I'm NOT on a boat!! Navy/Naval/Transport [MEGA-THREAD]

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hdo

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If that is all that needs to happen then that's not a mechanic, that's a trivial action which was rightfully removed. If there was actual shipbuilding where you have to invest in navy, maintain ships, research new ship types, etc. that's a completely different story.
And look where removing that trivial action landed us. Armies doing suicide landings for each others capitals from half way across the Europe, armies escaping to sea when in the middle of hostile territory, boring predictable AI always rushing your capital. No difference between island nation and landlocked nation, etc...

I am not against simplification. Simplification can be extremely good decision. But the way navy is simplified now, it is done poorly and brought more trouble than it brought convenience. I don't see CK3 bringing back navy. It's already committed to simplified warfare in general and not just navy. But the simplified version needs to be reworked.
 
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Deshiba

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Armies doing suicide landings for each others capitals from half way across the Europe, armies escaping to sea when in the middle of hostile territory, boring predictable AI always rushing your capital. No difference between island nation and landlocked nation, etc...
AI Behavior and navy/boat mechanics are not one and the same. Even if there was a tedious interaction for the player, that's not an indication that AI would act differently then it does now.

As stated, I'm not against a more in-depth well executed navy mechanic. But if it's literally "'Set Rally point' and 'Raise all Navy' and 'Attach to Transport' " that's not really in depth and well executed, its just extra busy work for the player with 0 impact on AI or the way you play the game.

(reminder, I have not played CK2 so I don;t know how it was there)
 
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hdo

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AI Behavior and navy/boat mechanics are not one and the same. Even if there was a tedious interaction for the player, that's not an indication that AI would act differently then it does now.

As stated, I'm not against a more in-depth well executed navy mechanic. But if it's literally "'Set Rally point' and 'Raise all Navy' and 'Attach to Transport' " that's not really in depth and well executed, its just extra busy work for the player with 0 impact on AI or the way you play the game.

(reminder, I have not played CK2 so I don;t know how it was there)
I agree that AI behavior and navy mechanics are not one and the same. If they could solve how AI is acting in war, I would not mind the current navy system at all.
In CK2 navy system acted as a barrier against AI doing naval operations all the time. So naturally me, and other are pointing at the current naval system for problematic AI behavior.
 
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Deshiba

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I agree that AI behavior and navy mechanics are not one and the same. If they could solve how AI is acting in war, I would not mind the current navy system at all.
In CK2 navy system acted as a barrier against AI doing naval operations all the time. So naturally me, and other are pointing at the current naval system for problematic AI behavior.
Understandably so. But in this case I think the problem is that the barrier for AI spamming navy missions isn't working properly. Namely the gold cost for boarding doesn't seem to be functioning.

I've had a game where I was playing in Ireland and I had my army stationed in the Desmond county between the cities in Ormond and Desmond. The AI was invading by boat landing directly on the Desmond city. When landed they would immediately board again because they would lose the fight. The 2100 strong army landed and boarded over 30 times.

The boarding cost seems to be ignored, or somehow the AI gets inexhaustible gold during war. (preventing AI from doing the same action more then 3 times would have fixed this particular issue too)
 
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hdo

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Understandably so. But in this case I think the problem is that the barrier for AI spamming navy missions isn't working properly. Namely the gold cost for boarding doesn't seem to be functioning.

I've had a game where I was playing in Ireland and I had my army stationed in the Desmond county between the cities in Ormond and Desmond. The AI was invading by boat landing directly on the Desmond city. When landed they would immediately board again because they would lose the fight. The 2100 strong army landed and boarded over 30 times.

The boarding cost seems to be ignored, or somehow the AI gets inexhaustible gold during war. (preventing AI from doing the same action more then 3 times would have fixed this particular issue too)
Yes I've experienced something similar and it is extremely frustrating. Raise the gold cost, raise the embark/disembark time, designate only certain provinces as embarkable/disembarkable for sizable armies, etc....I don't know how the problem should be solved, but there is an undeniable problem and it needs to be fixed.
 

