I'm NOT on a boat!! Navy/Naval/Transport [MEGA-THREAD]

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merulaalba

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But, are they listening. I am hoping they are....on the other hand most of the players seem to enjoy the game immensely (it is meme material on the subreddit)....so maybe that s what they are aiming for

I am a bit worried.

Also, nowhere on forums, I have seen devs responding to any of the issues that we raised...
 
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Vlad123

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I hope they are noting down (noting well!) And then correct everything! Because otherwise they risk getting a slap like on I: R. A game that I loved, failed, I repeat: FAILED due to a lack of balance (quite important) that the manager (there was an indie, only one person) did not know / wanted to solve. Paradox is a company (also listed on the stock exchange) so I expect it to solve this problem promptly. If, on the other hand, he leaves the problem to rot, until the next DLC / patch ... well I think there won't be many playing it.
 
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I honestly don't mind the new system. I'm sure if/when they do a dedicated naval overhaul with combat there will be a better system. All I'd really like to see is more clarity on what it's going to cost me to move troops over water. For whatever reason I find the tooltips to be inconsistent in giving me a cost or not. Maybe I'm tryingto move them at the wrong zoom level or something. I think maybe it's a little too cheap to use boats right now, but that's a balance issue more than a mechanic. And I've primarily been playing as vikings, so cheaper does make more sense there.

I hope they do add naval combat into the game! I can see three potential possibilities:

I think it is basically impossible that they'll just make it a DLC. They'd then have to manage two extremely different versions of the game: one with naval combat, and the other without it. I would be absolutely floored if they decide to go down that route.

One alternative is with a free patch. This is much more likely, but there are some reasons to think it won't happen: patching in a naval combat system would take a lot of work, and I'm sure Paradox would rather move on to money-making opportunities.

The third, and most likely, possibility is a free patch+DLC combo, where they offer naval combat in the free patch but add bells and whistles to it with the DLC.

(They could also never add it, but who wants that?)
 
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Vlad123

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I hope they do add naval combat into the game! I can see three potential possibilities:

I think it is basically impossible that they'll make it a DLC. They'd then have to manage two extremely different versions of the game: one with naval combat, and the other without it. I would be absolutely floored if they decide to go down that route.

One alternative is with a free patch. This is much more likely, but there are some reasons to think it won't happen: patching in a naval combat system would take a lot of work, and I'm sure Paradox would rather move on to money-making opportunities.

The third possibility is a free patch+DLC combo, where they offer naval combat in the free patch but add bells and whistles to it with the DLC.
I think with DLC make with Man the guns of hoi4. build varius type of war ship: catpultship, greek fire ship, skorpio/huge crossbow-ship, the first ship with gun...etc
 
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Azerom

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I hope they do add naval combat into the game! I can see three potential possibilities:

I think it is basically impossible that they'll make it a DLC. They'd then have to manage two extremely different versions of the game: one with naval combat, and the other without it. I would be absolutely floored if they decide to go down that route.

One alternative is with a free patch. This is much more likely, but there are some reasons to think it won't happen: patching in a naval combat system would take a lot of work, and I'm sure Paradox would rather move on to money-making opportunities.

The third possibility is a free patch+DLC combo, where they offer naval combat in the free patch but add bells and whistles to it with the DLC.

The free patch+DLC combo is more likely since it's the way Paradox usually approach updates : if you remember Horse Lord or Rajajs of India, big technical features (in this example the map upgrade) was included in the free patch with the gameplay features in the DLC proper.

My guess would be a merchant republic DLC with basic ships features + trade system as a free patch and the republic gameplay in the DLC.
 
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knppel

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What disturbs me is the omnipresence of ships. Anyone has them, anywhere, at any given time.
I can have my army running around the world and set sail at any given point, any given time,and if I don't do it, AI does still.

