Imperator DD : Civilization, Buildings and Macedon

[Arheo]

Greetings all!

Today, @Chopmist will be taking you through the mission trees for the final nation we’re covering in the Heirs of Alexander content pack: Macedon.

Before we deal with the bloodthirsty Kassander however, it’s time to explain some of the mechanics I’ve been teasing on twitter over the holidays.

Civilization Value

There are some significant changes coming to civ value. As an abstraction, it has never quite resonated with me - it is used at various points in the game to represent different things, and can be largely ignored beyond a certain point.

For the purposes of this rework, local civilization value is being more explicitly defined as the state of the infrastructure and sanitation of any given location. The monthly growth of civilization is not being changed explicitly, and this represents the education level and tradition of learning in a location. A territory with low growth will take longer to reach the cap, as before.

Where previously, civilization had a significant impact on the happiness of poptypes, this is being reduced. This is in part due to the cultural rework which focused on cultural poptypes and citizenship - after all, why should a citizen or noble resent living in a low infrastructure province if that is the norm for the area? Instead, the cultural impact of your pops will be far more important to the stability of your nation.

Civilization will now have a significant impact on the output capabilities of a province, and should be regarded as one of the most important local values. As such, we’re giving it pride of place in the new territory UI:

The effects of civilization are similarly important:

As you can see, the civilization value of a territory still has some effect on happiness, but far more impact on the overall output. Population output is now also tracked in the territory UI:

A territory will ‘break even’ at 30 civilization value, assuming no other modifiers are present. The output of territories where the dominant culture is not integrated will be subject to a further penalty, as will settlements:

(nb: the current starting max civilization level has not yet been adjusted for any territories - it will appear as over the cap in many of these WIP screenshots)

Pops will be relatively happy living in rural provinces, but will produce less compared to their urban brethren. This can of course be offset, as we will find out later.

Generating Civilization Cap

Along with these changes, an important change to the way in which we generate civilization cap is being introduced:

The contributions from government type and oratory technology have been drastically reduced, and are likely to be reduced even further. Instead, local factors become far more relevant - namely: buildings.

Most buildings will now contribute directly to civilization capacity in a territory, providing a huge amount more local variance in development levels throughout the map. Later in the game, you can expect to see flourishing capitals approaching 70-90% civilization, with values higher than this being reserved for those truly keen on eking the most out of their territories.

Building Changes

Related to the above, the building system is undergoing a minor refactor. As an addendum, I’d like to point out that while I’m aware many of you want a deep cultural building system, that is not something that we have the scope to address in this update.

City buildings have now been split into two categories -limited and unlimited. The top row of buildings are theoretically unlimited, and will function similarly to before - albeit with some rebalance, and now adding to civilization cap.

Most of the repeatable buildings will grant 2 civilization cap, with the notable exception of Aqueducts, which will function as before, granting flat local population capacity.

The bottom row of buildings are limited to a finite and unmodifiable (during gameplay) quantity. This functionality will of course be available to modders. Many of these limited buildings (with the exception of ratio buildings) will also require unlocking in the invention trees.

Pop ratio buildings are limited to 3, somewhat limiting the viability of mono-pop cities:

Finite buildings will be ‘capped’ visually to ensure you are aware you’ve reached the cap:

All the numbers you’re seeing are still subject to balance, of course. These changes aim to reduce some of the micromanagement and choice paralysis associated with having up to 16 unique buildings in an arbitrary number of cities, as well as adding some depth and progression to city building by tying buildings to the new technology system. In addition, the ‘gardening’ feeling is something that I know many of our players enjoy - playing tall and getting the most out of your pops should be enhanced by many of these changes.

Settlements will not be entirely left untouched by these changes, either. One of the big choices you’ll have to make during your campaign, if you head down the civic invention tree, is likely to interest those with a penchant for construction:

While still likely subject to balance, this exclusive choice will enable you to more definitively choose a ‘tall’ or ‘wide’ focus. Note that along with this change, all settlement buildings will still be unique - you are unable to sport a settlement with 2 mines, however you would be able to construct both a mine and a fort, or a barracks and tribal settlement.

/Arheo

 

[PDX_Chop]

Hello there, it’s Joe from Content again, back to talk you through the next set of missions coming in the Heirs of Alexander expansion. This time we’ll be looking at Macedon.

The story of this kingdom is a complex one, the crown flitting between the dynasty of Alexander’s successor Cassander and a myriad of petty claimants until the Antigonid dynasty eventually secured the throne, remaining there until the Roman conquest.

The Fates decided the Antipatrid dynasty would be short lived, but things were fairly stable in Macedon after the Antigonids took power, with wars against barbarians, Greek leagues, and the Illyrian tribes but no ambitious campaigns on the scale of the Diadochi wars until the Roman conquest. This need not be the case under your leadership, and there will be many opportunities to make moves.

Ultimately Macedon received three mission trees, with the latter two being available to any Macedonian country that supplants the Antipatrids in Pella, including the Antigonids, as well as the original tag.

