Impassible Borders, Choke points, and Forts

[Gefallener_Held]

I think part of the problem is that fortifications like the Maginot line are really on a different niveau than standard fortifications as represented by the land fort in this game. I think the problem could be fixed by requiring a minimum level of forts and infrastructure before constructing a new very expensive super fortification, somewhat comparable to a super heavy tank compared to a heavy tank or super heavy battleship to a battleship. This would more accurately represent the maginot and help address the the problem introduced by impassable areas.

 

[HaikuEU]

Level 10 fort all over the place are no historical. Rather than tweaking the cost I would pefer more bonus against forts to be available overtime at different places (techs / . Especially on ships / aircraft / artillery so that with an adequate setup even a 8-10 level fort is bustable at a fair price. This will lower the expected value of such fort later on, so player will have to think twice and anticipate the opponent armies capabilities to see if building a fort is meaningful or not.

 

[Louella]

Someone also mentioned tying the ability to construct the highest level forts to construction tech. I like that in principle, but construction V comes too late in the game to be useful for this, IMO.

That was me, yeah, it seemed like the natural thing to use, to limit proliferation of high level forts within the timescale of the game, and it lines up quite well, with 5 levels of construction tech, and 10 levels of fort, it feels like it fits a lot easier, than odd numbers involving sixes or sevens or something.

The other option would be to go down the route that occurs with Constantinople in Crusader Kings 2 - the Theodosian Walls of Constantinople are classed as level 6 castle walls iirc. And they are the only level 6 castle walls that exist anywhere. Other castles can only build level 5 walls (and only at a relatively late point in the game).
So something like fortifications can only be built to levels 1-5 (possibly depending on construction tech), but there are some level 10 fortifications such as the Maginot Line, that cannot be replicated (within the scope of the game's setting).

 

[SFSLovenought]

That was me, yeah, it seemed like the natural thing to use, to limit proliferation of high level forts within the timescale of the game, and it lines up quite well, with 5 levels of construction tech, and 10 levels of fort, it feels like it fits a lot easier, than odd numbers involving sixes or sevens or something.

The other option would be to go down the route that occurs with Constantinople in Crusader Kings 2 - the Theodosian Walls of Constantinople are classed as level 6 castle walls iirc. And they are the only level 6 castle walls that exist anywhere. Other castles can only build level 5 walls (and only at a relatively late point in the game).
So something like fortifications can only be built to levels 1-5 (possibly depending on construction tech), but there are some level 10 fortifications such as the Maginot Line, that cannot be replicated (within the scope of the game's setting).

How long DID the Maginot Line take?

 

[Gefallener_Held]

How long DID the Maginot Line take?

I looked it up to refresh my memory and it is about what I thought: it seems to have been completed in under ten years, just before war broke out, at a cost of 3 billion Francs. Not sure if that is in today's dollars adjusted for inlfation or in dollars at the time.

I do not think it is a good solution to prevent one from building another maginot line as it takes away from player options. Again I think the solution is to build to leel five which then allows a different, far more costly fortification. The maginot line was not just something like the devil's gardens or Rommels fortifications on the french coastline, it has a complex system of tunnels replete with a railway system in some areas, ie something and above a level one fortification times ten.

 

[Meglok]

I looked it up to refresh my memory and it is about what I thought: it seems to have been completed in under ten years, just before war broke out, at a cost of 3 billion Francs. Not sure if that is in today's dollars adjusted for inlfation or in dollars at the time.

I do not think it is a good solution to prevent one from building another maginot line as it takes away from player options. Again I think the solution is to build to leel five which then allows a different, far more costly fortification. The maginot line was not just something like the devil's gardens or Rommels fortifications on the french coastline, it has a complex system of tunnels replete with a railway system in some areas, ie something and above a level one fortification times ten.

HOI4 timescale again. You can build substantial fortifications in the time scale of HOI4, but I am not sure about level 10 as represented by huge construction projects like the MAginot. But as shown above by the construction time and cost of the Maginot level 10 fortifications were a MAJOR effort and budget item. Fort Eben Emael cost the Belgians 50 million francs and took almost 4 years, and it was only 1 of 4 modern forts the Belgians built from the early 30's up to being invaded. The cost of these forts was one reason their army was outdated, they only had so much money and it was spent on walls instead of guns and tanks.

Add Aluminum in Asia

 

[SFSLovenought]

The thing about cost is misleading, though. A nation in a Total War doesn't need to worry about money and budgeting. Even Belgium could have gotten that built in a fraction of the time if the entire labour force was fanatically determined to make any sacrifices necessary.

 

[mergele]

There is also the issue that in HoI4 we are always focussing a huge amount of industry on single projects. I mean germany after invading france can work on what, 4? projects simultaneusly?

 

[Dalwin]

I looked it up to refresh my memory and it is about what I thought: it seems to have been completed in under ten years, just before war broke out, at a cost of 3 billion Francs. Not sure if that is in today's dollars adjusted for inlfation or in dollars at the time.

I do not think it is a good solution to prevent one from building another maginot line as it takes away from player options. Again I think the solution is to build to leel five which then allows a different, far more costly fortification. The maginot line was not just something like the devil's gardens or Rommels fortifications on the french coastline, it has a complex system of tunnels replete with a railway system in some areas, ie something and above a level one fortification times ten.

naturally when it comes to the time to complete something, it is a bit unfair to compare peacetime construction to war time. The latter carries with it a certain urgency and also goes along with belt tightening in the civilian sector which might be problematic in peacetime.

