Am I the only one that doesnt get why people want nato counters so much? I dont get what so great about them. Not complaining just wondering
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Im just wondering
- Thread starter Kuling
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Since I've been playing wargames for the last 34 years with NATO counters, I'm used to that and I prefer games that offer these instead of animated figurines.
So it's more or less a matter of preferences and habits.
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And to be honest, I'm not sure I get what having ships and airplanes moving around the map add to the game itself. They add to create an "atmosphere", a feeling of an ongoing war, but seeing them moving around is not adding to the tactical or strategic sides of the game.
Maybe it tells you that there is an aerial or naval activity in a zone ? Probably what they do in fact. An animated alert.
Maybe it tells you that there is an aerial or naval activity in a zone ? Probably what they do in fact. An animated alert.
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They convey a large amount of information quickly and simply and because they are black on white can be read at a passing glance.
They take time to learn but there is a reason NATO use them and there is a reason we want to use them. Many people here have played so many wargames using NATO counters, including HoI3, that its much easier to stay with NATO counters than learn another system.
Also they add flavour.
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You're right, I dont, because they gave us NATO counters.You don't need to learn another system though. Horses for courses
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This is just a friendly reminder that many NATO counters threads have been killed due to people violating forum rules. Let's all remain friendly so I don't have to do it yet again.
I used to play HoI1 with sprites and loved them. HoI2 was too slow on my machine back then so i deleted all sprites and switched to counters. It was strange in the first place but i'll never go back to sprites. They just confuse me now and turn attention from the real game.
Counters add more to the strategic atmosphere IMO.
But it's just all a matter of taste anyway. As long as both options are possible i'm fine. I just do not play with sprites anymore. Never.
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I prefer counters over 3d models because:
- i hate huge unrealistic figures of soldiers
- i am afraid of the visual mess i will get with 3d models (like in hoi3 where during big military operations models becoming big mess)
- with NATO counters i am getting schematic understandable information and i see frontline more clearly.
And i am ready to pay for NATO counters DLC (hoi3 style counters) and for air interception.
PS I am afraid about HOI4 ... i think it's getting too abstracted in many places.
- i hate huge unrealistic figures of soldiers
- i am afraid of the visual mess i will get with 3d models (like in hoi3 where during big military operations models becoming big mess)
- with NATO counters i am getting schematic understandable information and i see frontline more clearly.
And i am ready to pay for NATO counters DLC (hoi3 style counters) and for air interception.
PS I am afraid about HOI4 ... i think it's getting too abstracted in many places.
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Because with NATO counters, we can see in each province what do each army, not just one. We can see the soldiers who go in another province or stay, and how many.
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Counters are used in real life army simulations and operations,so I believe that they give a better strategy game feeling. They are also easy to understand and to extract useful information out of them. Personally I think that a map full of 3d units is very messy and not aesthetically pleasing.
I don't think we're getting the NATO counters though,just the paradox counters.
I don't think we're getting the NATO counters though,just the paradox counters.
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Q1: There have already been how many dozen threads on the topic?
Q2: There have already been how many dozen threads on the topic locked? (Answer: see answer to question 1)
Fortunately, we have recently been informed that we can disable the animated figures, and see just the counters, or else enable the figures to see what the units are without knowing either the NATO symbols (such as X for infantry) or the Paradox icons (such as helmet for infantry).
The beauty of the counters in HOI3 was that they showed movement arrows individually for each division, so even a huge stack allowed you to see at a glance how many divisions were moving in each direction. Corners were tagged with other status info like Attack Delay or out of supply, so you could again pick out some basic info from a stack, without obscuring most of the map. HOI4, as long as it can show what's moving where, should have the capability to display even more info, but whether it's as clear as in HOI3 won't be entirely answered until we have the game up on our screens. To me, it looks like a jumbled mess, but that's just personal opinion about a second-hand look.
Counters work for those who know the symbols, and give an quick indication of whether that's a regular infantry unit, Mountain troops, Marines, or low quality Militia. Animated figures allow those who don't know the symbols to see at a glance that those are foot troops, but I'm not sure how easily the various specialty units will be to distinguish.
When I saw a single UK division in HOI3 trashing Italian regulars one after another in North Africa, a glance was sufficient to tell me that they were Royal Marines. Situation self-evident. A marching figure may not have informed me, unless the uniform differences are conveyed in some manner that makes it apparent for every country, or the included counter shows it somehow. A player unfamiliar with the symbols would have gotten no better information from the counters, though, so it's not a clear-cut answer. Making it optional should work for everyone.
I'm still disappointed that we can't make our ships and aircraft do pushups.
Q2: There have already been how many dozen threads on the topic locked? (Answer: see answer to question 1)
Fortunately, we have recently been informed that we can disable the animated figures, and see just the counters, or else enable the figures to see what the units are without knowing either the NATO symbols (such as X for infantry) or the Paradox icons (such as helmet for infantry).
The beauty of the counters in HOI3 was that they showed movement arrows individually for each division, so even a huge stack allowed you to see at a glance how many divisions were moving in each direction. Corners were tagged with other status info like Attack Delay or out of supply, so you could again pick out some basic info from a stack, without obscuring most of the map. HOI4, as long as it can show what's moving where, should have the capability to display even more info, but whether it's as clear as in HOI3 won't be entirely answered until we have the game up on our screens. To me, it looks like a jumbled mess, but that's just personal opinion about a second-hand look.
Counters work for those who know the symbols, and give an quick indication of whether that's a regular infantry unit, Mountain troops, Marines, or low quality Militia. Animated figures allow those who don't know the symbols to see at a glance that those are foot troops, but I'm not sure how easily the various specialty units will be to distinguish.
When I saw a single UK division in HOI3 trashing Italian regulars one after another in North Africa, a glance was sufficient to tell me that they were Royal Marines. Situation self-evident. A marching figure may not have informed me, unless the uniform differences are conveyed in some manner that makes it apparent for every country, or the included counter shows it somehow. A player unfamiliar with the symbols would have gotten no better information from the counters, though, so it's not a clear-cut answer. Making it optional should work for everyone.
I'm still disappointed that we can't make our ships and aircraft do pushups.
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