I'm worried that paradox will remove armies from Stellaris.

[GAGA Extrem]

Yeah, I also wanted Stellaris to be Vicky 2 in space, but - alas - not exactly what I got.

 

[alxgvr]

It was a bit too fiddly in ES for my taste - at least if you are talking about the drop pods that you had to refill manually after use.


They do, but always consider the cost at which complexity does come. There is a reason why the current combat system is already more abstract than, let's say, HOI.

My suggestion was less about simplification and more about usability. Remove the over-the-top micromanagement to get armies into position and you can instead focus on making the actual combat more interesting.

Yes, the system has immense potential. For example, we could have air units that zip around in a planet's atmosphere (middle layer), fighting over air superiority and shooting down drop pods as they try to land. We could have planetary artillery and orbital satellite defence networks. Planets could have randomly generated maps where the units auto-move around, fighting over strongholds and key points. We could have an elaborate resistance / guirella warfare system that drags out the actual invasion for decades of ingame time for larger worlds.

However, with the current system that would probably become a bloated mess, making it more complex but not necessarily more fun.

Simple way you can do, is just remove transports, and stick armies to fleet. Here I suggested:

"25. Remove transport ships. Stick armies to fleet. @Wiz once said he want to change ground combat system. Indeed, there is too much micromanagement and headache. Build troops on specific planet(s), board them, move those ships to enemy planet, make sure they reached safely... And AI spams transports all around galactic map (to much false alerts). Your fleet distracts frequently from bombing planet to destroy 1-2 enemy transport ships. Suggestion is simple. Each ship can carry ground troops units like transport, depending on its class (except corvettes - they are too small). When ship is destroyed - all troops on board destroyed too. To build and load ground units on board: select fleet, press button "train army" in fleet window, training menu opens. You select armies you want to train, and game automatically selects nearby planets and starts building (game calculates distance to fleet, biding time, quantity of units, to finish building and transporting as soon as possible). After building is complete, troops travel to fleet in invisible background mode (like generals or scientists - not as physical unit who can be destroyed). Fleet is rally point."

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/simple-suggestions-to-make-ui-better.982119/

 

[Rubido]

Yeah, I also wanted Stellaris to be Vicky 2 in space, but - alas - not exactly what I got.

In Stellaris 2, maybe?

 

[alxgvr]

Yeah, I also wanted Stellaris to be Vicky 2 in space, but - alas - not exactly what I got.

We ALL want that!!!

Suply/demand, global market

 

[CurseUppl]

@alxgvr In a lot of sci-fi (Star Wars, Warhammer 40K), warships were so big they carried their own ground assault force, see the Star Destroyers assaulting Hoth in TESB, or even the one in Rogue One hovering above the city.

Agreed that, while I like the ground combat mechanic, the transport itself is a hassle, and ships from DDs up to BBs should be able to carry troop complements that you can easily change/modify/build/disband. IMO, there should be a tech (or Unity doctrine) that let's you subordinate the army to the navy, meaning that generals don't take up a leadership slot, or remove generals entirely, as armies could more accurately be described as marines/orbital assault forces.

Personally, I'd like to see admirals (who take a leadership slot) have a staff, which could include a general, as well as rear/vice admirals and flag captains, that you recruit from your leadership pool, but don't take a leadership slot.

Lastly, I'd like to see ground defence play a more important role. Garrisons should be easier to build across multiple worlds.

 

[fdlu]

Hopefully the will not abandon armies !!!!!

But a little more love into them would be fine. (e.g more attachments/types)
The invasion system "as is" is in general ok I think.

But, if they think about armies as "ship components" I would like to see
them as "shock troops/drop commandos". High firepower in the invasion
phase but no endurance. Say, after 3-5 turns they automatically loose
a lot of their strenght every turn. (due to limited supplies)

Make them some kind of a "fire brigade" this way. Crush rebellion, invade
lightly defended targets of oportunity. But still needing armies for a serious
invasion. They should also have a high cost and/or limited numbers.

Just my thought.
What I REALLY would like to see is the Master of Orion 3 System done
without the bugs !

 

[Elothan]

Personaly, I want the early game to stay the same, but upon a certain tech/shiptype, you'd get dropship pods or whatever as a component.

That makes (the more protected) armies be a part of your fleet power, reducing silly micromanagement like the current army system when things get large.
Maybe even different components for different types of armies.

 

[alxgvr]

Personaly, I want the early game to stay the same, but upon a certain tech/shiptype, you'd get dropship pods or whatever as a component.

That makes (the more protected) armies be a part of your fleet power, reducing silly micromanagement like the current army system when things get large.
Maybe even different components for different types of armies.

On eraly stage of the game you don't have to annex planets, really.

 

[Elothan]

On eraly stage of the game you don't have to annex planets, really.

You mean invade?
Agre for the most part, thou some events use transportship or armies. *cough*XenomorphCough*

 

[Alblaka]

in it's current state, removing armies would not make the gameplay experience any worse.

 

[T-Duke]

Imho ground invansions and battles should be enhanced and not simplified or , even worse, reduced.

