I'm NOT on a boat!! Navy/Naval/Transport [MEGA-THREAD]

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DreadLindwyrm

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Just as a fyi/nitpick, nothing in CK2 suggests that the shipwright building is constructing boats for the liege in particular. I've read it as representative of the level of infrastructure (ie it has a decent dock) of which you hire miscellaneous boats when you need them. But not every coastal province in the world has an appropriate level of development to have a worthwhile dock/collection of miscellaneous seafaring vessels. Which is something CK2 represented and CK3 doesn't.
And yet CK2 still let you build a top tier dock in provinces that by the nature of their coast are completely unsuited to be dockyards. You also end up with *practically* every coastal holding having massive shipyards, leading to excessively large fleets - that you have to raise *all* of from any given holding, rather than just what you need.
 
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Knotz

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And yet CK2 still let you build a top tier dock in provinces that by the nature of their coast are completely unsuited to be dockyards. You also end up with *practically* every coastal holding having massive shipyards, leading to excessively large fleets - that you have to raise *all* of from any given holding, rather than just what you need.

Yes.

You won't hear me saying CK2's system was particularly good but I'd rather have, in order of preference, an improvement on CK2's system or a direct port of it. Instead we just had it stripped.
 
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sstabeler

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It's worth noting that in the era Crusader Kings is set in, there wasn't actually naval combat as we would understand it in the first place. the first recorded use of the Line of Battle wasn't until 1500, and CK ends in the 15th century. Guns used to actually try to sink enemy ships (as opposed to kill the sailors) came from the same era.

In short, naval combat wasn't actually complicated enough to be worthwhile including in those days, since it was basically a case of two fleets trying to get close enough to board the enemy vessels. During the period Imperator is set, thye used ramming, so you got actual naval combat. During the early middle ages, though, you didn't really get warships as opposed to merchants pressed into service to transport troops. Hence, it's actually entirely realistic that Paradox don't bother with naval combat- during the period, it was just transports trying to board each other. Which means that if you have to include it, you can accurately simulate it by allowing infantry units to fight on sea provinces as well as on land.
 
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i could take or leave naval combat in the base game my only problem is not having the ability to do naval battles is going to hurt modding especially since alot of the overhaul mods take place in settings with tons of naval battles (looking at you GOT mod)
 
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DaPacemDomine

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I think it's wrong to characterize the game as having NO naval aspect. You don't know that and nothing we've been told gives any validity to that assumption. What we have been told is that naval mechanics won't involve the awful tedium of the cobweb of ship movement that CK2 had. We'll be embarking with a fleet which is how an army should embark, not ship by ship. The costs involved in naval transit and other factors to discourage or prevent naval landings in your territory remain unknown. Til that changes, we should take assumptions with a hefty pinch of salt.
 
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Olden Weiss

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You won't hear me saying CK2's system was particularly good but I'd rather have, in order of preference, an improvement on CK2's system or a direct port of it. Instead we just had it stripped.

Fair enough. However, let us not overlook the massive overhauls and improvements we've gotten on the entire game. That level of development requires a great deal of time and effort, and it comes at the cost of deciding which features can be stripped in favor of expanding upon others. They certainly could have ported or improved CK2's system, but the latter likely would have taken a great deal of time on the AI front.

A direct port, on the other hand, of a system that was a nuisance to so many... I imagine it was perceived as a waste of effort, particularly when the focus of CK3 seems to be on really getting the player into the game. As one review has said, the new system is a bit more active. Less time spent waiting for your fleets to build, and more spent pressing your claims. Generally, players will enjoy active play more than waiting, even if that wait brings with it time to plot.
 
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The Shacks

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As an Englishman I too think its bloody stupid. France never could just magic up a fleet big enough to transport all its troops to England and vice versa. Makes being an island nation or invading one bloody stupid. Removing the link between how many troops can I raise and how many ships can I raise (or pressgang from the merchants) is just another simplification and step away from Grand Strategy in Ck3. Couple other little simplifications they are doing, like magically raising all your troops in one spot instead of having each region raise their levvy then combine, which is a real shame. Paradox seemed to have listened a little too much to the We play on fast speed and hate clicking buttons vocal minority, probably beacuse they all whined for years over Stellaris. Will be a fun RP game though. Just less depth and challenge.
 
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KKrive500

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Can land-locked countries create a fleet/travel into the ocean? If so that is a huge problem and they should not be able to without a county bordering water. Or they should atleast have a huge penalty and time modifier to make a fleet.
 
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Olden Weiss

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Can land-locked countries create a fleet/travel into the ocean? If so that is a huge problem and they should not be able to without a county bordering water. Or they should atleast have a huge penalty and time modifier to make a fleet.

The way I understand it, land-locked countries can theoretically travel into the ocean, assuming they have military access through lands which border the water. There way or may not be a steeper cost for embarking this way, I couldn't say.


As an Englishman I too think its bloody stupid. France never could just magic up a fleet big enough to transport all its troops to England and vice versa. Makes being an island nation or invading one bloody stupid. Removing the link between how many troops can I raise and how many ships can I raise (or pressgang from the merchants) is just another simplification and step away from Grand Strategy in Ck3. Couple other little simplifications they are doing, like magically raising all your troops in one spot instead of having each region raise their levvy then combine, which is a real shame. Paradox seemed to have listened a little too much to the We play on fast speed and hate clicking buttons vocal minority, probably beacuse they all whined for years over Stellaris. Will be a fun RP game though. Just less depth and challenge.

