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unmerged(5389)

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Aug 17, 2001
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As you all may have noticed, the current method of counting the population isn't satisfactory. as we all know, population has changed both positively and negatively. The most common positive factors were
1) immigration (Siberia, America, the german "Drang nach Osten"
2) natural increase due to high stability etc.
You don't have to be an expert to notice that immigration had a bigger impact than natural increase. The latter was just too slow and the infant mortality rates were astronomical.
the most common negative factors were:
1) plundering, which includes killing native populations
2) ethnic and religious cleansing (too many examples in history to be listed here, you get the point)
3) famine, disease
and last but not least 4) EMIGRATION. the human race is a dynamic one and this has just been neglected in EU. whenever a certain area was hit by a flood, famine, conquerors or such the people seeked refuge in nearby lands, in most of the cases they stayed there for ever. numerous millions fled before the turks, spanish, inquisitons and such. So, what I'm suggesting is;
1) a random event system: say, the province of milan has had an extremely bad harvest and 25 percent of population has emigrated to genoa (of course, the numbers may be too high). or, the turks just conquered bosnia, and 40 percent of population flees to croatia and dalmatia.
2) you should be able to conduct and order ehnic cleansing or religious ones. think catarina de medici and the hugenots, think the inquisiton and the exodus of the jews and moslems from spain, think various other examples
3) this may not be necessary, but you should be able to kill off the population of the province you're sieging. i found my self trying to achieve just that when i wanted to convert a province with a population near 5000. of course, this could be modelled by higher population losses caused by occupation, so instead of the usual EU -7 percent this should be at least 20 percent. then again, there is the emigration.
Think about these. All of these played a key role in human history and neglecting it isn't cool. and it's not hard to code either :)

P.S: Oh and by the way, i'm very satisfied by the facts that they are actually changing the european borders. Do I see Montenegro next to Albania in the Week 35 screenshot or is it just me? :)
 

Alexander Seil

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I support fully....that's gonna be damn lot of FUN! ;) 5-star ideas, seriously :D
 

Zagys

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It would be far too easy to depopulate enemy provinces, this would be very harmful to play balance.
 

State Machine

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It's a real issue. EU I's model definitely doesn't handle some significant population results. And having a city stand proxy for a province makes things even stranger.

Some population movements were very interesting, like expulsions of Jews, the Huegonots, English colonization. These have great potential for enriching game play if they could be modelled.
 

Ebusitanus

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Although the idea is quite refreshing, I don't see how it should really afect the game to an historical or significant point. Yes, there were migration moves and wholsale refugee swarms but I don't see it worthwhile to include beside a just small sidenote. To say millions moved when those countries barely had a couple millions themselves is ludicrous at best. Back then Spain would have had, what? say 6-8 million? Its nice but I wouldn't bother with such issues as the move of 10.000 refugees across a border...and then what? Milan recuperates and 70% of the fled population goes back?..Bah!

(Line edited out. This is a provocative question and notneeded on these boards). the situation can get very volatile very quickly) - Uglyduck
 
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unmerged(4868)

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Jul 12, 2001
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Originally posted by State Machine

Some population movements were very interesting, like expulsions of Jews, the Huegonots, English colonization. These have great potential for enriching game play if they could be modelled.

this point is moot. they already said there will be no hard-coded historical events in EU2 .... so it's of no use speculating any such "special events" on ever happening

it could only happen if it was some fluke random event
 

State Machine

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Originally posted by Suleyman


this point is moot. they already said there will be no hard-coded historical events in EU2 .... so it's of no use speculating any such "special events" on ever happening

it could only happen if it was some fluke random event
:)

This whole forum is moot. EU II features are already established. I view this forum as pure entertainment - a way of discussing the game against an invisible strawman, with the occasionsal coup of getting a response from Paradox about some feature - so as to inflame more "totally speculative" threads and posts.

;)
 

Blade!

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I think it would be an excellent ideat, if say 10% of the population of any province that changes hands moves tot he neighboring provinces. It wouldn't have much effect in one war.... but after 20 exchanges ro so...the province may lose most of its value!
 

unmerged(212)

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Jun 27, 2000
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I think substantial population shifts is great: it's historical and it could add substantially to the gameplay/replayability.