Antipatros’ Legacy
By 304BC, Cassander had ruled Macedon as regent for thirteen years, and, unlike the other Diadochi, never claimed the title of basileus for himself. He has seen victory in the wars against Polyperchon and Olympias, securing Thessaly and successfully contesting the Antigonids in Greece, though his murder of the Argead heirs and harsh treatment of the Greek cities have given him a reputation for cruelty - embellished by the other successors to their benefit.

Cassander’s immediate objectives are to prevail in the Greek wars against Antigonus, Chalcis being an important target, and ensure they do not reconquer Corinth, the symbolic center of Macedonian authority in the region. Establishing the League of Corinth is an objective Macedon shares with the Antigonids, creating a strong and loyal Greek feudatory if they can push the other successors from the peninsula.

To help achieve these ends, Macedon has choices to make on the diminishing gold mines of Pangaeum, which funded Alexander’s initial invasion of Asia, as well as undermining the Athenian democracy to strike at the Antigonid’s hold over Greece, and establishing Antipatreia in Thessaly as an alternative to the Antigonid’s historical city of Demetrias.

The long standing rivalry with the Taulantians and Epirotes will also be a pressing concern, their conquest putting an end to western threats and distractions from the Diadochi wars.

Macedon may also uplift or annex the Paeonian tribes to the north, creating stronger subjects or finally completing Philip II’s campaigns in the region, and continue the Macedonian tradition of recruiting the famed Agrianian javelinmen to permanently bolster their military.

Ultimately, the Antipatrids will turn their de-facto kingship into a reality, formalizing the Antipatrid-Argead dynasty as the new royal line of Macedon.

Hellenic Mastery
But we are not Mace-done yet. As mentioned above, the following trees are available to any Macedonian country which has supplanted Antipatrid Macedon, including the Antigonids. As such, their objectives can overlap with the first Macedonian tree to some degree.

The first is called Hellenic Mastery, and focuses on becoming the wider hegemon and cultural leader of the Greek world, something which Antigonus II and his descendants spent their time on the throne striving for.

Macedon will aim to have their capital rival the sophistication of the old Greek cities, supplanting them as the population and cultural centers of the region. Philosophers may be attracted to the court based on the patronage Antigonus II gave to Zeno of Citium among many others, periodically providing skilled characters.

Becoming the cultural leader of the Greek world will also depend on religious power; developing the important sanctuary of Dion under Mount Olympus will provide access to a new deity, Zeus Olympios, as well as a unique treasure. Control can also be tightened over the famous oracles of Greece, providing periodic events with messages from the gods and pleasing your Hellenic subjects.

Securing the main Greek cities directly will allow you to expand your influence - increasing assimilation speed and tax in the region - while controlling Messene will allow the construction of a fortress at Mount Ithome, a fourth fetter securing control over the Peloponnese which was suggested to Philip V.

Once the major Greek port cities around the Aegean are secured and Macedon has created a Metropolis to rival the cities of the east, the kingdom and dynasty will be secure.

Adriatic Dominance
Lastly, the third mission focuses on expansion westward into Illyria, something which was attempted unsuccessfully by Philip V, whose ambitions provoked the ire of Rome and ultimately led to their invasion of Greece and the end of the Macedonian kingdom.

Macedon will vie to control the Hellenic colonies of the western sea by diplomacy or war, developing a chosen city to become its hub on the Adriatic, and constructing a road over the mountains between it and Pella.

Ultimately this mission will see Macedon establish a foothold in Italia and dominate the entire Adriatic sea, with choices to make on the pirates that roam its waters and the fate of its natives.

That’s all from me!

 

[Arheo]

So tribes will never have happy pops because they lack civ value and urban planning seems also not to help?

I'm not sure how this conclusion was drawn. That's more or less the way it works now, and which I am aiming to change.

I would have thought capping the number of aqueducts would be a very sensible move. Lets say 6. And the requirement to build them should be higher - they were monumental undertakings.

I haven't covered building costs/time in this diary, but there will be changes coming to those too. On the subject of 'megacities' - I'm not keen on them being optimal play, but I am even less keen on an arbitrary 'maximum' capacity. While it may not render them impossible, the new building/civilization system is another step towards reducing how easy or sensible it is to produce them.

 

[Arheo]

I feel like I'm missing something here, is all that empty space next to the pops used for something? Surely it could be used at least to display some values related to pops.

This is where holdings information will be displayed.

 

[PDX_Chop]

I have a question about fate of the Antipatrids: are Cassander and Phillipos doomed to succumb to the scripted diseases , or there is a possibility that it doesn’t happen?

For now this remains unchanged, but he has two others sons and there are other Antipatrids who can inherit.

will the antigonids have access to any of these events if they choose to go the Macedon way?

All content in the latter two trees is available for Antigonids, and other Macedonian nations, if Macedon no longer exists and they own Pella.