No one stops me from taking their trees or conscripting their traders.

lol
 
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Fallenangel85

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What disturbs me is the omnipresence of ships. Anyone has them, anywhere, at any given time.
I can have my army running around the world and set sail at any given point, any given time,and if I don't do it, AI does still.

No one stops me from taking their trees or conscripting their traders.

lol

I mean ships are not a new invention, not even remotely.
Even 10000 years ago people were using boats already to travel along the coast.
That's also why all big civilizations were along rivers, easy way to transport stuff.

It was more weird not to know how to boat in ck2.
 
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emperorgomer

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I think naval combat would be important for like Venice as a way to deter its more powerful neighbors, Also the Byzantine empire did engage in a lot of naval warfare during the era as well.
 
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hdo

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I mean ships are not a new invention, not even remotely.
Even 10000 years ago people were using boats already to travel along the coast.
That's also why all big civilizations were along rivers, easy way to transport stuff.

It was more weird not to know how to boat in ck2.
No one is denying that medieval folk had know-how or technology of sailing.

The problem is that:

-You shouldn't have access to boats anytime and anywhere, even when you are in enemy territory. If you are in a well developed county, sure you could commandeer ships at big ports. But how are you getting enough boats for an army in middle of nowhere development level 7 counties? You can't just build sea worthy boats anytime you please. We are not talking about rafts here.

-More importantly, the current system hurts game play experience. War is always defensive(unless your troops massive outnumber enemies'), it's a whack-a-mole simulator, nations from across the world sieging down each others' capitals, etc.
Historicity be damned, if the currernt naval system didn't make warfare such an annoying part of gameplay, not as many people would care about the change.
 
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Fallenangel85

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No one is denying that medieval folk had know-how or technology of sailing.

The problem is that:

-You shouldn't have access to boats anytime and anywhere, even when you are in enemy territory. If you are in a well developed county, sure you could commandeer ships at big ports. But how are you getting enough boats for an army in middle of nowhere development level 7 counties? You can't just build sea worthy boats anytime you please. We are not talking about rafts here.

-More importantly, the current system hurts game play experience. War is always defensive(unless your troops massive outnumber enemies'), it's a whack-a-mole simulator, nations from across the world sieging down each others' capitals, etc.
Historicity be damned, if the currernt naval system didn't make warfare such an annoying part of gameplay, not as many people would care about the change.

CK2 warfare was way worse. Every big war was like fighting cancer.
Catching enemy armies is way easier now and you can end wars quickly with a bit of luck.
I really only play defensive when I'm weaker than the enemy, otherwise I will siege them down and "raise" armies at home only if necessary.

You can build boats with wood. Wood is available almost everywhere.
In coastal regions you could steal the boats as well, or buy them.
I know it's not perfect for every situation, but it's a game and balance is important.
In CK2 you had the fun situation of being unable to fight the enemy at all, because he could come with his boats but you couldn't.


People are just inexperienced with the systems right now...
 
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I stopped playing after losing my war as a near emperor level power to a duchy because they boat rushed my capital and took it.

There were no notifications that I was under siege, it made no sense at all that they'd leave as it was bloody miles away and it's just dumb.

I have countless hours on CK2, Stellaris and EU4, but this sort of gamey bollocks has broken my interest at the moment.
 
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CK2 warfare was way worse. Every big war was like fighting cancer.
Catching enemy armies is way easier now and you can end wars quickly with a bit of luck.
I really only play defensive when I'm weaker than the enemy, otherwise I will siege them down and "raise" armies at home only if necessary.

You can build boats with wood. Wood is available almost everywhere.
In coastal regions you could steal the boats as well, or buy them.
I know it's not perfect for every situation, but it's a game and balance is important.
In CK2 you had the fun situation of being unable to fight the enemy at all, because he could come with his boats but you couldn't.


