Imperator Dev Clash - Tuesdays 15:00 CET

[blackninja9939]

What I think everyone is trying to say is that the last dev clash has made several issues with the current game design quite evident and those issues are:

1. Mercenary spam making manpower redundant past midgame, because as long as you have enough gold you have an endless supply of potential soldiers too, all available for hire with a click of a button.

2. Lack of a real war exhaustion accumulating on either side of a giant war that spans the whole mediterrenean and lasts for half a century, if not more. Not only is internal stability of most countries involved not threatened, there are no signs of real economic consequences of such a war. Yes, the economies have largery stagnated, but they haven't regressed and are in fact, still slowly getting better, which, considering the scale of those wars, is a glaring problem.

3. Lack of consequences of enormous casualties on country populations. If Rome alone has lost 4 million soldiers, their population should most definitely not have grown, yet it has. That is 4 million people we're talking about, and likely far, far more, due to the famines, diseases and general devastation that'd occur due to such a war. There should, imho be some mechanics that'd result in pop numbers declining sharply due to all the deaths, either through a reduction of pop growth tied to missing manpower in the pool, or through outright pop deaths.

Now, whether any of those have much to do with mana or lack thereof - I believe there's no real reason to hate on that mechanic, as abstract as it is. It is just a matter of fine tuning everything so that it works fine together, and, whether you replaced mana with money, some sliders, or anything really, it'd still need to be balanced to work well with everything else.

We've also noticed those issues, we were the ones playing it after all
I agree entirely with all the things you raised, mercs are too plentiful and easy to throw at fights if you have money, war exhaustion can be gotten rid of a bit too easily and casualties can be made up a bit too easy by using mercs as a stop gap until manpower fills back up.

Thank you for answering my post. Perhaps ignorant was too strong a word and I sincerely apologise, it wasn’t done with malicious intent or ridicule of u and the devs hard work in creating this game Sorry

I just think in terms of some mechanics that can be reduced with mana like war exhaustion, it can be seen as abit gamey that decades of war, casualties can be reduced so quickly, hence we would not get to see the effects or the simulation of such devastating wars, and therefore will come to the conclusion that mana is not a good Mechanic.

No worries, I don't disagree with the issues, just that the root problem is mana as an entire concept as opposed to the way mana can be used around those issues and how the systems can interact with other systems

 

[Oglesby]

The only thing I can really see NEEDING mana is some of the character interactions, as a way of simulating your rulers gravitas and political currency.

Isn't this "mana" by definition an abstraction of political currency? Not some magic cookie points that are literally given out but an abstraction of some activity or interaction that you are spending your capital to gain that affect you desire. When you are reducing war exhaustion by clicking that button you are possibly giving a rousing speech that convinces the people that the war is necessary. Do I need Paradox to tell me what exactly I am doing when I press that button? I think not, that is outside of the scope of the game. If I want a better roleplay feel or to write an after action report I can come up with what those expenditures of this political capital are.

 

[cristofolmc]

Multiple of those suggestions are about the specific issue of mercs and their impacts which is something we've already noticed from the dev clash, not really applicable to the wider point I was making. Manpower is partially tied to pops already the amount you get is based on pops, sure more stuff can be added to tie them closer together, is that necessarily good or fun is a different question.

You call me ignorant yet you seem to think that if we don't respond to something (which nobody has time to do for every post cause its not actually part of our jobs unless you are Rod) we are not thinking about the issues and that we are ignoring all these player ideas to solve the problem, especially when I can go through this exact thread for the last few pages and find multiple places where people say to get rid of mana and do not give any form of a solution or one that has problems already mentioned in my other post

So one of the problems is that massive WWII level war produces no significant internal problems because there is a magic button that makes it go away, de facto disabling good game features such us unrest, loyalty, civil wars, rebelions etc. And you are saying we dont give any form of a solution? They solution you created it yourselfs. You just disabled it adding magic mana buttons that makes problems go away. Smh...

You've given the solution with cool balance anti snowballing mechanics. What about not introducing magic mana buttons that disable those? What other form of solution you want us to give you than the one devs brilliantly came up with those? Just let them play out, dont block them giving us magic buttons to dumb down the game. And Im not against mana per se. YOu just abuse it so much the game and many of its features lose their purpose.