 

[PDX_Chop]

While I appreciate some of the changes to building, I have a question regarding the HoA DLC and the Macedonian mission tree. As I understand, the latter Macedonian missions are unavailable if Macedon is still ruled by the Antipatrids, yes? So if someone wants the full Macedon experience, they have to start out as a country which can form Macedon, not Macedon itself?

Ah I didn't make this very clear, the latter missions are available to Antipatrid Macedon AND any other Macedonian country who takes Pella while the original tag no longer exists.

 

[Arheo]

Are you hiding the "respectfully disagrees" under your own posts?

No.

I think only the three more voted emoticons are shown

Yes, it only shows those apparently.

I think it's pretty much a universal consensus that this is terrible and should never be built by anyone...
View attachment 669189
but allow me to propose a change
View attachment 669193

This way we'd get the historical city walls around many of the cities of this period, it would give a strong reason for an army to fall back and garrison a city, and taking it from a well defended... uhh.. defender, would be much harder.

As indicated, all balance subject to change - this building in particular. Not entirely sure I agree that it's useless though. Might be niche, but one can hold up some pretty huge armies through a mountain gate with earthworks; yielding an effective combat width of 9 or 10 if memory serves. They can only be constructed in fort provinces; meaning unless your fort has fallen, you'll always be treated as the defender.

This makes me the big sad.

I'm a fan of these changes, I like the idea of limiting certain buildings, though I would argue that all buildings should be limited (maybe as a ratio? as in you can't build more X until you have more of Y etc) but all the changes are really for nought when the most problematic building in the game is unchanged. The "meta" strategy right now is just to spam aqueducts and these changes really do nothing to address that. People are still going to just make these ahistorical abomination cities with 100 aqueducts pouring enough water in there to make Venice look like a desert. Aqueducts would fit beautifully into that 3 per city catagory, or maybe even X aqueducts per civilisation level... just something to limit the absolute ridiculousness that is right now, and seemingly will still be, encouraged.

There have been additional changes to population capacity % modifiers which render this pretty hard to achieve. Notably, technology itself provides reduced population capacity %, and to receive the invention modifiers to popcap, you have to invest a considerable quantity of innovations to unlock the majority that were pretty much de facto available before. Whatever you're spending in these results in points you aren't spending elsewhere.

Without innovations, I've been hard pressed to get a metropolis above 300 pops (while cheating thoroughly, and building only aqueducts) - I don't see much value in entirely preventing this playstyle for those that wish to engage in it - the important thing is that engaging in it is now something you actively build towards, at the expense of other things.

EDIT: Another honorable mention is perhaps that the various bonuses to output for simply existing in a capital region/province/city have been hugely reduced. Civilization is key to output now - stacking population in somewhere that magically results in higher output is no longer nearly as viable.

 

[Arheo]

That means that the achievement "What have the Romans ever done for us?" (As Rome, own and at least one City with 70 or more Civilization Value in every Province within the Palestine region), will become an hard one; or will you change the requirment, for instance, 50% civ value?

Nope

 

[Arheo]

But this doesn't change something about the necessity of building a lot of aqueducts in order to increase pop capacity, which is required to gain more building slots? So if I want more buildings, I have to use most of the slots for aqueducts, what leads having less slots for other buildings, what leads to cities with a lot of aqueducts and a few other buildings.

The thing that makes aqueducts most valuable is any modifier that increases % population capacity. If you ever reach a point where this value can exceed 150%, then aqueducts can begin to support more pops than are required to build them. Firstly, this should no longer be close to possible due to a long list of balance tweaks. Secondly, Aqueducts do not contribute to civilization capacity, unlike all other building types. Getting civ as high as possible is now, in most situations I've encountered thus far, comparable to stacking more people in a place by building pure aqueducts.

As mentioned in a previous post, it is practically (due to the myriad other system changes) difficult to achieve true megacity currently. I feel like one of the more overlooked changes here, however, is that pop happiness and ratio buildings are capped. It will be difficult/impossible to stack single-modifier super/mega-cities, and the impact of situational or cultural happiness on territories is felt more keenly without the ability to totally offset happiness with unlimited buildings.

It's understandably easy to look at a system in a microcosm and feel that not enough has changed, but do try and take into account the significant technology and invention pacing that acts as a gate to certain aspects of min-max-y playstyles.

 

[PDX_Chop]

In this case, it might be better to tie them to the Macedon tag (form Macedon and unlock 2 missions. Allow Thrace, Egypt and Seleukids to take that decision).

If you are playing as Thrace, Seleukids, Egypt, Antigonids, or another Macedonian nation, own Pella, and Macedon no longer exists, you already are Macedon, and limiting content for people who want to retain their starting tag's identity seems unfair.

Looks like another possible problem. Would a player-controlled Athens be abel to prevent this?

As with other content, we take into account when a player is involved

And what about other concerns raised by the screenshots?

Will you also fix Paeonia’s culture (give them an own) in 2.0?

I can say we will try to address almost all of your concerns, if we can