Impassible Borders, Choke points, and Forts

[Meglok]

Since PDS has announced the addition of impassible borders which will create choke points and channel attacks, should forts and their cost be re-thought?

Right now the cost of forts is 500 plus 500/current fort level. A level 1 costs 500, a level 10 costs 5000.

Forts can be a significant problem in MP games, just ask anyone trying to crack Singapore or the Burma river line. With tech and minister bonuses building multiple levels of forts is not that difficult. Not sure how many channeling areas are going to be created, but I suspect prominent mountain chains will have them. Are we looking at sitzkreig at places like mountain passes and El Alamein in MP games?

Higher level forts in the 7 - 10 range were massive construction projects along the line of the Maginot or Atlantic Wall and should take a lot of effort and time. Not sure I like the idea of high level fortifications popping up all over the map to take advantage of the new map rules.

So, asking people with far more MP experience than me like @Secret Master @Dalwin @Krafty , does the cost of forts need to be re-examined with this map change?

And less we forget, Add Aluminum in Asia

 

[astec]

Manchurian needs that aluminum

El Alamein will need naval invasions to get past it, or perhaps a small air-zone centered around the choke-point to allow for concentrated CAS or STRAT to bomb it to pieces.

Add Aluminum in Asia

 

[Dalwin]

I agree that forts can be a problem in MP and I know some groups, including ours, puts some limits on them. We allow a max of level 5 forts to be built, plus whatever you can get from NFs. Some groups put even more restrictions than that.

For the sake of vanilla HOI, what I would like to see is something that others have suggested in the past. Higher tier forts should be more expensive. Of course since we are talking about civil construction that really only means they should take longer to build, but that is enough.

I would like something like the following.

Tier 1-4 the same as now followed by a quickly escalating penalty for anything higher.

Tier 5 +10%
Tier 6+30%
Tier 7 +60%
Tier 8 +100%
Tier 9 +150%
Tier 10 +210%

That would be enough to discourage impassable forts between France and Belgium or Italy. It would not, unfortunately do much about Alamein. It is only one province and would still be worth even that increased cost, though I suppose the UK like everyone else has limited time and resources and lvl 10 at Alamein might not be deemed efficient with my proposal, especially since there is always the option to bypass it amphibiously.

 

[Secret Master]

does the cost of forts need to be re-examined with this map change?

My MP group plays with No Man's Land Mod, so we have run several games under several patches with a similar geographical layout as the upcoming change to the game.

It's easy to forget that forts tend to degrade as fighting continues in a fort province. They don't last forever, and they aren't impregnable.

But I also think the higher tier forts are not expensive enough.

Up to tier 4, I think the cost is fine.

Dalwin's suggestion about increased fort prices at higher tiers makes sense to me. Making a Maginot Line should cost about as much as the Maginot Line.

That being said, there is a risk that if you raise the cost too high, then it will simply be the wrong strategy in all situations, all the time. I'm not sure this is the right direction for the game to go.

I want to look at the game and say, "Looks like the Soviets are upgrading the Stalin Line to level 10 forts. That's got to be costing him a fortune. What did he sacrifice to do it? And how can I exploit that sacrifice?" Not, "The Soviets are upgrading the Stalin Line to level 10 forts. F***ing noob! He's going to get reckt! Then I'll post screenshots of my victory on Steam and Reddit, and shame him in the MP community for being a complete and total dumb****! Muahahahahaha!"

 

[Commander-DK]

It would not, unfortunately do much about Alamein. It is only one province and would still be worth even that increased cost, though I suppose the UK like everyone else has limited time and resources and lvl 10 at Alamein might not be deemed efficient with my proposal, especially since there is always the option to bypass it amphibiously.

Shouldn't fort building capacity be somewhat related to the infrastructure of the province? Would it be reasonable to have a Maginot Line in desolate North Africa or the Himalayas? I'd like to see a tweak that somehow tied max fort level to how advanced the province itself is to ensure that the really advanced and costly forts and fortress lines only show up in fairly "civilized" areas?

 

[SFSLovenought]

Shouldn't fort building capacity be somewhat related to the infrastructure of the province? Would it be reasonable to have a Maginot Line in desolate North Africa or the Himalayas? I'd like to see a tweak that somehow tied max fort level to how advanced the province itself is to ensure that the really advanced and costly forts and fortress lines only show up in fairly "civilized" areas?