People are just inexperienced with the systems right now...
Maybe look at how the historical crusades went and tell me armies could just construct ships(and again, sea worthy vessels not rafts) with wood and commandeer ships wherever they wanted. This is just flat out not how things work. An entire crusade was derailed because they couldn't pay Venice for transportation/logistical service. Would that have happened if anyone can just make/steal ships wherever and whenever they wanted? Also the reason why Vikings were vikings is because they had this ability to embark/disembark wherever they wanted, something in CK3 everyone can do not just vikings. The current navy system just isn't realistic. If you say it is that is just bonkers.

And no, I am doing pretty well with my playthrough. Taken the Byzantine throne for myself starting from a duke. It's not a question of being inexperienced. It's how the dumbed down naval system makes entire terrains, and terrain dependent buildings, supply system/attrition system meaningless because everyone is launching medieval D-day landings everywhere.
 
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it's a whack-a-mole simulator, nations from across the world sieging down each others' capitals, etc.
This could be easily fixed by adding a "naval range" that limits the... uhm... range of your ships (and tied to your tech level).

This could also partially solve the "Power of Jesus compels ships to raise from open water!" ridiculousness. Now Jesus will raise ships only if the sea zone is within your naval range.

It still would not be a solution for everything else naval-related.
 
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Fallenangel85

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I stopped playing after losing my war as a near emperor level power to a duchy because they boat rushed my capital and took it.

There were no notifications that I was under siege, it made no sense at all that they'd leave as it was bloody miles away and it's just dumb.

I have countless hours on CK2, Stellaris and EU4, but this sort of gamey bollocks has broken my interest at the moment.

Smart of the AI, the only way it could have won and it did.
It's totally your mistake for letting this happen.

Btw, if you lead your own Army that cannot happen :)
 
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Fallenangel85

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Maybe look at how the historical crusades went and tell me armies could just construct ships(and again, sea worthy vessels not rafts) with wood and commandeer ships wherever they wanted. This is just flat out not how things work. An entire crusade was derailed because they couldn't pay Venice for transportation/logistical service. Would that have happened if anyone can just make/steal ships wherever and whenever they wanted? Also the reason why Vikings were vikings is because they had this ability to embark/disembark wherever they wanted, something in CK3 everyone can do not just vikings. The current navy system just isn't realistic. If you say it is that is just bonkers.

And no, I am doing pretty well with my playthrough. Taken the Byzantine throne for myself starting from a duke. It's not a question of being inexperienced. It's how the dumbed down naval system makes entire terrains, and terrain dependent buildings, supply system/attrition system meaningless because everyone is launching medieval D-day landings everywhere.

"or buy them"....
And viking have a huge bonus to see travel in the game.

All you need to do to block such a boat rush is hit the "Raise Army" button and that's it.
And Constantinople is the hardest to siege place in the whole game, how long do you have to sleep to let it be sieged down?

If you really want to hide behind terrain just have your capital land locked form all sides...

It's almost certain that we will get Republics in the future, and with that maybe some changes to ships.
 
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I mean ships are not a new invention, not even remotely.
Even 10000 years ago people were using boats already to travel along the coast.
That's also why all big civilizations were along rivers, easy way to transport stuff.

It was more weird not to know how to boat in ck2.
The Mongols had entire armies of horse archers...so everyone should
The English had longbowmen..so everyone should
The Venetians had a sea trade empire..so everyone should
Rome was a centre of learning...so every city should be
etc etc
 
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"or buy them"....
And viking have a huge bonus to see travel in the game.

All you need to do to block such a boat rush is hit the "Raise Army" button and that's it.
And Constantinople is the hardest to siege place in the whole game, how long do you have to sleep to let it be sieged down?

If you really want to hide behind terrain just have your capital land locked form all sides...