Reckall

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I mean...the extent of 'mirco-managing' in CK2 people complain about is literally clicking three buttons. 'Set Rally point' and 'Raise all Navy' and 'Attach to Transport' There was no complex system you had to learn for navy because it was the exact same mechanism as the army but with separate button for ships. But to each their own I guess.
BTW, and as I wrote, it isn't that you were forced to do that every ten minutes or so. It was part of the planning when you went to war (and wars in CKII had two requirements: think hard if you are ready to go to war and keep it short; a single misguided war could waste decades of hard growth).

So, yes, I found CKII system really immersive. Your vassals raised their ships, you planned where you wanted to embark ("optimum" provinces gained - strictly in my mind - the "traditional embarking site" badge) and then you launched your seaborne offensive.

In all fairness some coordinated stunts I was able to pull were unhistorical, because the technology of the time couldn't allow for, for example, simultaneous landings in different provinces. But my point is that organising and coordinating your ships and your armies in times of war was part of the fun, not a chore.

With the current system... Well... "Raise, oh ships, from the bottomless waters!!" should be a cool moment in Dominions 5 (and something you are able to pull every then and now, not always), but such a spell has nothing to do with CK.
 
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Brian Bóroimhe

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'Set Rally point'
Hold on..... You could set a rally point in CK2? fml. the amount of time I played and never realised that..

Although to be honest in ck2 I usually used my boats to minimise the micromanagement of raising my levies, by raising the boats alongside them and embarking everything that could before sending them all to a rendezvous location to pick up the left overs.


Understandably so. But in this case I think the problem is that the barrier for AI spamming navy missions isn't working properly. Namely the gold cost for boarding doesn't seem to be functioning.

I've had a game where I was playing in Ireland and I had my army stationed in the Desmond county between the cities in Ormond and Desmond. The AI was invading by boat landing directly on the Desmond city. When landed they would immediately board again because they would lose the fight. The 2100 strong army landed and boarded over 30 times.

The boarding cost seems to be ignored, or somehow the AI gets inexhaustible gold during war. (preventing AI from doing the same action more then 3 times would have fixed this particular issue too)

There is a little more than just the AI priorities that are an issue though.
Last night I watched the king of landlocked Hungary ship 7000 troops over to a war in Scotland..
I'm hoping for a very dramatic overhaul of everything naval when they do the republics dlc.
 

Deshiba

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Last night I watched the king of landlocked Hungary ship 7000 troops over to a war in Scotland..
I see nothing wrong with a landlocked country hiring/buying some boats to float their army. Raiding farther away countries, or helping allies are valid reasons to do so, don't you agree?
 
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BTW, and as I wrote, it isn't that you were forced to do that every ten minutes or so. It was part of the planning when you went to war (and wars in CKII had two requirements: think hard if you are ready to go to war and keep it short; a single misguided war could waste decades of hard growth).
It was the exact same sequence of identical actions every war. It wasn't planning, it was repetitive. And note that your "set rally point, set naval rally point, embark all" was only three clicks if all your holdings were on the same landmass; islands screwed things up in multiple ways. For instance, the pathfinding algorithm could not handle land rally points on multiple, unconnected landmasses, so if you held land in both the British Isles and the continent (as England does in every post-Hastings start date) and you tried to put rally points on, say, London and Bordeaux, your army would bug out and refuse to move at all (meaning you could only realistically do so on half your provinces; your navy could handle multiple rally points just fine, but the land rally points didn't. More broadly, individual islands (like the Faroes or Balearics) were a massive pain with the system, as they would require you to manually spend an extra click (at least; if you didn't put a separate naval rally point on each island, you'd need to also manually tell the island's navy to not go to the general rally point, then select that island's garrison, embark them, and then tell the navy to go back where it was going from, and heaven help you if the island's boat levy was 1 boat short of being able to carry its army).

