Immigration question

[TotalBastard]

Hi!

I don't know if this matter is beat to death already but I will ask anyway because I don't understand what is happening and I couldn't find an answer with search.

I'm just baffled why I don't get any immigration at all in my HOD Uruguay campaing. The year is 1910 and my government type is democracy. I have passed every single political and social reform there is. I have plenty of space in my factories so that shouldn't be an issue either. I'm basically a freaking paradise.

Brazil has not passed hardly any or none reforms (no politicil or social) and still they get a ton of immigrants. USA as well. I know that these two are apparently somewhat hard coded to get a lot of immigrants but still this doesn't make sense to me. I mean is it even possible to win immigration race against these two? When there is a great war in Europe I get a ton of immigrants but for example Brazil still gets more. When the war ends I'm back to 0 immigrants. Even Colombia is beating me and they haven't passed hardly any reforms either.

I'm only a two state country so does that have something to do with it? My ruling party is socialist. I'm a secondary power with a country ranking of 13.

In a game where population is everything this is kind of meh because I can't really ever reach my potential.

 

[Guedes]

There's definitely something you arent noticing.

Brazil and Usa will always get immigration because they have a hidden factor, like you mentioned . But if you are a democracy + have all political reforms you should be able to compete with them for immigration, better yet if you are a gp (also a factor).

Are your rgos filled up? If yes and you have a lot of unemployed farmers, than that may be the case, theres a -1000% factor for immigration if more than 10% of your pop is unemployed iirc.

 

[TotalBastard]

There's definitely something you arent noticing.

Brazil and Usa will always get immigration because they have a hidden factor, like you mentioned . But if you are a democracy + have all political reforms you should be able to compete with them for immigration, better yet if you are a gp (also a factor).

Are your rgos filled up? If yes and you have a lot of unemployed farmers, than that may be the case, theres a -1000% factor for immigration if more than 10% of your pop is unemployed iirc.

I actually looked at this and there was a lot of farmers who was unemployed but that wasn't because rgos were filled up. Rgos were basically empty but still there was unemployment and that's another thing i didn't understand.

 

[TotalBastard]

I actually looked at this and there was a lot of farmers who was unemployed but that wasn't because rgos were filled up. Rgos were basically empty but still there was unemployment and that's another thing i didn't understand.

I think this might be it then. I looked it up more closely and farmers are 48,7 % of my country and about 50 % them are unemployed so that makes it about 25 % of my people are unemployed.

But like I said my RGO are basically empty (like 28k out of 440k in one province for example) so there is plenty of room for people to work. Still they are unemployed? I wonder why?

 

[Guedes]

Uruguay produces basically cattle which is a product that is frequently on low demand late game, what is happening is that your production isnt being sold so the rgos fire the farmers.

Rgos work similarly do factories ,if they are not having profit they will fire people, difference being that rgos cant shut down as factories so your farmers will just sit around starving until they promote/demote to something else or migrate to greener pastures (which in your case doesnt exists).

Your only option is converting all those farmers in craftsman but that will take long. I suggest restarting, by that point you should be a gp already with a lot of imperialism going on to have a sucessful Uruguay by late game. Good luck

 

[TotalBastard]

Uruguay produces basically cattle which is a product that is frequently on low demand late game, what is happening is that your production isnt being sold so the rgos fire the farmers.

Rgos work similarly do factories ,if they are not having profit they will fire people, difference being that rgos cant shut down as factories so your farmers will just sit around starving until they promote/demote to something else or migrate to greener pastures (which in your case doesnt exists).

Your only option is converting all those farmers in craftsman but that will take long. I suggest restarting, by that point you should be a gp already with a lot of imperialism going on to have a sucessful Uruguay by late game. Good luck

I actually started to convert craftsman and in the end both my states had them like 40-50 %. But also my economy crashed down completely in the end I'm not actually sure what happened because this has never happened to me before in any game. In the late game I have always had more money I could spend and I could subside all of my factories without any problem at all, have all the military sliders max out etc etc. In this game I actually had to put all the sliders to left and still couldn't subside my factories because I was making so much red.

I don't know much but maybe my industry just got too big. I had too many craftsman compared to my actual population and my factories got too big so they were too costly for me to subside.

But I still had like 35 % farmers in the end even though I was encouraging years and years craftsmen so I was never going to able get rid of them all.

 

[Guedes]

Subsides are generally bad, specially endgame. If you are having to mass subside than something is very wrong. Your industry should be autosustanable, you probably lagged behind and your factories had no inputs to produce lategame when the shortages of raw materials happen and only the big gps have access to them.

Subsides are only useful when you start creating your industry.