 

[Alex_brunius]

The thing about cost is misleading, though. A nation in a Total War doesn't need to worry about money and budgeting. Even Belgium could have gotten that built in a fraction of the time if the entire labour force was fanatically determined to make any sacrifices necessary.

This is already represented in HoI4 as well as the difference between 1936 USA (having very few CIC available) and wartime Germany controlling all of Europe with hundreds of CIC available at their disposal for construction.

 

[SpeedKatMcNasty]

Forts really arent a problem in this game. Ive never had a fort rule on my server (even when they were supposedly "OP") and it hasnt been a problem so far.

Did Raj spam forts in Burma? naval invasion. Lvl 10 in El Alamein? You need to get tanks there before the Allies start getting 1940 AT guns in their divisions. Also CAS. Also naval invasions.

99% of the time if you cant get around a fort, and come in whatever chat me/the host is in and complain that their isnt a fort rule, youre doing something wrong.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Lvl 10 in El Alamein? You need to get tanks there before the Allies start getting 1940 AT guns in their divisions.

Yes. Tanks armor advantage reducing damage taken by -50% sure balances out forts reducing damage taken by -99%...

You only take 50 times more damage when attacking. Perfectly balanced

( Also featured: Have fun sending tanks across the Med giving the Royal navy free shots at them, and then after the tanks failed to take the fort trying to get them back again ).

 

[SpeedKatMcNasty]

Yes. Tanks armor advantage reducing damage taken by -50% sure balances out forts reducing damage taken by -99%...

You only take 50 times more damage when attacking. Perfectly balanced

Oh boy. Whats your normal tank template? 6 lights 4 motorized? If you have problems getting past forts with your tanks im sure thats about it.

You can quite easily get through the Maginot even without building a single plane if you know where and how to attack. This is why most Frances leave France now, because its impossible to defend against a good Germany.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Oh boy. Whats your normal tank template? 6 lights 4 motorized? If you have problems getting past forts with your tanks im sure thats about it.

You can quite easily get through the Maginot even without building a single plane if you know where and how to attack.

You should read the OP and realize this thread is about Multiplayer... not about what you can do vs AI.

So, asking people with far more MP experience than me like ... does the cost of forts need to be re-examined with this map change?

 

[SpeedKatMcNasty]

( Also featured: Have fun sending tanks across the Med giving the Royal navy free shots at them, and then after the tanks failed to take the fort trying to get them back again ).

Im also not sure when the last time you played MP was, but i havent had a single convoy sunk in probably a dozen games. In the current game state convoys are literally invulnerable. Its why no one builds a navy anymore.

You should read the OP and realize this thread is about Multiplayer... not about what you can do vs AI.

I only play multiplayer

 

[Alex_brunius]

Im also not sure when the last time you played MP was, but i havent had a single convoy sunk in probably a dozen games. In the current game state convoys are literally invulnerable. Its why no one builds a navy anymore.

Is there a bug report of this where it can be reproduced? In all my 4 MP games played during 1.3.3 loads of convoys were sunk by all sides so I can't say I have seen this at all.

I only play multiplayer

So your seriously trying to tell me that tanks are effective against a player which puts a decent full width defense in place despite -99% combat penalty? Seriously?

 

[SpeedKatMcNasty]

So your seriously trying to tell me that tanks are effective against a player which puts a decent full width defense in place despite -99% combat penalty? Seriously?

Easily, yes. it might take you a week to take the province, but its quite simple and problem free. If you want to do it even easier, just do a naval invasion.

 

[SpeedKatMcNasty]

Is there a bug report of this where it can be reproduced? In all my 4 MP games played during 1.3.3 loads of convoys were sunk by all sides so I can't say I have seen this at all.

Lets say you send a transport from Sicily to Libya and the UK has his fleet there. They intercept your transport. Now click on the unit thats being intercepted and either hit the "stop" button or right click on a port. The transport will retreat from the battle and sail to its destination/whichever port you right clicked on. Now the enemy fleet will still intercept the "transport" and sink it, but your unit will make it to its destination and wont take damage from lost equipment/manpower. Its a ghost transport that gets sunk.

This doesnt work for resource convoys though, as their is no unit to click on.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Lets say you send a transport from Sicily to Libya and the UK has his fleet there. They intercept your transport. Now click on the unit thats being intercepted and either hit the "stop" button or right click on a port. The transport will retreat from the battle and sail to its destination/whichever port you right clicked on. Now the enemy fleet will still intercept the "transport" and sink it, but your unit will make it to its destination and wont take damage from lost equipment/manpower. Its a ghost transport that gets sunk.

Yes I know about this cheat and exploit as well, but unlike you I don't enjoy playing against / with cheaters so we don't have problems such as this in any of my MP groups.

it might take you a week to take the province

Just for fun, let's say your right about the tanks and can win in 1 week = 168 hours when attacking desert terrain despite a -99% combat penalty from forts.

This means that without the fort when attacking desert terrain your tank division will always defeat a same width infantry division in 2 hours ( since it inflicts 100 times more damage ).

The defending infantry they are fighting are designed by a human player and have full org and full dug in as well, something to keep in mind.

I would LOVE to see your tank divisions which can do that, but sadly they exist only in your fantasy...

 

[him_15]

How can Paradox prevent Human player to build a lv.10 fort in El Alamein so easily? Please don't tell me Italy can invade Egypt by sea as the Royal Navy is always superior.