One additional thought: If a large part of the population of one country migrates into another country, the relationship improves between the two countries. The immigrants have a natural affinity for the "old country." While it occured after 1820, this is what happened with the Irish potato(e) famines. It also explains a large part of the "special relationship" between the US and UK in particular but also the US interest in Europe over the RoTW.
 

unmerged(5389)

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Aug 17, 2001
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well, if they included famine and greater tax incomes due to exceptional seasons in EU then i don't see why exchanges in population won't be included in EU2. face it people, emigration was one of the key elements in human history. if it isn't included, then i don't see a reason why anything should be included. and it really isn't hard to implement. i'm very sick with wars and occupation being the only ways to reduce population. if growth of population was so undisturbed and extremely high, countries like croatia would now have populations of 100 million. that's just unrealistic. the way things are now, even with -3 stability provinces don't lose population and i think this is rediculous. what about the 30 year war? population of germany dropped from 21 million to 7 million. try to simulate that in EU! and what about the turkish ethnic cleansing in the balkans or the french hugenots... EMIGRATION SHOULD BE ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTORS IN THE GAME! those were the key factors in making of cultural and population significances of a province. i'm from balkans, i know!
 

unmerged(5389)

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as i can see, i got pretty positive results for this idea. now it would be nice if someone from paradox could say word about it. and to all of you who read this, please leave at least a small note so we can get more publicity. i think this feature has been unreasonably dropped out of EU. so, let's try to make it happen in EU2.
 

unmerged(4238)

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Jun 5, 2001
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I *like* the idea in general. Many ways to go tho. I can see where it could become incredibly complex, depending on how far you go with the idea. But this could be a good thing.
 

unmerged(3787)

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May 12, 2001
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I think the easiest....

...place to start is in two areas:

1. with regular population decreases as we know them in EU. I.e. If I am sieging a province and after I take it the population has dropped 3000+ people... where did they go?

Some may have died BUT I wonder how many of them would have fled as refugess to neighboring friendly/neutral provinces? This should be modeled in the game. If I am steadily marching my way towards a nations capital, and that nation is surrounded on all sides by enemies, then I would expect that capital AND any relevant colonies owned by that nation to have a sizable population swell.

2. stability population effects should be more dramatic.

Emigration was a bigger force than what I am proposing I am sure - BUT we have to start somewhere. So let's start.

YKOil
 

unmerged(4273)

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Originally posted by JereRed
say, the province of milan has had an extremely bad harvest and 25 percent of population has emigrated to genoa (of course, the numbers may be too high). or, the turks just conquered bosnia, and 40 percent of population flees to croatia and dalmatia.

JereRed, great idea! I think that the one thing that I would like to see change here is that the conquering nation should have the option to prevent some percentage of the population from fleeing the province based upon the size of the army (ie... if you only have 3,000 guys, perhaps they can "close the border" to 20% of emigrants, while an army of 20,000 could prevent as much as say, 66% of emigrants or what not... these are just "play numbers"... a better way of determining how many would prevent how many would need to be devised)...

The benefit of ALLOWING emigration from a conquered province should be lowered nationalism, IMHO... all of the guys who just COULDN'T stand to be Turkish (or whatever) moved next door to Wallachia and decided to carry on the fight from there/settle and farm there... so maybe nationalism is 'halved' (wouldn't work with the current 3%, of course since that's an odd number :D )... The downside would be a lowered tax base, which would also results in being able to recruit more soldiers.

The benefit of DISALLOWING emigration from a conquered province should be that your tax base will decrease less than otherwise (depending on how many emigrants slip through the border anyhow) and that you will have similarly increased ability to draft troops. The downside of this should be INCREASED nationalism (above the 3%)... when you are forcing people to stay in a situation that they hate (esp. when it is their homeland that you are effecting), I think that people are more likely to rise up in rebellion.

Anyhow, your idea is very very interesting, and this is what came to my mind when you presented it... what does everyone think?