Immigration question

[Guedes]

Wp sir! Did you use proxy wars at the beginning or how did you managed to get immigrants throughout the whole game?

Yes, but you dont need to, is just you wont receive as much immigration.

As for your analysis is spot on and i think you realized how important is domestic demand and how bad is to subside.

When you subside you are spending a lot of cash on unprofitable low demand industries to starve your craftsman and decrease demand even further. Than you have to raise tax to keep subsiding and decrease demand even more on all your pops.

Its a bad economic vicious cycle.

Instead of subsiding, try to low your taxes, spend more on military supply (if you have a military industry) and give money to your pops through social reforms (thats why i said unemployed subsides and pensions are good). That will expand demand and your industry will be profitable again which in turn will expand demand even further since your capis and craftsmand will now have money.

Thats a good economic cycle.

Eventually though, your industry will expand too much and require more and more inputs, thats where imperialism will kick in and you will need a lot of colonies to feed your industries with rare raw material (coal, iron, rubber and oil mainly).

As for timber: Its used as input on paper, furniture and lumber, so they may have a profitable industry that is buying it domestically. Its also used on railroads and naval bases.

As a side note: i really feel that country stockpile should have the option to buy only for local producers, that would be a way to make a "good" subside of your productions and realistically emulate the government spending money to heat up the economy. The actual mechanics of subside are a trap that non experienced players will have to learn a way around it and only the most powerful nations of the game can use it scotch free.

 

[Guedes]

I forgot to mention; theres is, in fact, one way of "good" subside for your industry: negative tariffs.

Essentially, negative tariffs works as a subside of imported goods, so if your factories are importing inputs, and you have a -15% tariff, they will pay only 85% of the full price and you will pay 15%. That may turn that factory profitable and contrary to industrial subsides, the craftsman and capis will receive they paycheck which will further increase local demand.

Keep in mind it will affect all pops though, not only your industry. And it only works for goods bought from world market, not from SOI (another reason to stay away from SOI's).

Also, dont worry that your pops/factories will start to import in detriment of your local production; pops/factories will ALWAYS buy locally first, even if paying more.

 

[TotalBastard]

Yes, but you dont need to, is just you wont receive as much immigration.

As for your analysis is spot on and i think you realized how important is domestic demand and how bad is to subside.

When you subside you are spending a lot of cash on unprofitable low demand industries to starve your craftsman and decrease demand even further. Than you have to raise tax to keep subsiding and decrease demand even more on all your pops.

Its a bad economic vicious cycle.

Instead of subsiding, try to low your taxes, spend more on military supply (if you have a military industry) and give money to your pops through social reforms (thats why i said unemployed subsides and pensions are good). That will expand demand and your industry will be profitable again which in turn will expand demand even further since your capis and craftsmand will now have money.

Thats a good economic cycle.

Eventually though, your industry will expand too much and require more and more inputs, thats where imperialism will kick in and you will need a lot of colonies to feed your industries with rare raw material (coal, iron, rubber and oil mainly).

As for timber: Its used as input on paper, furniture and lumber, so they may have a profitable industry that is buying it domestically. Its also used on railroads and naval bases.

As a side note: i really feel that country stockpile should have the option to buy only for local producers, that would be a way to make a "good" subside of your productions and realistically emulate the government spending money to heat up the economy. The actual mechanics of subside are a trap that non experienced players will have to learn a way around it and only the most powerful nations of the game can use it scotch free.

Okay thanks for the advice again. I have to try to play with these consepts more in future games.

But if I don't subside it does make things even more worse doesn't it (immigration wise)? I mean then my factories will go bankrupt and then I have a massive craftman unemployment and then it's certain that I'm losing the immigration race. Also if I don't want to use proxy wars militancy is just not going to get high enough to pass any reforms. In this particular Ecuador campaign it's already 1890 and I think I have been able to pass one or 2 reforms throughout the whole game. I always also take 'more militancy decision' when it's possible regarding the events but militancy just not get high enough until the late game (like after 1915 or something) and then it's already too late when the game is close to end.

Also I always prefer socialist in power because I just don't know how to industrialize when liberals are in power. They just seems to always build whatever factories and they never seem to manage to keep them open ==> unempolyment again. When socialists are in power I have to keep the taxes min 50 %. WIth high tax effiency that might lead to overtaxing my POPs again and the cycle continues.

