Can you completely depopulate city or it will turn into settlement first?
Imperator - Development Diary - 12th August
- Thread starter Arheo
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Can you completely depopulate city or it will turn into settlement first?
Currently, yes you can, and it will turn into a colonizable territory, but still remain a city when you resettle it. Dont know if the few buildings that come with the city itself and not with the city population (those obviously get destroyed earlier, as the city starves or loses pops for other reasons) survive this though, or if you need to rebuild from scratch.
To Solve This, I would add that The civilization Value of a Province make natives resistant to cultural conversion, the higher the harder ( similar how EUIV works)
In places with low civilization people will turn " romanized " faster.
- Historical data, Greeks, Persians, Hebrews and Egyptians really resist cultural conversion, ( from Greeks or Romans, or Persians) = High developed culture, ower conversion, more synergy.
- Gaullic, Celts, North Africans, Germans, Balkans, not so much = Low developed culture equals faster conversion
- Genocides, Land grab, exclusion, citizens rights ( for primary culture), all makes the conversion of a province faster.
but also, education, promotions, citizenship grants, military service, provide a boost to conversion.
- I know this is quite hard to understand by today values, but the higher the culture, level of civilization, the harder to convert, the more primitive the easiest.
America is a good example, all stone age civilizations, none resisted colonization, same in the places of Africa that were colonized ( not just conquered) religion and language changed fast... but in asia, Indians, Chineses, etc, all resisted pretty well, ( religion/cultue ) same middle east or Europe, (all talking EUIV timeframe)
Migration attraction? Sounds like less micromanagement and having things flow more naturally. I like the idea.
Idea: every x freemen across a province gives it an import route, where x needs some very careful balancing.
Citizens should give extra trade routes, freemen produce city goods and province investment that give trade routes should be changed to increase trade income of the province.
It would make tribal nations super good at converting since they have low civilization value. It would also make stuff that increase civilization value bad.
Better would be to have a policy per Culture Group with influence converison speed, since there is only about 25 Culture Groups it would not be too much to manage and a similar system can be done with religions.
Greetings all!
In today’s dev diary, we’ll be covering the details of the reworked population simulation in the Cicero update. As a small note: those opting in to the Cicero open beta will already have experienced many of these changes in action.
Reworking the Simulation
Perhaps one of the largest tasks in the Cicero update has been the creation of an organic, living population simulation, which reacts to, and interacts with, the fabric of the game.
Up to and including the Pompey update, the manipulation of pops required direct player involvement, either through manual pop conversion/assimilation, or through the invoking of an appropriate governor policy.
In Cicero, all aspects of the pop simulation will be dynamic, driven by situation, and occur over time in any given territory.
Each poptype will have unique base speeds for assimilation, conversion, promotion and migration, which will be modified by numerous local factors such as local unrest, differing dominant culture or religion, and city/settlement status.
In addition, territories will have a desired ratio for each poptype, and population will promote or demote to attempt to fill this ratio. Promotion and demotion will increase in speed based on the size of the territory they are resident within, rendering it possible for large cities to have functional social mobility.
Migration
Migration is a new concept to Imperator, both replacing and augmenting in equal measure the pop movement feature included in the base game.
Every territory will now have a Migration Attraction value, derived primarily from how much free pop capacity is present:
Pops within a territory will consider any territory that is either neighboring, within the same Province, or if coastal, a Port province, as a valid migration target. If the attraction of a potential target is higher than the territory in which they reside, a migration will begin. Only 1 pop can be migrating from a territory at any one time.
Importantly, Slaves will not migrate of their own volition, they must instead by moved manually. For Tribal nations, tribesmen may be moved manually. Both these actions will cost gold, and rather than moving each pop individually, a more accessible menu has been created:
Sieges, low food supply, and outright starvation will cause pops to flee their homes, bringing a new dynamic to warfare and attrition.
Interaction with the City and Settlement feature detailed in last week's dev diary is high; you will be experiencing a much more centralized, city-weighted population distribution as the game progresses, using settlements primarily as resource production sites.
As before, these changes are available in the Cicero open beta branch if you feel like checking them out.
/Arheo
Sounds awesome and a step in the right direction. Just don't make the conversion/assimilation/migration occur too fast; it was in general a slow and gradual process taking several decades or even centuries. People very often maintained their local cultural identities, independent of who ruled them. Except for provincials in Italy, Gaul, and Britain becoming Romanised, but that's an exception and even that took time.
It would be nice, if there was more contact with the community in these dev diaries.
I'm much closer to buying the game because of this pops change. What's holding me back is the seeming randomness of which class of pop promotes (if I've understood that correctly). Is it intentionally random? Why not use one of the many other variables to determine pop class promotion (buildings, resources, optimal ratio)?
Population promotion is by no means random. It is pretty much completely deterministic. If a teeritory has pop ratios that differ from the ”ideal ratio” they will peomote or demote accordingly. The order for which they do this may or may not be random, but that doesnt really matter.
there is a hierarchy of pop-types and a visible ”ideal pop ratio” for each. The ideal ratio is different pending govt type and can be affected by buildings (local effect) and laws (global effect).
Thanks Todie, that makes it a bit clearer. But still: why is the order random? Surely that could be determined as well?
Somewhat unrelated, but are you planning to delve a bit more into unique heritages (especially for end game tags such as Gaul, Dacia, etc.)?
One of my favorite feature in Eu4 is how much a set national ideas can change your playstyle. With heritages, I was hoping for something of the like, but I was a bit underwhelmed by the "capital terrain based" generic heritages. I don't expect the variety of Eu4, but I think culture based heritages (such as Hellenic or Dahae at the moment) are much more interesting than the forest heritage.
One of my favorite feature in Eu4 is how much a set national ideas can change your playstyle. With heritages, I was hoping for something of the like, but I was a bit underwhelmed by the "capital terrain based" generic heritages. I don't expect the variety of Eu4, but I think culture based heritages (such as Hellenic or Dahae at the moment) are much more interesting than the forest heritage.
In the update timeline they said that this would be the focus for the next patch.
Does this mean that a particularly bad war can devastate a province for decades or even centuries if not heavily re-invested in?
Decades yes. Centuries though.. well, not really.
Basically, if the province starts to starve and does so for long enough, then most of the population will either migrate out of there to a neighbouring province or a port (not neccesarily belonging to the same nation) or die off (though that usually happens quite slowly relative to the population).
Cities are usually the quickest to depopulate in such a situation, and as their population reduces, so does their building limit, and the buildings that exceed it are automatically dismantled. Another potentially important thing with starvation is that an empty food stockpile among other effects results in -50% defensiveness to every territory within the province.
This means even unfortified provinces are captured twice as fast, and so, if the war is relatively even, then a back and forth of occupation and recapture is likely to occur, and, as the former will probably enslave quite a few pops each time it happens, prolonged warfare combined with starvation can potentially kill off or displace the majority of the pops within the warzone.
Usually thought, wars tend to be decided too quickly and decisively for that to happen. But should there be a particularly bloody one that lasts for like 5 or more years and is mostly contained to one or just a few provinces, then, yeah, sure, there is the potential for a lot of devastation to happen, especially when units that take attrition consume local food in order not to, so the food stockpile can be emptied quite quickly even if nothing is captured. Those wars are rare however, though much less so in multiplayer.
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