I don't think that would be realistic. Some of the most insane fortifications were in pretty rural areas, like ultra-dense fortifications on/under Iwo Jima.

 

[Dalwin]

Shouldn't fort building capacity be somewhat related to the infrastructure of the province? Would it be reasonable to have a Maginot Line in desolate North Africa or the Himalayas? I'd like to see a tweak that somehow tied max fort level to how advanced the province itself is to ensure that the really advanced and costly forts and fortress lines only show up in fairly "civilized" areas?

There is some logic to what you say but I think part of that logic is based on a flawed premise. It takes much less fortification to get the same advantage in a mountain pass than it does out on open and flat terrain. I think it is a mistake, though an understandable one, to picture all level 10 forts as being as extensive as the Maginot.

 

[C-Breeze]

Shouldn't fort building capacity be somewhat related to the infrastructure of the province? Would it be reasonable to have a Maginot Line in desolate North Africa or the Himalayas? I'd like to see a tweak that somehow tied max fort level to how advanced the province itself is to ensure that the really advanced and costly forts and fortress lines only show up in fairly "civilized" areas?

There is some logic to what you say but I think part of that logic is based on a flawed premise. It takes much less fortification to get the same advantage in a mountain pass than it does out on open and flat terrain. I think it is a mistake, though an understandable one, to picture all level 10 forts as being as extensive as the Maginot.

Yes it takes less raw materials to get the same advantage in mountain passes than open terrain, but it's also true that the transportation cost of moving immeasurable metric tons of concrete and steel to remote locations is considerably higher (nay unfeasible) than doing so in a metropolitan outskirt. The sheer volume of material needed for say the West Wall is mind numbingly staggering. Consider the following estimates:

"Figures are beyond imagination. 12000 pillboxes were constructed, meaning 15-20 pillboxes every 1000 Yds or 1 pillbox every 50 yards. The construction involved 300.000 men, 8.000.000 tons of concrete reinforced with 3200 miles of heavy steel cables, 192.000 steel doors, 1 million tons of timber, 700.000 Cu Yd of wood, 19.000 miles of barbed wire, 700 miles of trenches and 150 miles of dragon’s teeth for an estimated total amount of 3.5 billions Marks."

Imagine trying to transport all of these resources to the middle of nowhere. It took a herculean effort for the Germans to build this in their own backyard let alone in some distant vista. The term 'logistically impractical' comes to mind.

 

[Commander-DK]

I agree that a mountain pass is more suitable for defense and putting a fortress in a choke point than in open plains - but in that regard I think you are confusing the existing defensive bonus of the terrain with that of the fort? Mountain + small fort = huge fort on plains? I.e. if the terrain already favours defense, the need for a Maginot Line is considerably less

 

[Meglok]

What about in addition to cost fortifications required resource supply, probably steel? Not sure about this because the cost might be high for lower levels, but resources in HOI4 are notably abstract. Each "resource" represents a group of actual resources, not just the named resource. If you are building fortifications that requires construction materials, from barbed wire to concrete, steel rebar, tank obstacles, etc. Can't make bricks without straw as the saying goes.

Add Aluminum in Asia.

 

[Telenil]

If the problem is choke points specifically, wouldn't it be simpler to make them wider, in number of provinces? If a particular choke point is two provinces wide instead of one, that doubles the cost to fortify it.
Granted, the front at El-Alamein was about 60km large, and I'm not sure HoI4 has 30km wide provinces.

 

[RforRush]

Granted, the front at El-Alamein was about 60km large, and I'm not sure HoI4 has 30km wide provinces.

I'm sure HoI4 has even 1km wide provinces (Gibraltar for example).

 

[him_15]

There really has to be some restriction to prevent building a 10 level fort in El Alamein so easily.

 

[Louella]

you can build level 10 forts, with 0 research.

maybe requiring construction V, to build level 10 forts, would be an idea ?

That way, the Maginot Line and other such things, would represent a fortification project that would be unlikely to be widely replicated within the short timescale of the game.

 

[neusaap]

There just should be special units that can go through those blocked borders; for mountain borders the obvious answer is mountaineers; for desert, it would probably be best represented as an upgrade to allow moving through desert wasteland

 

[Louella]

I suppose though, that it gives a reason to build at least one division, that uses the Super Heavy tanks - for breaching Level-10 forts at a critical choke-point.