 

[Denkt]

This is why mercenaries should become more and more reluctant the more of them have already died, i.e. the maintenance should go higher because the risk of ending up in the meat grinder gets higher.

Yes it is getting pretty crazy to see mercs join a country that simply send them to die in the meatgrinder against Another country doing the same thing.

Some sort of reputation system with the mercs would help alot here to make sense of stuff that currently don't make sense.

No worries, I don't disagree with the issues, just that the root problem is mana as an entire concept as opposed to the way mana can be used around those issues and how the systems can interact with other systems

Some of the problems could probably be solved by adding extra cost such as tyranny for reducing war exhuastion which would remove one problem but add Another problem, I see you have added corruption for bribes so that seems like a natural progress.

Other problems can be solved by limiting when the action can be taken such as blocking or limiting stability increase (by increasing it cost or something) if fighting an offensive war so you can not just remove the negtive stability the same day as you go to war.​

 

[Warthull]

We've also noticed those issues, we were the ones playing it after all
I agree entirely with all the things you raised, mercs are too plentiful and easy to throw at fights if you have money, war exhaustion can be gotten rid of a bit too easily and casualties can be made up a bit too easy by using mercs as a stop gap until manpower fills back up.


No worries, I don't disagree with the issues, just that the root problem is mana as an entire concept as opposed to the way mana can be used around those issues and how the systems can interact with other systems

Thanks for taking the time to reply, it does help to put (at least me) at ease to know you guys are aware of the specific concerns raised and working on what can/must be improved.

If i may give a suggestion, mentioning at some part of the weekly stream (e.g. at the start) some of the changes you guys made to address issues mentioned by the community here (that you also identified as being a problem) that would be very appreciated

 

[KaiserJohan]

Yeah we have extensively discussed all these things internally. I can't speak for the I:R team but with release around the corner it realistically won't be changed during this devclash though unless the inferior Johan ninjas in last-minute changes to the build

Personally, as for mana, it has both pros & cons. As awesome as it would be to have everything be based soley around hard currencies like money and population without seemingly arbritary/hard constraints it's difficult to make a fun, balanced game around it. Some magic numbers are a necessary evil to make the greater whole come together but it dosn't mean the ambition isn't there

 

[Shade205]

Yeah we have extensively discussed all these things internally. I can't speak for the I:R team but with release around the corner it realistically won't be changed during this devclash though unless the inferior Johan ninjas in last-minute changes to the build

Personally, as for mana, it has both pros & cons. As awesome as it would be to have everything be based soley around hard currencies like money and population without seemingly arbritary/hard constraints it's difficult to make a fun, balanced game around it. Some magic numbers are a necessary evil to make the greater whole come together but it dosn't mean the ambition isn't there

I think there's a nice balance the way "mana" is being used and I like how it keeps the game balanced.

Mercs are definitely an issue and I'm glad you guys have already found that out. I'm sure it can be addressed in a number of ways, ideally before release or hopefully soon after.

 

[mlatiteljgejeva]

i wouldnt mind getting more mana features as long as they prevent these total war style situations

we are in the mana to our knees, make it go up to thighs if necessary

 

[Palando]

Yeah we have extensively discussed all these things internally. I can't speak for the I:R team but with release around the corner it realistically won't be changed during this devclash though unless the inferior Johan ninjas in last-minute changes to the build

Personally, as for mana, it has both pros & cons. As awesome as it would be to have everything be based soley around hard currencies like money and population without seemingly arbritary/hard constraints it's difficult to make a fun, balanced game around it. Some magic numbers are a necessary evil to make the greater whole come together but it dosn't mean the ambition isn't there

So it seems that we'll get more sessions of this WW type It won't be fun to watch that another whole session.

BTW, have you found the reason why you couldn't hire any mercenaries anymore at some point?

 

[KaiserJohan]

So it seems that we'll get more sessions of this WW type It won't be fun to watch that another whole session.

BTW, have you found the reason why you couldn't hire any mercenaries anymore at some point?