The only decision involved in that side of things was whether you cared enough about the extra 100 men from the Faroes to bother with multiple extra clicks.

In addition, as CK2 had vassals pay maintenance for their own levies, boat transport was actually cheaper in CK2 than it is now (as you could raise all your vassals' boat levies and use them for free indefinitely).
 
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Vlad123

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I mean...the extent of 'mirco-managing' in CK2 people complain about is literally clicking three buttons. 'Set Rally point' and 'Raise all Navy' and 'Attach to Transport' There was no complex system you had to learn for navy because it was the exact same mechanism as the army but with separate button for ships. But to each their own I guess.
True! Click three button not are micromangment...the excuses for not wanting the fleet again are often meaningless "micromangment" go play victoria 2, THAT is micromangment! Three button micromangment...where would we end up?
 
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Brian Bóroimhe

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Raiding farther away countries, or helping allies are valid reasons to do so, don't you agree?
I do, and honestly I'm of two minds about the whole thing really. It certainly adds to the game's challenge when a landlocked central European kingdom shows up with a huge army to take part in a minor border conflict in Scotland. But you cannot seriously try to say that this is anything less than a completely absurd event for 108X. It's just not remotely credible. For France, yeah sure, there's even historical precedence for that (200+ years later anyway), but I'm sure we can both agree that the geographical context bears some relevance here.

Not that CK2's system was flawless by any measure, but one of the really good things about it was that if you didn't have access to sufficient naval capacity to ship your whole army at once you would have to ferry them across a body of water in detachments, leaving the first wave vulnerable to assault before reinforcements arrive.

Something like this would go a long way. Not saying they couldn't hire some transports in flanders or wherever when they get there, but enough to take the whole army in one go seems a bit of a stretch.
 
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Vlad123

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It was the exact same sequence of identical actions every war. It wasn't planning, it was repetitive. And note that your "set rally point, set naval rally point, embark all" was only three clicks if all your holdings were on the same landmass; islands screwed things up in multiple ways. For instance, the pathfinding algorithm could not handle land rally points on multiple, unconnected landmasses, so if you held land in both the British Isles and the continent (as England does in every post-Hastings start date) and you tried to put rally points on, say, London and Bordeaux, your army would bug out and refuse to move at all (meaning you could only realistically do so on half your provinces; your navy could handle multiple rally points just fine, but the land rally points didn't. More broadly, individual islands (like the Faroes or Balearics) were a massive pain with the system, as they would require you to manually spend an extra click (at least; if you didn't put a separate naval rally point on each island, you'd need to also manually tell the island's navy to not go to the general rally point, then select that island's garrison, embark them, and then tell the navy to go back where it was going from, and heaven help you if the island's boat levy was 1 boat short of being able to carry its army).

The only decision involved in that side of things was whether you cared enough about the extra 100 men from the Faroes to bother with multiple extra clicks.

In addition, as CK2 had vassals pay maintenance for their own levies, boat transport was actually cheaper in CK2 than it is now (as you could raise all your vassals' boat levies and use them for free indefinitely).
Maybe you haven't played the same Ck2 that I played, but if you keep the levy of the vassals too much they get angry, more and more!
 
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Maybe you haven't played the same Ck2 that I played, but if you keep the levy of the vassals too much they get angry, more and more!
They do (on non-crusade offensive wars, if they are non-warlike religions; Vikings, for instance, can keep them raised indefinitley).

And I don't care about them being angry; if I'm using their army levies they get angry at me anyway, and don't get any more angry for me having their boats raised as well, so it makes no difference.

If I'm not (which is fairly rare that I am fighting a prolonged war and not using my vassal levies as well, but whatever), then my coastal vassals get angry at me but the rest of my vassals are unaffected, so I still don't care (as my coastal vassals aren't enough on their own to challenge me anyway; CK2 factions were ridiculously easy to manage as a player).
 