 

[grandad1982]

Possible ways to tackle el alimein. CAS, shore bombardment, strat bombing, naval invasions, paradrops, troop rotation so the fort can't repair during the fight, heavy tanks, probably others too.

I'm not saying that you should easily be able to build a L10 fort there but it strikes me it's not impossible to overcome if you commit enough resources to it.

 

[Dalwin]

Possible ways to tackle el alimein. CAS, shore bombardment, strat bombing, naval invasions, paradrops, troop rotation so the fort can't repair during the fight, heavy tanks, probably others too.

I'm not saying that you should easily be able to build a L10 fort there but it strikes me it's not impossible to overcome if you commit enough resources to it.

As pointed out earlier in the thread, my MP group has been paying with No Mans Land all along. That has a one province wide chokepoint at Alamein. Players always fortify it heavily, though not necessarily to 10. One way or another, it almost always falls eventually.

During the early part of the game when he Axis is sweeping every part of the map that they attack, it is nice to have a spot where the Allies can, at least temporarily, stem the tide.

 

[Meglok]

Without knowing the exact mechanics of the impassible borders and said placement we can't foresee all of the strategic ramifications, El Alamein might be the only major choke point that is always fought over. Or there might be only a few passes through the French, Italian, and Swiss Alps that really changes the way the French campaign is conducted. I think most agree that the cost of higher level fortifications is not high enough as currently coded. As @Secret Master said, there should be some pain when you are building huge interlocking concrete fortifications. 15 CIC is not much pain or cost.
Below are the ideas so far.

Escalating the cost above the current system per @Dalwin above

Adding a resource cost to construction (probably 1 steel at lower levels, maybe 2 steel (not Aluminum ) @ levels 8-10

Tying higher levels of forts to infrastructure - places like Iwo Jima, Peleliu, etc took advantage of natural terrain bonuses, wouldn't call them more than level 5 forts. Places with large developed fixed fortifications like the Maginot, Sevastopol, West Wall, Eben Emael, and the Atlantic Wall that one thinks of when discussing Levels 7 - 10 were almost all in higher infrastructure areas. So maybe at least Infra 7 or better for fort levels 7+?

I am pretty sure PDS is not going to allow special units to cross impassible borders, that is more tactical and the ai would be hard pressed to handle it. The idea is to remove extended fronts, this idea would not accomplish that.

@podcat some ideas we have been tossing around on this subject.

And of course, Add Aluminum in Asia

 

[Dalwin]

Without knowing the exact mechanics of the impassible borders and said placement we can't foresee all of the strategic ramifications, El Alamein might be the only major choke point that is always fought over. Or there might be only a few passes through the French, Italian, and Swiss Alps that really changes the way the French campaign is conducted. I think most agree that the cost of higher level fortifications is not high enough as currently coded. As @Secret Master said, there should be some pain when you are building huge interlocking concrete fortifications. 15 CIC is not much pain or cost.
Below are the ideas so far.

Escalating the cost above the current system per @Dalwin above

Adding a resource cost to construction (probably 1 steel at lower levels, maybe 2 steel (not Aluminum ) @ levels 8-10

Tying higher levels of forts to infrastructure - places like Iwo Jima, Peleliu, etc took advantage of natural terrain bonuses, wouldn't call them more than level 5 forts. Places with large developed fixed fortifications like the Maginot, Sevastopol, West Wall, Eben Emael, and the Atlantic Wall that one thinks of when discussing Levels 7 - 10 were almost all in higher infrastructure areas. So maybe at least Infra 7 or better for fort levels 7+?

I am pretty sure PDS is not going to allow special units to cross impassible borders, that is more tactical and the ai would be hard pressed to handle it. The idea is to remove extended fronts, this idea would not accomplish that.

@podcat some ideas we have been tossing around on this subject.

And of course, Add Aluminum in Asia

I think most of those ideas for making higher level forts more expensive have merit. The exception is adding a steel cost to build them. Most of the major combatants have an abundance of steel, except Japan. Japan probably built higher level fortifications during the war than anyone else (this excludes pre-war stuff).

Someone also mentioned tying the ability to construct the highest level forts to construction tech. I like that in principle, but construction V comes too late in the game to be useful for this, IMO.