Craftsman nf is very important, maybe the most important once you have the required clergy and burecrauts and start to develop your own industry. I put it on all my most populous states and never change it once my industry starts to develop.

 

[TotalBastard]

Subsides are generally bad, specially endgame. If you are having to mass subside than something is very wrong. Your industry should be autosustanable, you probably lagged behind and your factories had no inputs to produce lategame when the shortages of raw materials happen and only the big gps have access to them.

Subsides are only useful when you start creating your industry.

Craftsman nf is very important, maybe the most important once you have the required clergy and burecrauts and start to develop your own industry. I put it on all my most populous states and never change it once my industry starts to develop.

Yeah probably right. It just that I have been able to always subside before but then again I think I haven't gone so gung ho before with craftsmen and factories at least not with such a small country.

Funny thing also that I found out is that in year 1910 I loaded as Brazil and they have like 0 % unemployment in their cattle RGOs and at the same time I have like 60 % with my Uruguy. I was with better country ranking than they was so only thing I can imagine that explains this (somehow) is that I was sphered by USA and they were by none. So when I was in USA sphere did that fuk up my cattle industry somehow?

Like I said I was also a full wellfare state at that point and had all the social reforms maxed out so maybe my lazy ass freerider farmers just got enough money from my wellfare reforms that it was better to them to stay at home than show up to work? Does unemployment subsides have this drastic effect in this game? If so I will never ever going to pass this reform again.

 

[Guedes]

Funny thing also that I found out is that in year 1910 I loaded as Brazil and they have like 0 % unemployment in their cattle RGOs and at the same time I have like 60 % with my Uruguy. I was with better country ranking than they was so only thing I can imagine that explains this (somehow) is that I was sphered by USA and they were by none. So when I was in USA sphere did that fuk up my cattle industry somehow?

Like I said I was also a full wellfare state at that point and had all the social reforms maxed out so maybe my lazy ass freerider farmers just got enough money from my wellfare reforms that it was better to them to stay at home than show up to work? Does unemployment subsides have this drastic effect in this game? If so I will never ever going to pass this reform again.

You nailed it on the first one.

Unemployment susbsides are usually good if you are a big country /gp because it induces local demmand (and as you gonna see local demmand is very important), pops won't get "lazy" and stop working because of it, if there is work available they will get it, even if the pay check is less than the subside. The only bad repercution of it is that it will have a small effect on demotion factor so they won't convert to craftsman trhough demotion as fast because they have their needs partially filled with the subsides. Ihmo the pro is often better than the con.

What happens in your case compared to Brazil is precisely you are getting f... because you are on usa SOI.

Usually markets on vic work like this; firts you sell your products locally and the excedent at the world market.

However, if you are on a SOI, you don't sell at the world market first anymore, you first sell at the SOI common market. But here is the catch; you dont get paid for the goods sold on SOI market. Thats right... so what happens is that the brazilians are selling their cattle at the world market and being paid for it. You, otoh are sell at the SOI market and dont get paid for it. Since Uruguay is a small country ,you local demmand for cattle should be next to zero, unless you have a canned food factory and tons of soldiers to provide demmand for it locally. The result is your rgos mass unemployment .

Thats why being a small country in a sphere is usually a bad thing, you have access to all the raw materials of the gp, but your producion dont get paid because most of the buyers aren't locals (lack of domestic demmand) but the SOI gp that dont pay you (better yet; pays for it but your producers dont receive the money).

 

[TotalBastard]

You nailed it on the first one.

Unemployment susbsides are usually good if you are a big country /gp because it induces local demmand (and as you gonna see local demmand is very important), pops won't get "lazy" and stop working because of it, if there is work available they will get it, even if the pay check is less than the subside. The only bad repercution of it is that it will have a small effect on demotion factor so they won't convert to craftsman trhough demotion as fast because they have their needs partially filled with the subsides. Ihmo the pro is often better than the con.

What happens in your case compared to Brazil is precisely you are getting f... because you are on usa SOI.

Usually markets on vic work like this; firts you sell your products locally and the excedent at the world market.

However, if you are on a SOI, you don't sell at the world market first anymore, you first sell at the SOI common market. But here is the catch; you dont get paid for the goods sold on SOI market. Thats right... so what happens is that the brazilians are selling their cattle at the world market and being paid for it. You, otoh are sell at the SOI market and dont get paid for it. Since Uruguay is a small country ,you local demmand for cattle should be next to zero, unless you have a canned food factory and tons of soldiers to provide demmand for it locally. The result is your rgos mass unemployment .