 

[pieman]

Fleet attachments that take up slots or energy in ships would, for me at least, still lead to designated transporter fleets. Because my real warships would always use all slots and energy for fighting purposes. And fleet attachments for armies only could work. But would that eliminate the RP factor of genetically engineered dedicated warrior races? One might say that is unnecceserry anyway but half of the games actions are unnecceserry if not for RP reasons. I for one, would prefer the system now over simple attachments that say "this fleet has army power" (if it would be something like that)

You can make the different types of army into different types of modules for dedicated army slots, the same as how they have auxiliary slots etc on certain sections now.

like, a cruiser could just have the 'troop section' which has less weapon and/or utility slots, and replaces them with troop slots.

 

[I am Sovereign]

That you can spam as many assault armies as you want does not make it better. And that planet defenses are down to 0 so quickly.

All the intresting techs like xenomorphs cavalry or psionic warriors are being made obsolete.

 

[alxgvr]

Ships should not have any dedicated to ground troops modules or slots. It should be just static parameter for each ship.
Otherwise, player will have two fleets: one for fighting enemy fleets (as it now), another for transporting.
Because it is stupid to put ship with "drop pods modules" in to your main fleet, because they are weak.
You will keep "transoprt" fleet beside battle, and use it only after your main fleet will win the battle and secure star system for planet invasion.

Another words: we will have same old transport ships, but with some guns on them. And same stupid micromanagment (even more stupid: you will ned to put troops on board manually)

So, what's the point?

 

[Metztli]

I really want to see more depth into the ground combat, it could be really amazing and immersive feature of the game.Ground combat DLC will be great.

 

[Agamemnic]

I think Wiz indicated that he wants to streamline, not remove it. Something like having all fleets automatically carry armies with them, so you don't have to build them manually.

Ooh I'd love this. Perhaps armies can go into auxiliary slots or something. Would enrich the ship design greatly; space vs ground firepower trade-off n all. A lot of interesting stuff there IMO

At the moment it's a rather clunky feature. Take the generals for example...the marginal benefit is very questionable. Better off building more troops and using that influence on a colony or something. And then you have to babysit the armies to always have fleet support because once they are in a system alone, the AI goes straight Leroy Jenkins on them.

Has Wiz said anything about this "streamlining" coming up in 1.5?

 

[iniudan]

You can make the different types of army into different types of modules for dedicated army slots, the same as how they have auxiliary slots etc on certain sections now.

like, a cruiser could just have the 'troop section' which has less weapon and/or utility slots, and replaces them with troop slots.

Giving troop section to line ship still leave a people to deal with a transport navy, for if the section is not same space combat strength then other section, people are not gonna get those ship to join the main fleet.

Better make transport into an actual army space ship that you would build, which have slot for the troop type and attachment, would give them additional setting so most of the task can be automated according to your preference.

I would also actually have different class of troop transport, with the corvette like class basically just been the defenseless troop transport, we currently have, only having access to assault/occupation module.

Here a description of transport ship module I would have (Going with what GAGA said earlier in the tread):
-Assault/occupation: they are the troop transport and ground combat module, can equip troop, troop attachment and siege weapon.
-Air superiority: Atmospheric fighter bay to fight for the mid layer.
-Space Defense: A ship section dedicated toward orbital layer defense, so basically a section that act like a mobile orbital space station.

After conquest, transport can be ordered to occupy the planet (of course ship can be set to automatically occupy), taking time to redeploy equipment to defend the planet, making planetary fortification bonus available to you, but making it impossible to retreat quickly.

Also nice thing about that, is that it is usable defensively, by just deploying transport to your own planet. It should also be possible to build defensive non-mobile version of them, with cheaper maintenance, just need to rework the army tab to be better suited to the task (along removing assault troop, as transport now take care of them), as it would have unit in the 3 layers to take care of.

 

[jose2534]

Don't worry about it, it's seems that wiz is reconsidering the way that armies work. Maybe we will see more depth in battles, transportation or events during combat, not a simplification of the whole thing. But this is a "maybe" obviously, wiz tweeter is not, in a way, “official”.

Here he is talking of armies after a campaign he just won:

 

[Pyramid_Head]

Wiz said they want to replace armies with something. Invasion modules or something. He said they will not remove ground combat, not armies as they stand now without suitable replacement.

 

[I_am_Nemo]

Imo, the fun part of armies is picking what types to build, and then dropping them on planets to invade. Transports are something of a hassle, but given the AI's fondness for killing them, you basically end up just selecting and moving them with a navy anyhow. It's a couple more clicks, not a big deal. The only thing that really grates is adding attachments to your armies, and (if you don't build them all in one place) having to gather them to your rally points can be needless micro.

I wouldn't mind a system where you recruited/built armies, and then could attach them to fleets at any planet - maybe give it a bit of time delay. Then drop them at target planet. In terms of defense, maybe an army management page where you could assign different armies to garrison planets; would make it easier to upgrade your defense when you hit the point where defense armies are useless.

However, invasions stop being fun when you've launched your 30 planetary invasion in a single war, and it's just drop, embark, new planet, repeat. Part of this is down to the nature of warfare in Stellaris - often by the time I'm launching invasions, I've already beat the enemy's doomstack, and it's just a cleanup effort. Part of this is the nature of ground combat - watch my 20 psi armies/gene warriors pwn the AI's 12 defense armies + garrison is fun the first few times, but after that, not so much. There needs to be some limiting factor to make ground invasions something more than a formality; something that could force an attacker to take an extensive time, for instance. Otherwise, there's no real point to contesting them when the attacker can just bring more troops, and on the attacker end, it gets repetitive and tedious, especially when you're dealing with massive empires.