 

[TotalBastard]

I forgot to mention; theres is, in fact, one way of "good" subside for your industry: negative tariffs.

Essentially, negative tariffs works as a subside of imported goods, so if your factories are importing inputs, and you have a -15% tariff, they will pay only 85% of the full price and you will pay 15%. That may turn that factory profitable and contrary to industrial subsides, the craftsman and capis will receive they paycheck which will further increase local demand.

Keep in mind it will affect all pops though, not only your industry. And it only works for goods bought from world market, not from SOI (another reason to stay away from SOI's).

Also, dont worry that your pops/factories will start to import in detriment of your local production; pops/factories will ALWAYS buy locally first, even if paying more.

Yes I have to try to play with neg tariffs also.

 

[Kovax]

But if I don't subside it does make things even more worse doesn't it (immigration wise)? I mean then my factories will go bankrupt and then I have a massive craftman unemployment and then it's certain that I'm losing the immigration race.

If you subsidize an industry that's losing money, the workers aren't getting paid anyway, so the subsidies aren't helping them at all. It does nothing for your industrial score either, because that's based on the value of what's being produced and sold. The ONLY reasons to subsidize are:

A - to prevent temporary market fluctuations from closing your factories, which can have a ripple effect on other industries. I've put most of the economy on subsidies briefly, during major economic downturns until things picked up, but wouldn't want to do that long-term.

B - to keep a few essential industries open regardless of profitability, either because they support your industries which ARE profitable (such as a cloth factory supplying your clothing industry), or else they're essential for a sizable military (firearms, canned goods, etc.) in times of war, and you don't want them to vanish during peacetime.

Any factory producing a non-essential good that's consistently losing money should be allowed to close, because it's maintaining a bunch of "employed" craftsmen and clerks who aren't getting so much as a penny for their efforts, and they can't afford to buy the goods that your factories and RGOs are producing. I often subsidize ONE of each important intermediate product, and one of each military good, and that's about it. The rest either sink or swim, with the craftsmen gravitating to industries that do turn a profit, and the economy remains healthier that way in the long run.

 

[Guedes]

Okay thanks for the advice again. I have to try to play with these consepts more in future games.

But if I don't subside it does make things even more worse doesn't it (immigration wise)? I mean then my factories will go bankrupt and then I have a massive craftman unemployment and then it's certain that I'm losing the immigration race. Also if I don't want to use proxy wars militancy is just not going to get high enough to pass any reforms. In this particular Ecuador campaign it's already 1890 and I think I have been able to pass one or 2 reforms throughout the whole game. I always also take 'more militancy decision' when it's possible regarding the events but militancy just not get high enough until the late game (like after 1915 or something) and then it's already too late when the game is close to end.

Also I always prefer socialist in power because I just don't know how to industrialize when liberals are in power. They just seems to always build whatever factories and they never seem to manage to keep them open ==> unempolyment again. When socialists are in power I have to keep the taxes min 50 %. WIth high tax effiency that might lead to overtaxing my POPs again and the cycle continues.

I think subsidize malefactors are already covered up. it does nothing subsidize your factories to avoid unemployment and attract some more immigrants if inevitably unemployment will reach your rgos due the lack of demand, you are just delaying the inevitable and digging up a bigger hole.

Regarding militancy; no theres no other way to rise it fast enough that isnt as "gamey" as proxy wars. I remember that on vanilla militancy usually increased way faster due to starvation than it does on HoD, i think they changed that because the players complain about the rebels and how the AI couldnt handle them either. Than again Vanilla was a lot different and had the problems of its own.

Liberals are the best party ingame, they really are, but they only work if you are already powerful enough to start with. And that means raw materials and internal demand, and you dont have any of them as a small south american country. To have them you have to become a GP ASAP and attract lots of immigrants ASAP and to do that your only option is to pass reforms fast and become a gp through prestige farm early (1880 max).

I think the bottom line of discussion is sandbox vs emulation. Vicky is supposed to be a sandbox game that emulates history more or less, but in the end it goes more to the emulation side. All the historically powerful nations already kinda have all the pieces at game start. Remember you are not exactly playing with nations that became imperialists superpowers here. They are small nations that received more or less immigration through history and the game is realistic in that regard (all of them receive some immigration late game).