Thats why being a small country in a sphere is usually a bad thing, you have access to all the raw materials of the gp, but your producion dont get paid because most of the buyers aren't locals (lack of domestic demmand) but the SOI gp that dont pay you (better yet; pays for it but your producers dont receive the money).

Thanks for the info.

Still thought I'm not able to wrap my head around this. I started another campaign with Venezuela and the same thing is happening again. I haven't got practically any immigrants throughout the the campaign and it is already 1900's. I have been a democracy the whole time. I haven't been able to pass a lot of reforms thought because conservative ideologies are so dominant in Venezuela.

There was a long period of time I was in UK sphere but last like 10 to 15 years I have been sphere free. Massive RGO unemployment is happening so that's probably the problem again. To add my frustration Uruguay is getting a ton of immigrants in this campaign with practically 0 % unemployment in RGOs. There even was a shot period of time they were a presidential dictatorship and they still got more immigrants than me. I'm not sure if they are in a sphere or not, have to check it out when I get to home again. But main question is what's the difference now compared to my Uruguay campaign?

This is actually a very big frustration to me because I think I'm doing something in all of my games that leads to this. It seems that whichever country in South America I pick doesn't get any immigration in the game and the rest of the bunch gets a ton. And if I try with another country same thing happens again. When I play with a country = no immigrants. When AI play with a country = a ton of immigrants. Does AI cheat in this game?

Does literacy and consciousness/ militancy also play a massive part in this matter? I always go to max literacy (because of research points) and I also want a lot of consciousness/ militancy to be able to pass a lot of reforms. AI seems to be notoriously bad at gaining literacy and in the 1900's many of them (in south america for example) still have like 20-30 % literacy rates. So my guess is they don't then have a much of consciousness/ militancy either.

So question is does literacy and consciousness/ militancy rates have something to do with RGO unemployment in this game?

 

[Guedes]

For your question; no, not directly.

The rgo unemployment if you are sphere free is probably due to low demand on world market for your produced goods. Iirc Venezuela doesnt produce anything special.

Rgo unemployment is due to happen late game anyways unless on provinces that produce high demmand industrial materials (rubber, coal, iron, oil and silk basically) and gold. Its not necessarily a bad thing either because all those unemployed farmers should fuel your industry with craftsmen.

But than again if you have too much rgo unemployment you won't receive immigrants .

Early political reforms are a must to attract immigration. You have to pass all political reforms that attract immigration at the very max 1860, the earlier the better.

Conservative upperhouse is not bad because for every point of militancy you gain 10% of conservative votes pro reform.

What you have to do to pass a lot of reforms early are proxy wars; declare war to an unciv (which is not on a gp sphere! ) at the other side of the world which cant reach you for the lowest infamy cb -> wait until they white peace you( may take a while, but the ai will propose you white peace)-> 2 militancy points "for free" when you acept. Hence and repeat.

In a conservative domminant upperhouse you can pass a reform with 4 or 5 mil points, so every 2 or 3 white peaces. Early game use all your diplo points on proxy wars, about 15 to 20 should be able to pass all reforms, depending how many + militancy events you get.

Your prestige will tank early game, but you cant get negative prestige so its all right, you will take it back mid and late game.

Keep up the high literacy gain , its very important late game to convert the unemployed farmers .

Last, but not least, after passing all the immigrants attraction reforms, focus on farming prestige through tech and events, its very important to be a gp already at about the 1880's otherwise you are pretty much screwed.

I'm at the middle of a Chile campaign, after i finish( probly this weekend) i will post some screenshots here and tell you how i did what, that may help you a little.

 

[TotalBastard]

For your question; no, not directly.

The rgo unemployment if you are sphere free is probably due to low demand on world market for your produced goods. Iirc Venezuela doesnt produce anything special.

Rgo unemployment is due to happen late game anyways unless on provinces that produce high demmand industrial materials (rubber, coal, iron, oil and silk basically) and gold. Its not necessarily a bad thing either because all those unemployed farmers should fuel your industry with craftsmen.

But than again if you have too much rgo unemployment you won't receive immigrants .

Early political reforms are a must to attract immigration. You have to pass all political reforms that attract immigration at the very max 1860, the earlier the better.

Conservative upperhouse is not bad because for every point of militancy you gain 10% of conservative votes pro reform.

What you have to do to pass a lot of reforms early are proxy wars; declare war to an unciv (which is not on a gp sphere! ) at the other side of the world which cant reach you for the lowest infamy cb -> wait until they white peace you( may take a while, but the ai will propose you white peace)-> 2 militancy points "for free" when you acept. Hence and repeat.

