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Ruwaard

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Interesting post Aardvark Belly, but one could also argue or like that possibilities and immersion go a bit more hand in hand. This doesn't have to mean completely historical outcomes, but rather (much) less outcomes which are hard to believe for the era. I'd like to congratulate everyone (who wanted it) with their extra empires, but (partly) for the reason I give here, I'll mod them out. Hey, what's bad for someone's immersion might be good for the immersion of someone else. ;)
 

knppel

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Playing as duke of York, I've seen 4 plots to lower CA at the same time; none of them united against their liege.
+1 for this. There needs to be some mechanic so AI with similar plot targets join together. Annoying to see one Duke after another fail his indie war.

Suggestion:
Defensive pact option (diplomacy): Two neighboured rulers promise each other to join their wars when attacked.
Event to join any revolt against a liege, so the AI gets a % chance to join ANY revolt and not just get a few additional% on their own revolt chance which may trigger or not.
 

NewbieOne

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Not really. The "real" empires were the inventions of people in the first place. It is very possible that someone would want to invent the "Empire of Britannia" to further their own prestige.

That's true but invented titles are titular, like the Kingdoms of Trinacria, Cybrus, Nubia and a couple more, and a number of duchies in historical starts. The very idea of de iure is that it is the opposite of inventing something to further your own prestige.

Nothing wrong with the ability to go up from king (even in the form of spawning a titular empire with a custom name and integrating your kingdoms into it de iure after 100 years as per general rules), it's different when you have countries that never existed but pretend they did. If you look at the de iure map in 1066, a supposedly historical start, it shows you the supposedly already existing concept of a legally sound empire of Scandinavia, Francia etc., on par with the real kingdoms of Lotharingia or Burgundy that had gone into desuetude (actually, Burgundy was legally extant just not used by the holder much but anyway).

The fantasy empires are all possible, in theory, even if some of them are extremely unlikely. If history is wild, then wild things have to actually happen.

Again, the bone of contention here is the de iure map. Nothing wrong with there being a mechanism for a king to become an emperor after meeting some plausible conditions. On the other hand, much is wrong when the de iure map is full of fantasy.

I would not call it either balance or candy, but gameplay. The choice between historical accuracy and good gameplay is usually an agonizing one. I respect both approaches, having a great deal of experience looking at game design from either angle. I understand the historical arguments. However, though history might be King, gameplay... is Emperor.

The way I see it, if you meticulously reconstruct the provinces, dig through the lists of rulers of every little piece of land, providing ancestors, predecessors etc., assign the appropriate cultures for the appropriate provinces and game starts, so that one can start from any actual day of his choosing (like I picked 8 Feb 1296 in my last game), it all seems to be negated by a U-turn when you put fantasy empires on the map. (As opposed to making them creatable via events, plots, decisions etc., even with instant de iure assimilation.)

As for the gameplay value or learning curve of it, one still needs to go to landed_titles.txt to read the conditions, otherwise one can keep looking at the map in frustration, expecting them to work like standard (50% of the counties)... I don't buy it. Other than making an empire in every corner of the map so that all 4-5 human players in a multiplayer game can be emperors, I don't see the benefit, while I see so much which is lost by allowing such a large degree of fantasy in a historical game.
 

Stratagyfan101

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Biggest immersion killer for me is four things: assassination en masse, Castillian kingdoms being roflstomped by the Moors, Pagans getting roflstomped by the Scandinavians, Germans, and Polish, and the Seljuks never putting up a fight in Anatolia or Mesopotamia.

The worst is the Castillians. It is highly improbable by 1066 the Taifas could have turned the tide in Iberia without any exterior help.
 

nathiral

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I think the problem of ease of maintaining large kingdoms/empires is fivefold:

1) Rebellions don't team up, which means even if 60% of my empire revolts, I can often just make one enemy at a time capitulate fairly easily because they calculate war score as a % of their INDIVIDUAL area. If I have 100 counties and 50 revolt individually, it's trivial to just assault them one county at a time because they will never combine their armies to fight back. And taking a single county means I remove that army from the war instead of letting my fellow revolutionaries come help out.
2) Winning a battle is so very one-sided usually... 15k vs. 12k ends up with 9k on one side and 1k on the other. And a retreating/broken army moves at the same speed as a well-formed army. I think making the retreating army vanish if the defeat was bad enough or the odds bad enough and turn into levies to be re-raised would be better.
3) Holding a territory is trivial once it is sieged. A conquered territory should require some foreign manpower to hold. I know the game takes a bit of 'seed' levies from the victorious army, but then it lets the county raise the troops on its own as though it were already docile. Some form of 'loyalty' revolts should potentially occur if a player or AI leaves a rebelling territory without an occupying force (say 300? 500? in the castle). Having to fill up the castles of your defeated foes would drain the armies of a large empire still.
4) Soldier supplies replenish way too quickly. I can destroy a 20k stack from the HRE and he can raise a 15k stack in just the time it took to combine those 20k troops. And then 10k. And then 5k. The levies represented a large portion of the young male population, right? You can't say "Hey, all 16-25 year olds come with me!" and then expect there to be nearly the same amount if those are all killed. This would ensure that if an empire or kingdom has successive revolts or has a revolt after a particularly costly war (which 2 would increase), then they have a greater chance of success.
5) Raising levies angers lords mildly. But successively raising levies to the point where you're drafting peasants' children should start causing rebel armies to form to give some internal strife. These rebel armies should then oust the lord who wasn't protecting their kin and raise someone else to hold the county who then joins any active rebellion if there is one or starts one on his own. This would prevent the HRE or ERE (or my Castillian empire) from repeatedly decimating their own population for expansion.
 

NewbieOne

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Okay, another immersion problem:

The bastard icon. Inverted cross. That symbol suggests satanism. While being born out of wedlock was a stain on one's reputation (increased depending on the marital status and consanguinity of the parents) and fornication is a serious sin in Christian theology, it really shouldn't carry a symbol associated with satanism.

Instead, it could be a large diagonal or other red bar (the infamous 'baton rouge' on the coats of arms of bastards).

Really, bastards are neither children of satan, nor his worshippers.

(And many players are probably 'bastards' because of the frequency of illegitimacy in modern society. They could be hurt by the implication.)
 

malagasy

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Emre Yigit

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Okay, another immersion problem:

The bastard icon. Inverted cross. That symbol suggests satanism. While being born out of wedlock was a stain on one's reputation (increased depending on the marital status and consanguinity of the parents) and fornication is a serious sin in Christian theology, it really shouldn't carry a symbol associated with satanism.

Instead, it could be a large diagonal or other red bar (the infamous 'baton rouge' on the coats of arms of bastards).

Yes, I wonder why they didn't go with the bar sinister.... Well, the all-knowing Wikipedia states:

However, in medieval England, there was no single mark of difference for bastardy. Until the late fourteenth century, the same marks of cadency were used for both illegitimate and legitimate children, but thereafter the arms of some bastards took the form of a plain or party field with their fathers’ arms on a figure such as a bend, fess, chief, chevron or quarter.