Maybe try to play with Brazil. You dont need proxy wars to succeed with it and it did became the 8th economical power at some point of the last half of the XX century.

 

[TotalBastard]

If you subsidize an industry that's losing money, the workers aren't getting paid anyway, so the subsidies aren't helping them at all. It does nothing for your industrial score either, because that's based on the value of what's being produced and sold. The ONLY reasons to subsidize are:

A - to prevent temporary market fluctuations from closing your factories, which can have a ripple effect on other industries. I've put most of the economy on subsidies briefly, during major economic downturns until things picked up, but wouldn't want to do that long-term.

B - to keep a few essential industries open regardless of profitability, either because they support your industries which ARE profitable (such as a cloth factory supplying your clothing industry), or else they're essential for a sizable military (firearms, canned goods, etc.) in times of war, and you don't want them to vanish during peacetime.

Any factory producing a non-essential good that's consistently losing money should be allowed to close, because it's maintaining a bunch of "employed" craftsmen and clerks who aren't getting so much as a penny for their efforts, and they can't afford to buy the goods that your factories and RGOs are producing. I often subsidize ONE of each important intermediate product, and one of each military good, and that's about it. The rest either sink or swim, with the craftsmen gravitating to industries that do turn a profit, and the economy remains healthier that way in the long run.

Okay seems reasonable. Thanx for the advice!

 

[TotalBastard]

I think subsidize malefactors are already covered up. it does nothing subsidize your factories to avoid unemployment and attract some more immigrants if inevitably unemployment will reach your rgos due the lack of demand, you are just delaying the inevitable and digging up a bigger hole.

Regarding militancy; no theres no other way to rise it fast enough that isnt as "gamey" as proxy wars. I remember that on vanilla militancy usually increased way faster due to starvation than it does on HoD, i think they changed that because the players complain about the rebels and how the AI couldnt handle them either. Than again Vanilla was a lot different and had the problems of its own.

Liberals are the best party ingame, they really are, but they only work if you are already powerful enough to start with. And that means raw materials and internal demand, and you dont have any of them as a small south american country. To have them you have to become a GP ASAP and attract lots of immigrants ASAP and to do that your only option is to pass reforms fast and become a gp through prestige farm early (1880 max).

I think the bottom line of discussion is sandbox vs emulation. Vicky is supposed to be a sandbox game that emulates history more or less, but in the end it goes more to the emulation side. All the historically powerful nations already kinda have all the pieces at game start. Remember you are not exactly playing with nations that became imperialists superpowers here. They are small nations that received more or less immigration through history and the game is realistic in that regard (all of them receive some immigration late game).

Maybe try to play with Brazil. You dont need proxy wars to succeed with it and it did became the 8th economical power at some point of the last half of the XX century.

Yes, this makes sense.

Anyway I think I spammed enough of this topic and I got a lot of good feedback. I think I will try the proxy war start in some of the South American minors just see how it goes and how does the game feel to me (personally). Also I have to try to study more how to run my industry and taxes (probably through trial and error) and maybe I eventually manage to learn something.

Cheers everybody!

 

[Fitzgerald93]

If you subsidize an industry that's losing money, the workers aren't getting paid anyway, so the subsidies aren't helping them at all. It does nothing for your industrial score either, because that's based on the value of what's being produced and sold.

Are you sure on the industrial rating one? So far it seems to have been mostly based on craftsman employed in factories and not on a actual value being produced, when i check nations like UK on AI i see a heavily subsidized unprofitable industry, while they have a high score in industry from said factories.

 

[Guedes]

It is value on vanilla iirc, on HoD is craftsman employed.

 

[Fitzgerald93]

It is value on vanilla iirc, on HoD is craftsman employed.

Then it makes me mad it has been changed^^

 

[Guedes]

Then it makes me mad it has been changed^^

Kinda, vanilla was dumb because the nation that produced goods with higher prices would get a huge score even though hadnt that much of a industrial base.

Ihmo it should be based on productivity (output, relative to each good) instead of value or number of craftsman.

 

[Fitzgerald93]

Kinda, vanilla was dumb because the nation that produced goods with higher prices would get a huge score even though hadnt that much of a industrial base.

Ihmo it should be based on productivity (output, relative to each good) instead of value or number of craftsman.

Well GDP kinda matters but i think we are now derailing this thread so lets stop^^