In a conservative domminant upperhouse you can pass a reform with 4 or 5 mil points, so every 2 or 3 white peaces. Early game use all your diplo points on proxy wars, about 15 to 20 should be able to pass all reforms, depending how many + militancy events you get.

Your prestige will tank early game, but you cant get negative prestige so its all right, you will take it back mid and late game.

Keep up the high literacy gain , its very important late game to convert the unemployed farmers .

Last, but not least, after passing all the immigrants attraction reforms, focus on farming prestige through tech and events, its very important to be a gp already at about the 1880's otherwise you are pretty much screwed.

I'm at the middle of a Chile campaign, after i finish( probly this weekend) i will post some screenshots here and tell you how i did what, that may help you a little.

Thanks again for responding and helping.

It's not my intention to sound like a whiny ungrateful biatch in this one (especially when you are offering a solid advice here on how to play around this) but these proxy wars seems a bit too gamey for my taste. And it's not that I think "I'm better than this" or anything. I have just always had a feeling in these type of games that if I have to do some super gamey stuff to achieve something I'm gonna rapidly lose interest. I mean I have some kind of vision in my head how these games should be played "correctly" and what is bending the rules too much and what is not (even though there is no right or wrong and everybody plays how they chooses).

I don't know if I explained it correctly but my main frustration was that I'm not really understanding why is this happening and not so that it is happening. I have a craving need to understand I once console commanded/ save loaded many hours in one EU4 campaign to try to figure out why succession and personal union wars happened how they did.

But if you can post some screen shots and explain your thought process more when you have the time it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Kovax]

As said, you shouldn't have to game the system like that to attract immigrants in the same numbers as the AI. Not sure what's different with what you're doing, but it's not resulting in what I normally see happen.

 

[Guedes]

Thanks again for responding and helping.

It's not my intention to sound like a whiny ungrateful biatch in this one (especially when you are offering a solid advice here on how to play around this) but these proxy wars seems a bit too gamey for my taste. And it's not that I think "I'm better than this" or anything. I have just always had a feeling in these type of games that if I have to do some super gamey stuff to achieve something I'm gonna rapidly lose interest. I mean I have some kind of vision in my head how these games should be played "correctly" and what is bending the rules too much and what is not (even though there is no right or wrong and everybody plays how they chooses).

I don't know if I explained it correctly but my main frustration was that I'm not really understanding why is this happening and not so that it is happening. I have a craving need to understand I once console commanded/ save loaded many hours in one EU4 campaign to try to figure out why succession and personal union wars happened how they did.

But if you can post some screen shots and explain your thought process more when you have the time it would be greatly appreciated.

Thats all right, i also think that proxy wars are gamey, but they are the only method to raise militancy and pass reforms fast and compete with usa and brazil for immigrants. Late game usually other countries on americas will also receive some immigration even without reforms (point in case of your Uruguay AI), but not nearly as much.

So in the end the choice is yours. I'm not the type that says how you should be having fun, i'm just pointing out how i succeed on those scenarios.


As explained, unemployment is the reason why you aint getting immigration so the solution is converting all those farmers on craftsman and developing your industry, you won't receive as much immigrants as early full reform country would ,but you certainly will receive some.

Also, try becoming a gp ASAP and do some imperialism (colonize and conquer uncivs for colony and rare raw material for your industry) that will do wonders for your industry and economy.

 

[Matoro_TBS]

High unemployment will halt even immigration to US/Brazil. Those two have so much RGOs though that they will basically never fill. I mean, you can't blame people for not immigrating to somewhere where there isn't work available. You pretty much need either more land (with more RGOs) or more factories. The people need something to do to ever come to you.

 

[Thrake]

Even when not being a sphereling, RGO can have a rough time as the time goes. I'm going to ask the obvious, but do you make sure that you have railroads maxed around, and do you research enough RGO productivity?

Also, NOT being sphered is certainly a must. Try to decrease GP opinion towards you if one starts building influence with you. You might even just ally Mexico for truthes with the US (can't build up influence!), Europeans usually don't get to sphere America.

 

[TotalBastard]

High unemployment will halt even immigration to US/Brazil. Those two have so much RGOs though that they will basically never fill. I mean, you can't blame people for not immigrating to somewhere where there isn't work available. You pretty much need either more land (with more RGOs) or more factories. The people need something to do to ever come to you.

Like stated in this topic before this is not a problem. There is a massive unemployment but it's not because RGOs are full. RGOs are basically empty. They are unemployed because the cheap crap the RGOs produce doesn't get sold or it's not profitable enough to keep people working. This is a massive issue in farmer heavy countries like Uruguay. They produce basically only cattle and when the game gets to point where cattle is not sold so much anymore there is going to be a massive unemployment. Okay this can be a good thing because then these people can be turned to craftsmen.