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It was the exact same sequence of identical actions every war. It wasn't planning, it was repetitive.

Well, no. It depended from the nature of the specific war. Invading Norway to annex that kingdom to the Empire of Scandinavia was quite different than planning an end run in Catholic lands to disrupt a crusade.

And note that your "set rally point, set naval rally point, embark all" was only three clicks if all your holdings were on the same landmass; islands screwed things up in multiple ways.

Then you had "plan B": pause the game, raise the fleets first (you couldn't select them with drag-select if you had armies raised), drag-select the British ones and send them to a rally point. Then drag-select the French ones and send them to a different one (or the same if you wanted to concentrate your seapower). Done.

It may sound like micromanaging, but I actually spent more time in writing this than doing it in CKII. And it still was part of planning your war anyway.
The only decision involved in that side of things was whether you cared enough about the extra 100 men from the Faroes to bother with multiple extra clicks.
I guess that the lords of the time wondered about something similar.

In addition, as CK2 had vassals pay maintenance for their own levies, boat transport was actually cheaper in CK2 than it is now (as you could raise all your vassals' boat levies and use them for free indefinitely).
They were not free (even if nordic, seafaring and worshippers with specific "seabound" beliefs enjoyed massive discounts). A single ship in CKII cost 0.45 gold/month. It doesn't matter who is paying for it: it is still gold being syphoned from your realm. If you don't need ships in CKII then you should lower those levies ASAP.
 
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and don't get any more angry for me having their boats raised as well, so it makes no difference.
Are you sure about that? It always seemed to me that vassals rate of opinion loss was correlated to the amount they were paying for their raised levies. Larger vassals seemed to accrue the penalty faster and whenever ships were raised it rocketed up.

Actually not true, raised vassal ships cost nothing for either you or the vassal
No the vassal definitely paid for their ships when you raised them. That was the whole idea, you pay the cost not in gold upkeep but in pissed off vassals (leading to less tax income and levies from them until they are happy again)

If you don't need ships in CKII then you should lower those levies ASAP.
Yeah, you never wanted to have a fleet of ships raised and doing nothing, raise, gather, use, disband. Unless you're a norse or berber raider. Your own ships would swiftly bankrupt you if forgotten about and your vassals could lead to rebellion or powerful vassals joining factions etc. when you forgot about them otherwise.
 
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So when you are landlocked you are supposed to sit there and be unable to defend yourself?
Where is the fun in that...

There is a RED message that tells you that you are being sieged...

No, I'm suggesting when you're landlocked you defend the land you own rather than get in a boat and attack somewhere half way across the continent
 
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Well, no. It depended from the nature of the specific war. Invading Norway to annex that kingdom to the Empire of Scandinavia was quite different than planning an end run in Catholic lands to disrupt a crusade.
Yes, land wars were slightly different in that you didn't have to raise your fleets. But once you were committed to an overseas war, it made no difference planning wise whether you as, for instance, an English monarch, were invading France, Scandinavia or the Holy Land. It involved the exact same sequence of clicks. And the fact that you had to make a few extra clicks didn't really make much strategic difference in your planning either.

Planning should be more than just "do I make these clicks or not." It should involve actual decision making and weighing options, which the CK2 system really didn't.
Then you had "plan B": pause the game, raise the fleets first (you couldn't select them with drag-select if you had armies raised), drag-select the British ones and send them to a rally point. Then drag-select the French ones and send them to a different one (or the same if you wanted to concentrate your seapower). Done.

It may sound like micromanaging, but I actually spent more time in writing this than doing it in CKII. And it still was part of planning your war anyway.
It's still a process that has to be implemented every single war involving overseas travel (and realistically, your levies from northern Norway would have sailed to Oslo rather than marched through the Norwegian mountains, but no one was crazy enough to deal with all that extra micromanagement in CK2). And it's not "planning" if it involves no real decisions; you do the exact same thing every time.

