Imperator DD : Civilization, Buildings and Macedon

Imperator DD : Civilization, Buildings and Macedon

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cristofolmc

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So are the sources of output going to be tweaked? I like how pop happiness affects it, it makes sense, but as of now, the numbers are ridiculous. As long as your pop happiness is reasonable, your output is already 100% or more.

I'd like there to be less passive sources of output. I'd like the idea of output as production efficiency, and I like the idea of giving the player more capacity to influence it, with buildings like the ones coming in 2.0. If I want to take a path where I micromanage and make my society more productive than a militaristic one, I should be able to, and it should show. But if almost all of the pops are just as productive as long as they are happy, its difficult to differenciate societies.
 
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Gilbert95

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I want to be able to see where I can build while simultaneously being able to see the city details (demographics, buildings, etc) so that I have enough information to decide what to build.
This isn't exactly what you are asking for, but it might help - how about a "next" button on the city details screen that takes you to the next city, allowing you to quicly cycle through cities that have open building slots?
 
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Todie

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So are the sources of output going to be tweaked? I like how pop happiness affects it, it makes sense, but as of now, the numbers are ridiculous. As long as your pop happiness is reasonable, your output is already 100% or more.
I suppose you mean the numbers are ridiculous in 1.5 ? if not, lets elaborate on this together and throw some numbers around and see what sticks..

From what is known of output in 2.0, the pop output% before mitigation by city-infrastructure will be fluctuating more and have lower resting-points:

A territory will ‘break even’ at 30 civilization value, assuming no other modifiers are present. The output of territories where the dominant culture is not integrated will be subject to a further penalty, as will settlements:

4.png

looking at these modifiers, many territories will struggle to reach a positive number of %output. Compared to 1.5, this vastly increases the relevance of modifiers to the output of particular pop types or localities and modifiers from province policy and governor or govt office etc. I imagine, for tribes, the "tribesmen output" modifier will be several magnitudes more valued than it is in 1.5, simply as a consequence of how the math on all this works out - the average pop output of a tribe might be something like 10% given that their land has low civ value and is mostly settlements. Then a bump of 5% from a modifier is in relative terms an increase of x1.5

in fact, the base -30 combined with the -15 for settlements could make pop output for tribes in particular extremely volatile. It can be tweaked in some interesting ways though, like adding additional sources of tribesmen output to some output offices.


I'd like there to be less passive sources of output. I'd like the idea of output as production efficiency, and I like the idea of giving the player more capacity to influence it, with buildings like the ones coming in 2.0. If I want to take a path where I micromanage and make my society more productive than a militaristic one, I should be able to, and it should show. But if almost all of the pops are just as productive as long as they are happy, its difficult to differenciate societies.

To the extent that I agree, it does seem like cities that push close to their population capacity and fill their building slots will be significantly more productive than others - the same will go for the pops within them. This due to the civilization value.

as for becoming more productive if you are not militaristic, I would point out, this isn't an industrialized era, so I think its reasonable to expect some limitations of how much-focused economies can be scaled up, as compared to games set in later eras.... Though it does seem like 2.0 will convey the opportunity cost of war, because pops raised as levies cant be taxed for output until they are released, and some may die. frequent or long wars will be costly. wars kept brief or lean in other ways will have lower opportunity costs and may yield resources that can be reinvested to scale up more over time, especially considering the presumed increased value the new buildings can give, by pushing up civ-value and pop-output (Parameters that are not perpetually at 100% regardless the way they often are in 1.5)



... I expect we will differentiate through our choice of invention-paths, where to build and what (likely you still cant consistently use up every building slot as it opens up - or you may not always want to), we will differentiate through our choice of governors and important ministers, what families and factions we favour. and as always - in Where we choose to war and not war,


Edit: see reiteration with some more distinctions and numbers in my post below.
 
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Todie

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This isn't exactly what you are asking for, but it might help - how about a "next" button on the city details screen that takes you to the next city, allowing you to quickly cycle through cities that have open building slots?

To be honest, I don't think this has a place in IR. it's common and valid to have various unused building slots throughout your lands. building slots are a resource, and gold is one. gold is usually more scarce. commandeering the construction of a building is an active choice, and shouldn't be signalled as a passive one.

(though you can / should be able to use the macro builder or other tools to commandeer construction of many things in many places if you so choose).
 
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Jamey

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This isn't exactly what you are asking for, but it might help - how about a "next" button on the city details screen that takes you to the next city, allowing you to quicly cycle through cities that have open building slots?
I‘m definitely amenable to other ways of solving the problem. :)
 

Jamey

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Macro builder shows relevant data, like it shows manpower of a city when building recruitment ground or number or base trade routes when building a market.

Putting in additional data would a bit redundant. Like why would you need to see the research output of the city if your building a tax office.
For major cities, I know what I want to build.

For minor cities, I need to see what the state of the city is before I know that I want to build a particular building.

The macro builder workflow is exactly backwards of what I want for cities.
 

Gilbert95

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For major cities, I know what I want to build.

For minor cities, I need to see what the state of the city is before I know that I want to build a particular building.

The macro builder workflow is exactly backwards of what I want for cities.
Sorry if I missed this earlier, but what is the workflow you imagine?
 
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AggaWackTan

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Looks great but one niggly thing. I think the map icons for ports (League of Corinth picture) and the icons for mountain passes and cities (last picture) are all white and look like a WIP still. I'm just hoping they'll be coloured in to 'polish' them. I noticed on other pictures regarding the Atlas mode the stars look a bit lacking in colour too.
 
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Todie

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... While I was thinking further regarding pop output. I realised its apparently a baseline modifier - its not the actual baseline itself that is listed, not the way we’re used to seeing it in current and earlier patches.

1611164125183.png


So the actual pop output is 100+[output modifiers]

For reference, that means that a settlement in tribal lands will have something like the following parameters for output:

Output modifiers:
Base: -30
Civilization value(10): +10
Settlement: -15
(+governor modifier +misc)

Sum 100-30+10-15 = 65%

That 65 will then be the base that gets pop-specific modifiers added, and gets multiplicatively augmented by the happiness for each corresponding demographic

This change is not quite as huge as i thought at first glance (yestersay) but still significant and I think quite welcome. The potential for several negative modifiers to compound, resulting in a relative increase of output modifiers the lower the output sum goes - similar to what has been the case with pop happiness in current / prior patches.

For reference, that 10 civ-value settlement at 65~ output would get decreased to 35~ if it doesn’t have a majority of integrates pops. - in relative terms thats a decrease of x0.54.

Comparatively, a city at 50 civ-value would have an output of 120 with an integrated majority, or an output of 90 without an integrated majority. In relative terms thats a decrease of x0.75

... compunding positive output modifiers can surely be very beneficial for the most developed and densely populated areas, but the marginal benefit will often be larger in less developed areas, at least to the extent that their output isn't hamstrung by low happiness.
 
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Samitte

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