I'm NOT on a boat!! Navy/Naval/Transport [MEGA-THREAD]

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PDX-Nicou

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We understand that sometimes topics can be heated, but we would like to remind everyone to not flame one another.
Please stay respectful and constructive, even when disagreeing.
 
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Honestly one of the most annoying things in CK2 is having to constantly raise and disband navel levies to minimize their cost. Effecetively all 3 is doing is removing that annoyance and that's a welcome change.

I could not agree more. I'm fine with them implementing navy at some point but I'd prefer the method in CK3 over the one we had in CK2. I agree with the OP this system is not ideal but it's still superior to what we had and naval skirmishes were not as big of a deal during the Middle Ages as compared to say Greek and Roman times.
 
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Farfour

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generally second to the Fatimids early on
This is where I have to disagree. The Byzantine Navy was intermittently the dominant force in the Eastern Mediterranean (including the Adriatic) and Black Seas whenever the Empire needed to project its power to secure commerce between Dalmatian city-states up until the mid 11th century. The decline of the Byzantine Navy coincided with the decline of its necessity. For centuries after the rapid expansion of the Islamic Caliphates, several attempts at invading or conquering Constantinople were thwarted or driven back by the Imperial Fleet coordinating with Thematic Navies, yet Arab raids still remained a thorn in the Empire's side until... the mid 11th century. With this, the need for the Byzantine Empire to project power abroad was marginal, the Empire grew complacent with its secure position, its themes ceased to undertake any significant campaigns, and all were looking increasingly inward. The only notable campaigns of this period (1025-1071) were in Armenia and Sicily (the Emirate, not the soon to be Norman kingdom).

The Empire became more reliant on both the Tagma and Imperial Fleet based in Constantinople under direct Imperial oversight, and the Constantinopolitan bureaucracy, increasingly at odds with the military high command, sought to weaken their influence. The neglect of the military aristocracy that had provided the Empire with such impeccable leadership on the frontier in favor of central reserve forces in the capital deprived it of effective and immediate defenses, particularly in Anatolia, combined with the integration of Armenian buffer states into the Empire and commuting military service for payment left Anatolia wide open.

These are all developments that came nearly 2 centuries after the establishment of the Fatimid state. The Fatimid Navy only came in contact with the Byzantine Navy briefly after the Fatimids expanded into Egypt and founded Cairo, and from then until around 1000 it was primarily used to defend Fatimid rule in coastal Levantine cities, to mixed results. The Byzantine Navy was beginning its medieval apogee just as the Fatimids were done with their conquest of Egypt.
never truly dominant during the CK2 period
See above.
 
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There's a conflation of detail and realism common to discussions of strategy games. The CK2 system was more intricate and involved than the CK3 system, but all that detail was completely wrong. But because it was more involved, people assume it was more realistic. You see this all the time.

This is common in all games, gamers have a tendency to conflate "more features" and "more complexity" with "better games" which just tends to lead to bloated messes (See HOI3 for a Paradox example). Sometimes less is more.

The only decision making involved with ck2 ""navies"" for me was whether or not it was worth it for me to click 3 more times to bring over my levies in the Faroes to the rest of my army. I personally don't want to see a naval system added back to the CK series unless it actually complements the core character-based part of the game.
 
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What was bad about it:

You couldn't raise just the number of ships you needed to transport an army without a lot of micromanagement. You ended up raising far more ships than were needed - but your vassals paid for it. Similarly if you had any reasonable amount of coast the fleet capacity was utterly irrelevant.

Early on if your ships could carry 1000 men, and your holding produced a stack of 1001 men you couldn't just leave that extra one man behind, and thus couldn't move the army. If you had boats for 1000, and 3000 men in 5 stacks of 600 you needed 5 trips to move the army, not 3.

You could have huge fleets sat in port, and didn't pay a penny in maintenance when they were apparently and anachronistically dedicated transport vessels. The transports also "just appear" rather than having to be paid for, since they're created out of thin air by shipyards.

The fleet was largely built by your vassals, and paid for by your vassals, which could leave you with a problem in the rare instance they failed to build shipyards.


None of that is exactly good.

There also *are* differences between land and sea provinces - you can't battle at sea; it takes time (a month) to go from land to sea; it costs money to go from land to sea.
Those are literally all things that could have been improved in a sequel. And that’s what I’m saying why not just improve the system in a new game instead of canceling it and thereby removing content that already was in the previous game.
 
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To paraphrase what some smart person may have said at some point: It ain't finished when there's nothing left that should be added, but when there's nothing left that should be removed.
 
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nyah

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Imperator had almost the exact same issues EU: Rome had. Treating it as a unique case no one saw coming ignores the fact that Paradox have been struggling to make the era interesting and used EU:R and IR mainly as engine tests for EU4 and CK3, respectively.

Also, you are ignoring a vast number of arguments that have absolutely nothing to do with Paradox at all.

I'm still pissed that Sengoku was used in the same way for CK2, because I really like that game and now it won't even run on win10.
 
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To paraphrase what some smart person may have said at some point: It ain't finished when there's nothing left that should be added, but when there's nothing left that should be removed.
The most famous phrasing of the sentiment is of course by aviator, author, and French national hero Antoine de Saint-Exupéry (1900-44 (presumed)): "It seems that perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove."

(as translated to English by Lewis Galantière)
 
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Would make more sense to tie naval fleets to either making them (dedicating manpower, resources and time to prepare an invasion basically) or contracting merchants or in the case of rebels... pirates to gain safe passage. That gives a reason to support cooperating with merchant republics.
 
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Would make more sense to tie naval fleets to either making them (dedicating manpower, resources and time to prepare an invasion basically) or contracting merchants or in the case of rebels... pirates to gain safe passage. That gives a reason to support cooperating with merchant republics.

To keep it simple, it might be interesting to allow troops to embark from anywhere, but make cost and time to embark depend on relations to the local top-tier ruler. That way, sending troops from northern Germany to the Holy Land would require either shipping them around France and Spain, sending them across the continent on land, paying for an expensive passage from Italy, or getting on good terms with someone down there who is willing to ship them more readily.
 
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The thing is that the local top-tier ruler rarely had a say, since the fleets were owned by merchants. Hence why it makes sense in CK2 that you get more ships from city vassals- it was a partial abstraction of pressing merchant ships into service. Had they added something like the ship levies being unraised providing a bonus to taxation (or raising them provide a penalty) to simulate those ships normally engaging in trade, it would have been more historical. Similarly, I need to check how city holdings are handled, but if you can have even non-playable merchant characters, then tying the fees to relations to them would make sense.
 
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The stream today was *reasonably* logical, with the muslims deciding to go directly for the capital (and a potential knockout) rather than work up the coast.
It wasn't terrible.
Did they avoid attrition that way? If yes it is a cool trick. But this just makes having naval battle more important: Travel by sea to avoid attrition -> naval battles more important.
 
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Did they avoid attrition that way? If yes it is a cool trick. But this just makes having naval battle more important: Travel by sea to avoid attrition -> naval battles more important.
I *think* they avoided attrition - but more importantly it looked like it let them catch the Galician army whilst it was disorganised.
It also meant they didn't end up having to fight a siege or two on the way.
 
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Now i'm even more convinced that if something THIS insignificant, literal third row mechanic, is the biggest problem with the game, big enough to have it's own megathread, i smell a success for the game.
Of course i'm sure more and more serious problems will be revealed after release, but still. Come on.
 
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