Hopefully something should happen next session to break up the stalemate

Might not be a bug, I think it's something about requiring an increasing amount of money in the bank the more mercs you have hired in order to enlist more.

 

[Wavey]

Yeah we have extensively discussed all these things internally. I can't speak for the I:R team but with release around the corner it realistically won't be changed during this devclash though unless the inferior Johan ninjas in last-minute changes to the build

Does that include no changes to the effects of truce breaking? For while rejigging the mana system would obviously take time and planning, just fixing that seems more reasonable and would be good for multiplayer.

 

[mlatiteljgejeva]

Does that include no changes to the effects of truce breaking? For while rejigging the mana system would obviously take time and planning, just fixing that seems more reasonable and would be good for multiplayer.

truce breaking is the least problem, i hope people dont forget that as the time goes on

 

[Rabid]

Isn't this "mana" by definition an abstraction of political currency? Not some magic cookie points that are literally given out but an abstraction of some activity or interaction that you are spending your capital to gain that affect you desire. When you are reducing war exhaustion by clicking that button you are possibly giving a rousing speech that convinces the people that the war is necessary. Do I need Paradox to tell me what exactly I am doing when I press that button? I think not, that is outside of the scope of the game. If I want a better roleplay feel or to write an after action report I can come up with what those expenditures of this political capital are.

This, please. Mana is great if and only if it gives interesting, meaningful tradeoffs. Being able to utterly remove WE from the game by dumping some mana into it is an absolutely awful feature in EU4 and it's just as bad in Imperator. By the same token, there's nothing wrong with the system conceptually and it's a very useful abstraction in many cases. There should be costs in the game other than just monetary ones, or those associated with characters (loyalty etc).

 

[Oglesby]

This, please. Mana is great if and only if it gives interesting, meaningful tradeoffs. Being able to utterly remove WE from the game by dumping some mana into it is an absolutely awful feature in EU4 and it's just as bad in Imperator. By the same token, there's nothing wrong with the system conceptually and it's a very useful abstraction in many cases. There should be costs in the game other than just monetary ones, or those associated with characters (loyalty etc).

You quote me as if you are agreeing with me and yet you claim that dumping mana and clicking a button is bad which is completely opposite of what I am saying. I am confused.

I feel there are currently meaning full trade offs, you cannot use that 'mana' for other things.
I think that being able to click a button and spend mana to do things is ok and easier to balance that many disjointed things.
There are costs other than monetary or character costs, that would be 'mana'.

 

[Rabid]

You quote me as if you are agreeing with me and yet you claim that dumping mana and clicking a button is bad which is completely opposite of what I am saying. I am confused.

I feel there are currently meaning full trade offs, you cannot use that 'mana' for other things.
I think that being able to click a button and spend mana to do things is ok and easier to balance that many disjointed things.
There are costs other than monetary or character costs, that would be 'mana'.

I got your post and another one on basically the same topic with a slightly different slant mixed up. I'm agreeing but I also think that the apparent ease of quickly reducing WE is harmful to gameplay in the same way that it is in EU4. WE should be an almost unavoidable "timer" eventually forcing you to make peace unless you're completely crushing the enemy unopposed.

 

[Streetpanda]

The more mercenaries you have, the more expensive they get. Maybe even an increase in disloyalty to your generals too.

The longer a war goes on, the less likely a mercenary army is to join and accept your offer.

Mana and gold seems fine.

 

[KHK001]

Hopefully something should happen next session to break up the stalemate

KJ should ally Armenia or Egypt to break the stalemate

 

[barbatus]

Why do you even get stab loss for declaring war on that one guy that's eating everything in his path? People complain about truce break. Without truce break, all clay would be Roman. I prefer the former over the latter.