It's almost certain that we will get Republics in the future, and with that maybe some changes to ships.
1) Buy them, steal them, build them, the point isn't that medieval folks couldn't do those things. The point is that they couldn't do those things anywhere near the magnitude/frequency as it is happening now in CK3.
Go open any military history book and see how many times medieval naval landing happened, versus good old marching over land to get to their target. Naval landings were, and frankly still are FUNDAMENTALLY riskier and difficult to pull off.
Why was Calais a strategically important city in 100 year war? Because it had a port that could support all that naval embark/disembark. Fact of the matter is that no army/nation in history, even in modern times can embark and disembark wherever and whenever they please especially in hostile territory. The only reason why people keep saying this is realistic or feasible is because they like the simplified game play(which isn't bad in itself, but the current implementation isn't good).

2) Obviously if I started as a duke and became the emperor, then for the majority of my game play my capital wasn't Constantinople. And for some reason you keep assuming that I am getting my butt kicked by AI. No. Like I said I am doing well. Never once have I let my capital be sieged down for a prolonged amount of time. AI is so predictable that all I need to do is wait by my capital and ambush enemy army when they make that ridiculous naval landing with huge disadvantage penalty. Which is a terrible move for them. This is clearly not a fun way to do warfare, and why the current naval system needs to change.

3) On the issue of terrain, it is obvious the devs wanted terrain and the consequent attrition system to mean more than it did in CK2, with all the terrain specific buildings like forest fortress, etc. Sadly, precisely because of the current naval system where enemy can just bypass all that with ships, all that terrain/attrition system is simply lost potential. Another reason why the current naval system needs to change.

4)Yes I hope we get updates on naval system :)
 
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1) Buy them, steal them, build them, the point isn't that medieval folks couldn't do those things. The point is that they couldn't do those things anywhere near the magnitude/frequency as it is happening now in CK3.
Go open any military history book and see how many times medieval naval landing happened, versus good old marching over land to get to their target. Naval landings were, and frankly still are FUNDAMENTALLY riskier and difficult to pull off.
Why was Calais a strategically important city in 100 year war? Because it had a port that could support all that naval embark/disembark. Fact of the matter is that no army/nation in history, even in modern times can embark and disembark wherever and whenever they please especially in hostile territory. The only reason why people keep saying this is realistic or feasible is because they like the simplified game play(which isn't bad in itself, but the current implementation isn't good).

2) Obviously if I started as a duke and became the emperor, then for the majority of my game play my capital wasn't Constantinople. And for some reason you keep assuming that I am getting my butt kicked by AI. No. Like I said I am doing well. Never once have I let my capital be sieged down for a prolonged amount of time. AI is so predictable that all I need to do is wait by my capital and ambush enemy army when they make that ridiculous naval landing with huge disadvantage penalty. Which is a terrible move for them. This is clearly not a fun way to do warfare, and why the current naval system needs to change.

3) On the issue of terrain, it is obvious the devs wanted terrain and the consequent attrition system to mean more then it did in CK2, with all the terrain specific buildings like forest fortress, etc. Sadly, precisely because of the current naval system where enemy can just bypass all that with ships, all that terrain/attrition system is simply lost potential. Another reason why the current naval system needs to change.

4)Yes I hope we get updates on naval system :)


1) There were no "nations" or even "armies" (in the mondern sense") back then
No coastal defenses either
Which is why the Norse were so dominant and brought even big feudal kingdoms to their knees.
Big feudal armies were moved differently and ports were very important for that yes.
There is no good solution for now, a lot would need to change in the game to make things differently.
Nomads having faster armies with lots of horses; Feudal lords having a harder to use ships; Pirate ships; trade ships etc.
And there are/were people that could embark/disembark in hostile territory without issue: the vikings and lots of tribes + the USA today (mostly covert)

2) Somehow the AI rarely does that for me.
But I can agree that the AI needs a work on decision making for embarking, I can fabricate situations were they will constantly embark/disembark.
They should really evaluate cost, distance etc.

3) I mean terrain does work, if your capital is not at the coast they have to walk inland and eat attrition or siege coastal defense forts first.
As I'm playing as Karen right the mountains saved my bacon many times over since my neighbors are nasty and strong.

4) I want them to fix bugs first, so I can hunt achievements, but half of them is broken by bugs
 
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