The mystery for me is that the AI always seems to do a lot better regarding immigration and I don't understand why. Maybe it's just a coincidence because there can be different variales in different games.

 

[Guedes]

So, just finished my Chile game. It could have been a lot better though. I'm still a little rusty since i'm just coming back from a long pause (you know, adult life...).

At around the 1920's my industry bottlenecked on rubber, which in turn created industrial unemployment and also braked my military score since i couldnt afford too much airplanes. I sphered Bolivia and Brazil but those countries have shitty tech and didnt contributed much. Should have taken the rubber on africa, but i though that the south east asia would do it.

I also was sloppy with literacy so i decided just to fast forward until the end since my literacy was too low already.

All in all if i have made things better i think i, at the very least, would have passed the USA as #3. But at least here is proof that it can be done and the immigration never stopped through the game.

Next plathrough is Peru where i will take that rubber from Bolivia and be more aggressive towards Africa, while investing more on literacy.

 

[TotalBastard]

So, just finished my Chile game. It could have been a lot better though. I'm still a little rusty since i'm just coming back from a long pause (you know, adult life...).

At around the 1920's my industry bottlenecked on rubber, which in turn created industrial unemployment and also braked my military score since i couldnt afford too much airplanes. I sphered Bolivia and Brazil but those countries have shitty tech and didnt contributed much. Should have taken the rubber on africa, but i though that the south east asia would do it.

I also was sloppy with literacy so i decided just to fast forward until the end since my literacy was too low already.

All in all if i have made things better i think i, at the very least, would have passed the USA as #3. But at least here is proof that it can be done and the immigration never stopped through the game.

Next plathrough is Peru where i will take that rubber from Bolivia and be more aggressive towards Africa, while investing more on literacy.

Wp sir! Did you use proxy wars at the beginning or how did you managed to get immigrants throughout the whole game?

 

[TotalBastard]

I think I managed to make some sense about the situation and why it always seems that the AI does better with immigration than I do. Feedback would be appreciated if my thought process is completely off. Here it goes:

I'm in a campaign with Ecuador. THe year is 1890. There is a great war in Europe and immigrants are flooding to South America. They are going to Brazil, Colombia and Venezuela. Yet again my Ecuador is getting none. The reason is again RGO unemployment which is over 10 % in my country and less than that in Colombia and Venezuela.

For example my country is better reformwise than Venezuela is. Not much but still. My vote franchise is weighted wealth and they have only landed, they have slavery allowed and I have not and I have trinket health care and they have no health care. So reformwise I should be beating them in the immigration race. We are both democracies and neither of us are in a sphere.

I looked at more closely what is going on with Venezuela and it turned out that they have like 0 unemployment in their RGOs and that is probably why I'm losing the immigration race against them. But how can it be that I have like 15 % unemployment in my fruit RGOs and they have none in theirs? Fruit is not in high demand world wide but if my crap is not selling it should be the same thing with their crap also right? It seems that this is not the case. Somehow their crap is still selling and I think that is because I have so much more craftsmen than hey have. Let me be more specific.

Since I got socialists to power and started building factories I have encouraged nothing but craftsmen the whole time. At this point I have like 19 % of them of my whole population. Venezuela have 0,7 %. As said the great war is on in Europe and my factories are not doing great. In fact they are only surviving because I subside them. My whole craftmen population is getting none their life needs met and their cash reserves are 0. So as far as I understand they can't buy anything. That's 19 % of my population that is not buying for example the case fruit and because of world market is not buying them either the crap doesn't get sold. In Venezuela they don't have this problem. Their pops have money to meet threir life needs so they can sell their fruit internally and it doesn't need to go to world market anyway.

Tax rates and tax effiency might also got something to do with this because at this point I have always used to keep the taxes max out. Also my tax effiency is usually better than AI has. Maybe also RGO effiency.

Our population numbers are very same. I have like 265K and they have like 258k.

So I think this is the reason why I am constantly losing the immigration race when playing South America countries and why it always seems that the AI is doing better with any gven country than I do. I have always a shait load more craftsmen than the AI has (relative to total population). When at some point my factories are doing badly (when big wars are happening) my craftsmen doesn't get paid. When they don't get paid there isn't enough people to buy my cheap RGO crap. When the world market doesn't buy it either the unemployment is happening.

Ps. One thing also that is very weird is that I have a timber RGO with like 7284 pop that has 10,1 % unemployment. At the same time Venezuela has timber RGO with like 10507 pop that has 0 % unemployment. TImber is not in high demand in the world market but still it's weird that my timber doesn't sell and their does.