As someone who comes squarely from the, "I play on the slowest speed and love clicking buttons" group (I literally increased the time it took for the slowest speed to advance a day in Imperator to ten seconds), please afford me a rebuttal.

With regards to fleets and island nations: France had the capability to invade England, it simply never had cause to do so. All the direct conflicts between the two were over territories on the mainland. This being alternate history, it's important that the ability for France to invade Britain be a possibility. I understand the argument for this being possible in CK2, however I maintain that CK2's system was obtuse and irritating more than it was fun and engaging.

There was no reason to expand upon that system in CK3 when so many other things have seen expansion. War is merely a means to temporary ends in CK3, not the primary vehicle by which one is meant to play the game. Even setting that aside, suppose one has put too little water in their cake mixture and it came out far too dry. Would one's guests be served if further ingredients were wasted trying to make that cake more presentable? Or would that time be better spent expanding the main course, such that a cake was no longer necessary?

With regards to "magically raising troops", on the other hand... This is historically just fine. Very, very few are the cases where a levy which was forming on the lord's army was intercepted by enemies en route. Why is this? Well, it's because levies en route did not necessarily "march" the way we envision it in the movies. The soldiers would have traveled light, avoiding larger forces by taking unbeaten paths and temporarily scattering if need be. They wouldn't have necessarily needed provisions, as such things could be gathered up from subject villages along the way and consolidated once the army was properly formed. Conversely, an enemy force already formed would keep reasonable ranks on the road. They would be easily spotted and would have with them all manner of baggage. This would make them considerably less mobile than levies who were on their way to report to the king.

If you think about it, this is exactly what CK3 is doing. These men aren't marching, they're traveling. They aren't even necessarily traveling in a cohesive body. Word may simply be sent out to each village that the count has received a summons to war, and one third of all fighting men are to make the journey to Kent in service to His Royal Highness the King, under the watchful eye of a few knights. And what other travel goes on in the game? Characters travel all the time. Wanderers, councilors, even lords. We see none of this on the map. The scale is too small to register. Why, then, should we see when 128 footmen from across a county boasting some 4,000 souls is making a journey to the capital? Let us also not forget those instances wherein levies of over a thousand in large enough domains could suddenly appear all in one cohesive group.

There is a formation period for the army, and that's good enough for me. It resonates with the actuality of most every military action of the period far more accurately than does a smattering of levies being picked off one by one before they can reach their lord. In CK2, most wars were won in the first three weeks, owing to how quickly one side could devour another's levies en route. That should not have been.
 
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Edit: and I've had really bad experiences with instant transports before. They've ruined otherwise very good games for me.
Which one?
It was a big meme in Civ5's community to hate the change towards no naval transport, but it was never truly justified. We all knew that the AI didn't know how to handle naval transports (Civ4 never fixed that issue), so changing it so that all units could navigate was for the better.
I can't think of other games.
I believe you're being hyperbolic here, because even if you don't like that mechanic, I don't see how it can ruin a game that you think is very good otherwise. At worst, what can it mean? That naval combat is irrelevant?
Sure, ideally everything would be covered in game and the AI would be able to handle everything. But when it's not the case, then automatic transports is the best solution I've seen in strategy games.

The Fatimids and the Byzantines besieging each other's capitals is indeed a CK2 classic. I do not think the new naval 'system' is going to worsen the issue that much... but it does not seem like the issue is being fixed either.
Do we know anything about how the AI chooses their targets?
 
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kobreti77

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It should be very easy to prevent the AI from simply jumping onto the water every time a fleeing army reaches a coastline, and only use it when they have a concrete destination across the sea.

And yet you can see that the AI was doing just that on multiple occasions in the preview build.
We can just hope it is / can be fixed.
 
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Maziga

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Just less depth and challenge.

Sorry, you're saying there was depth and challenge in gathering all your fleets/armies together? What, exactly, is deep or challenging about any of that? As far as I can see, they were two of the most shallow, simple mechanics in the game, and I'm not sorry at all to see them go.

EDIT:
As an Englishman I too think its bloody stupid. France never could just magic up a fleet big enough to transport all its troops to England and vice versa.

And as a fellow Englishman, I think I should probably tell you about Louis VIII of France's invasion of England in 1215, when he was still just Prince Louis (for some reason, this is never taught in English schools). He somehow did manage to magic up a fleet big enough to invade, captured Winchester, controlled half of England and was proclaimed (but crucially not crowned) King of England. However, King John died at a most inopportune moment, and most of the English barons supporting Louis switched sides; after his navy was defeated at the Battle of Sandwich, Louis signed the Treaty of Lambeth and retreated back to France.
 
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monsterfurby

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As an Englishman I too think its bloody stupid. France never could just magic up a fleet big enough to transport all its troops to England and vice versa. Makes being an island nation or invading one bloody stupid. Removing the link between how many troops can I raise and how many ships can I raise (or pressgang from the merchants) is just another simplification and step away from Grand Strategy in Ck3. Couple other little simplifications they are doing, like magically raising all your troops in one spot instead of having each region raise their levvy then combine, which is a real shame. Paradox seemed to have listened a little too much to the We play on fast speed and hate clicking buttons vocal minority, probably beacuse they all whined for years over Stellaris. Will be a fun RP game though. Just less depth and challenge.

I mean... the entire history of the British Isles from antiquity to the middle ages is one of successful naval invasions, especially in the timeframe of the game (Saxons, Norse, Normans) that were possible precisely because shipping troops across the North Sea was exactly that simple.

Britain didn't get to really benefit from its geography until organized naval warfare and standing navies became a thing.
 
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