scope:target
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.has_war_exhaustion <= 10
                        }
                        value = 10
                        subtract = root.has_war_exhaustion
                        divide = 50
                        max = 0.2
                    }
                    else = {
                        value = 0
                        subtract = root.has_war_exhaustion
                        add = 10
                        divide = 25
                        max = -0.4
                    }
                }
            }
            #######generic
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = mercantile_senate_support_svalue
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = root.current_ruler.charisma
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                OR = {
                    AND = {
                        current_ruler = {
                            num_of_friends >= 1
                        }
                        any_character = {
                            is_friend = root.current_ruler
                            is_party_leader_of = root.party:mercantile_party
                        }
                    }
                    current_ruler = {
                        is_party_leader_of = root.party:mercantile_party
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.current_ruler = {
                                party = mercantile_party
                            }
                        }
                        add = 0.2
                        add = {
                            value = 0
                            add = root.tyranny
                            divide = 100
                        }
                        max = 0.4
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.15
                current_ruler = {
                    num_of_rivals >= 1
                }
                any_character = {
                    is_rival = root.current_ruler
                    is_party_leader_of = root.party:mercantile_party
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.1
                government = oligarchic_republic
            }
        }
        populist_party = {
            base = 0.1
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                scope:target = {
                    is_monarchy = yes
                }
            }
            #######generic
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0.01
                    multiply = populist_senate_support_svalue
                    max = 0.2
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = 0.15
                OR = {
                    AND = {
                        current_ruler = {
                            num_of_friends >= 1
                        }
                        any_character = {
                            is_friend = root.current_ruler
                            is_party_leader_of = root.party:populist_party
                        }
                    }
                    current_ruler = {
                        is_party_leader_of = root.party:populist_party
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = {
                    value = 0
                    if = {
                        limit = {
                            root.current_ruler = {
                                party = populist_party
                            }
                        }
                        add = 0.3
                        add = {
                            value = 0
                            add = root.tyranny
                            divide = 100
                        }
                        max = 0.6  
                    }
                }
            }
            always_modifier = {
                add = -0.15
                current_ruler = {
                    num_of_rivals >= 1
                }
                any_character = {
                    is_rival = root.current_ruler
                    is_party_leader_of = root.party:populist_party
                }
            }
        }
    }
   
    loyalty = {
        military_party = 0.1
        populist_party = -0.1
    }
   
    support = {
        civic_party = -1
        military_party = 3
        mercantile_party = -1
        populist_party = -1
    }
}



View attachment 398612

Stay tuned, next week we’ll talk even more politics with laws and offices.

So we have EU Rome...
 

Swarmmind

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Traditions have to do with how their military will develop. So somebody with Roman traditions will have different military advantage compared to someone with Greek traditions.
I wasn't sure if they were military only, thank you, but the Carthaginian army was immensely different from the other North African nations. It focused more on heavy cavalry, the phalanx due to greek influence, It also had sizable influence from the Iberian tribes due to their colonies there, Elephants due to having better infrastructure for training, and a massive naval focus.
 

Denkt

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I wasn't sure if they were military only, thank you, but the Carthaginian army was immensely different from the other North African nations. It focused more on heavy cavalry, the phalanx due to greek influence, It also had sizable influence from the Iberian tribes due to their colonies there, Elephants due to having better infrastructure for training, and a massive naval focus.
Im not sure it is military only but the only times I have heard the word tradition used in this game is in connection with military. Like in the technology DD we hear that each military technology reduce military tradition cost by -25%.

Can you at least make the populist faction have the benefit of adding positive public order?

Don't make sense. The reason you get populist is that you do things the senators dislike such as having high tyranny. In EU: Rome populist actually increase unrest. The point of populist is that you do not want populist but the tricky part is that it is hard to avoid populists because senators are quite demanding. To many populist can lead to a civil war and that may be very hard to avoid for a large empire because there are so many things that can lead to populists.

It is however possible that populist do allow you to pass certain laws and reforms that reduce unrest and other things but that is really another thing than what I said above.
 

Andrzej2

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I am disappointed that you are simply copying EU Rome VV solutions. Strict division that Republics have only senate and monarchies have only court is something I would like to be redesigned.

To this day I remember my shock when I enforced dictatorship in my Roman Republic and suddenly whole senate was gone, replaced by monarchical court system.

Please don't do this to me again. In some cases senate should exist not in place of rulers court but next to him. For example Sparta was a kingdom and had a senate (gerousia).

Roman Emperors didnt abolish a senate. Even if having a senate in monarchy would not impact gameplay in a significant way I would still like to have it displayed for the flavour.

Btw Dictatorship should be normal Republican institution. I hated that in Vae Victis I couldnt take absolute power, crush my political enemies and give up position like Sulla. Dictatorship in Vae Victis was considered monarchy with senate replaced with court. It was game breaking for me. Please reconsider this design and allow coexistence of monarchical ruler and his court with a senate.
 

ctodd

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IMO: A Stellaris type faction system that applies to every nation would be more ideal, and is more realistic. The system Paradox is planning to use now is not original at all, it’s directly copied from EU Rome.

And really, did EVERY ancient Republic have exactly 5 factions??
 

Denkt

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Carthage is best represented by Greek military tradition, since that's what the core native army essentially followed.
We do not know how military traditions will work or even the military itself. Given how other paradox games work I think military traditions will not only represent the core army but also auxilia, mercenaries and probably the navy.
 

gorillacakes

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Can you at least make the populist faction have the benefit of adding positive public order?

Agreed. I feel that by hewing to the primary historical texts of the Roman Republic most game developers over-emphasize the negative impacts of the Populares and take it to a very simplistic degree. The bare minimum threshold of the Populist faction should at least improve public order.

If a more nuanced rework can't make it into the development as of launch I sincerely hope it is at some point in the future as a free part or as a part of some more detailed dlc. If any dev reads these threads please c.f.

Wiseman, T. P., Remembering the Roman People: Essays on Late-Republican Politics and Literature (Oxford, 2009).
 
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Denkt

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Agreed. I feel that by hewing to the primary historical texts of the Roman Republic most game developers over-emphasize the negative impacts of the Populares and take it to a very simplistic degree.
In EU: Rome they do allow you to pass laws that reduce corruption and such but the faction itself is bad.
 

Antediluvian Monster

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We do not know how military traditions will work or even the military itself. Given how other paradox games work I think military traditions will not only represent the core army but also auxilia, mercenaries and probably the navy.

It makes no sense to put mercenaries and similar under traditions since they were regional, purely dependent on where you were at and what was available. If Carthage ends up in Anatolia I'm sure they'll end up recruiting Galatians, while Egypt pushing into western mediterranean might end up recruiting Gauls.
 

Denkt

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It makes no sense to put mercenaries and similar under traditions since they were regional, purely dependent on where you were at and what was available. If Carthage ends up in Anatolia I'm sure they'll end up recruiting Galatians, while Egypt pushing into western mediterranean might end up recruiting Gauls.
In paradox games, army modifiers tend to affect all units in your army which would include foreign soldiers. Tradition is also something you do not start with but have to develop for a point cost. Anyway they want Carthage to have a different army than Greece but how different we have no idea.
 

Denkt

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@Johan What are the advantages of having the Populist faction in charge or a populist leader?
In EU: Rome there is no direct advantage but the problem is how to avoid the populists which is not easy to do. There is some indirect advantages as they do allow you to pass certain laws other factions would not.

Shouldn't the Populist faction get some kind of bonus, like decreased national unrest or something?

No they should not. If you get populists it mean the people are already discontent and wants reforms. It is like saying that rebels should reduce unrest.