Incidentally, if you hold down ALT while you are dragging and selecting, it will select ships instead of soldiers.
I guess that the lords of the time wondered about something similar.
Because they didn't want to deal with the expensive of paying for them, not because they were too lazy to do a couple of extra clicks. If you raise all your troops (which most of the time is how you would handle major mobilizations), they were raised and being paid for (either by money or vassal opinion) whether you used them or not unless you manually went around to all your islands and disbanded them.

They were not free (even if nordic, seafaring and worshippers with specific "seabound" beliefs enjoyed massive discounts). A single ship in CKII cost 0.45 gold/month. It doesn't matter who is paying for it: it is still gold being syphoned from your realm. If you don't need ships in CKII then you should lower those levies ASAP.
Vassals had no real problems developing their realms normally. They were generally limited by technology (which money didn't affect). The main impact was that they were less able to throw feasts/summer fairs/great hunts every year, which I don't remotely care about.

Are you sure about that? It always seemed to me that vassals rate of opinion loss was correlated to the amount they were paying for their raised levies. Larger vassals seemed to accrue the penalty faster and whenever ships were raised it rocketed up.
Almost positive. The big problem was that it was very easy to forget about some of your ship levies, leave them raised when you disband your main fleet/army after the war was over, and leave your vassal increasingly angry. But that was a UI issue (it could also happen with e.g. soldiers in Iceland or wherever, although there you normally noticed when you went to declare war and got a "you can't do that, you have armies raised" warning), not a ship issue.
 
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Yes, land wars were slightly different in that you didn't have to raise your fleets. But once you were committed to an overseas war, it made no difference planning wise whether you as, for instance, an English monarch, were invading France, Scandinavia or the Holy Land.

Sometimes it didn't, sometimes it did. As Scandinavia I always started my wars (both offensive and difensive) by asking myself "Do I need the navy? And, if yes, how?" Different kingdoms vs. different kingdoms could require different naval tactics. As I mentioned, conquering Norway required a totally different set of plans compared to defending against a crusade coming from the southern kingdoms through Denmark.
Planning should be more than just "do I make these clicks or not." It should involve actual decision making and weighing options, which the CK2 system really didn't.
Why, "making and weighing options" was the first thing I put my mind to when I was at war. Just one example: "Mercenaries?"
It's still a process that has to be implemented every single war involving overseas travel (and realistically, your levies from northern Norway would have sailed to Oslo rather than marched through the Norwegian mountains, but no one was crazy enough to deal with all that extra micromanagement in CK2).
This is the very reason as why I mentioned mercenaries. You could triple your army with them but they were a killer on your finances. Going bankrupt meant losing the best part of your army, quite possibly the war and... er... finding yourself bankrupt in the process.

This meant that you had to win the war fast, and "marching through the Norwegian mountains" didn't cut it. You needed the navy for a real blitzkrieg.
Incidentally, if you hold down ALT while you are dragging and selecting, it will select ships instead of soldiers.
I didn't knew that, but... one click less, then?
 
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I don't have time to read all 33 pages but I don't... mind the change mostly. I think I'd much prefer the option, either just hire out the boats OR go to a port and use navy levies. Give me the option to either spend gold or spend time to make the navy.
 
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I don't have time to read all 33 pages but I don't... mind the change mostly. I think I'd much prefer the option, either just hire out the boats OR go to a port and use navy levies. Give me the option to either spend gold or spend time to make the navy.

Ditto. Sure, it needs some tweaking still but so do other parts of the game. One thing I'd like to see is that shattered retreating armies can not get on a boat and flee that way. Maybe making it a feature of the vikings that they can do that but others can't. Also add in a cost for while the troops are on the boats as well as increased attrition to dissuade their use a bit. Right now I'm seeing nations getting on the boats and traveling all over the place. In my 867 start I'm seeing random small nations like Rugan traveling over to the British Isles and taking a patch of land. I can see the bigger nations like Sweden doing that, but not the small little nations that are a single county or duchy.
 
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