Truces were usually sworn to the gods, and so breaking a truce is considered sacrilegious. The ancient people were usually quite superstitious (for example, in Rome, major events such as consular elections or battles were usually preceded by augury, and officials usually did not go against the outcome of the augury). Hence, while perhaps some individuals might be amenable to committing an offense to the gods by truce breaking to gain temporal benefits, many would be horrified by the act. This corresponds to stability hits in the game. Of course, "truce breaks" did happen in that era (although most truces are respected). For example, after the First Punic War, pretty much the entirety of Carthage's army (all mercenaries) revolted. The mercenary armies in Sardinia revolted also, and asked for Roman protection twice (240 BC and 238 BC), Rome agreed the second time, and when Carthage eventually started preparation to quell the revolt, Rome accused Carthage of breaking truce, claiming that Carthage was preparing armies against Rome. This ended with Rome annexing Sardinia and Corsica from Carthage. Rome was probably "in the wrong", but the situation was complex and they had some justification for their actions, at least for their own people. If the mercenaries in Sardinia had not revolted, Rome probably would not have seized the island, even when Carthage was in dire straits with its entire army in revolt in Africa. That the Romans resisted the temptation to capture Carthage when it had no army, declined to protect the Sardinian revolters the first time, and even helped Carthage out initially is testament to the power of the truce.

Regarding the dev clash, Egypt is in a great position, with no player enemies and his immediate neighbors in a progress-less war with Rome. I think the smart move for Egypt is to move on Macedon (maybe Epirus) and conquer Anatolia and Greece. The Coalition is more or less evenly matched with Rome and is in no position to fight a two front war, and Egypt can try to convince them that after taking Macedon, he will replace Macedon in the coalition against Rome, so the Coalition should continue putting all their troops to the Roman front and allow Egypt to swallow up Macedon. In addition, Egypt should extort Rome for money in return for not attacking Rome in the current conflict. Either the Coalition winning or Rome winning would be equal outcomes for Egypt, since even if Rome wins, Egypt can always join the Coalition later; the current war shows that Egypt + the Coalition is a sufficient counter to Rome. Moreover, Armenia, the only potential threat, has other problems to the east to worry about and is in no position to challenge Egypt.

Also, this dev clash is perhaps Kaiser Johan's finest performance among all his dev clashes. The thing I admire most about him is how incredibly unsalty he is about the situation. Even with his entire fanbase indignant about the "hugbox" to contain him, he remains cheerful about the entire situation and recognizes that it's just a game among friends. Many other players would have been complaining about the ganging up, and that he isn't doing so is a testament to his good sportsmanship.

 

[DystopianAlphaOmega]

Perhaps things like reducing war exhaustion could, instead of having an immediate effect, have one over time. So instead of reducing war exhaustion resulting in an immediate drop of 2 war exhaustion points, you could have it reduce war exhaustion by 0.1 per month over 24 months or something like that. You could also make it so that you can't have more than one instance of this, making it more difficult to deal with large amounts of war exhaustion quickly.

Optionally, you could also have the cost be paid over that time period instead of all at once (say 2 mana per month instead of 50 all at once). With this system you could then turn reducing war exhaustion on or off as required (less clicks and more flexible). Reducing war exhaustion would still represent active efforts by the ruler/government to rally the nation/people and alleviate the worst effects of the war.

Anyways, just spit-balling some alternative ideas without needing to completely rework the mana system.

 

[Arbus]

Perhaps things like reducing war exhaustion could, instead of having an immediate effect, have one over time. So instead of reducing war exhaustion resulting in an immediate drop of 2 war exhaustion points, you could have it reduce war exhaustion by 0.1 per month over 24 months or something like that. You could also make it so that you can't have more than one instance of this, making it more difficult to deal with large amounts of war exhaustion quickly.

Optionally, you could also have the cost be paid over that time period instead of all at once (say 2 mana per month instead of 50 all at once). With this system you could then turn reducing war exhaustion on or off as required (less clicks and more flexible). Reducing war exhaustion would still represent active efforts by the ruler/government to rally the nation/people and alleviate the worst effects of the war.

Anyways, just spit-balling some alternative ideas without needing to completely rework the mana system.

I really like this, it should be applied to much more than WE. Using mana should never solve your problems immediately, but instead add modifiers that work over time. In some instances you would need to have mana saved upfront, in other instances you would pay mana per turn while the effect is active. This is already done in EU4 like having active policies, but for example, paying to get stability up immediately shouldn't be possible, it should only had a modifier that helps stability grow gradually.