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Ktarn

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Re: WiF vs 3R

Originally posted by homer

The original WiF is good.. but when you add on all the expansions to include the Days of Decison (my favorite).. it is incredible! Just wish the mapboard didnt take up half my house for 1 year to finish a game :)

We are drifting of the subject here, but anyways.
WiF FE (Final Edition) with DOD III is simply the best strategic WWII game.
My only problem is that when you add all the expansion sets, Asia Aflame, Afrifa Aflame, Mech in Flames, Ships in Flames, Planes in Flames, Carrier planes in Flames (!), Leaders in Flames, America in Flames, Patton in Flames and Politics in Flames, it just gets too big. 4000 counters, 6 A1 maps, about 200 pages of rules. I prefer to short out some of the expansions, increases playability, shorter play time.

Thats something to remeber for HoI as well, dont add too much. Too many unit types, and too much micromanagement can actually be a problem.
 

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I agree about not trying to have the game at a micro-management level, but if one wishs, I think it shold be an option.

PLues, a computer saves one from goring throgh CRTs, and bookeeping etc...so, I say make the game deep. Look how DEEP Combat Mission is, but one can still just sit down and move units around.

-Jason
 

jacob-Lundgren

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ya a major reason for all the many nations losing to germany as they did was that they deployed most if not all their forces on the border and when the german broke through the other nation had no real chance to win. even with fairly equal armies when your forces are surrounded and cut off from any supplies you kinda get into trouble, especialy since the germans basicaly owned the skies during the earlier part of the war.(except for the battle of britain) you need reserves to fight any modern war (modern being roughly ww1 onward)
 

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Originally posted by John Poole


No question Napoleon made many critical errors and no question the Germans had some of the most brilliant military minds in the business on their side. No question their officers and soldiers were excellently trained (at least in the beginning) and much of their equiptment second to none. But their conquest of Europe was skin deep and they lost....as did Napoleon. The Germans lost the war and that is a fact. They lost as completely as any country can lose. They lost because of their diplomatic incompetence and their incomparable ability to inspire hatred in other people.

Nobody doubts the German's military powers...it was those other necessary parts of statecraft that did them in.

I wouldn't begin to argue concerning their ability to *hold* what they conquered. These are the people who thought that cooking folks in ovens was a good way to build community spirit, after all.

What I'm annoyed with is the damned revisionists who keep yammering on concerning German military accomplishments as if every single one of them was a goddamned accident. No doubt if their country had pulled off WW2 luck would have nothing to do with it - it'd all be 'brilliant military planning'

Jesus H. These overly-nationalistic yahoos need to get a bloody grip. You don't see me nattering on and on about how the U.S. would've won the war of 1812 if only good luck hadn't favored the British 20 or 30 friggin' times....

Max
 

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Originally posted by Juba
Utterly conquered them? The last time I checked up on my WW2 history there were things like the Free French, the Polish divisions in France and the UK, Soviet Poland, and Vichy France.

Yeah, right. This argument is pathetic and you know it. France and Poland were conquered. Period. End of story until the Americans and Russians showed up. Any other interpretation is wishful thinking.

You must be forgetting that big old continent south of Europe and that even bigger continent to the east of Europe. Are you saying that the Brits did nothing there?

This is called a 'straw man' argument. What that means is that when you know you're up the creek without a paddle and looking to all the world like a fool, you try to divert everyone's attention to some other argument that you might be able to win - but has nothing to do with the original point.

If you took high school debate lo those many years ago (or hell, maybe last year for you) then you know that the intelligent person ignores the straw man.

No they didn't conquer Europe they controlled large parts of it temporarily.

They conquered it. How long they held it is of no concern. Conquest is conquest. This should be a big 'duuuu-uuuh!' for all the MTV-heads out there.

Poland might have been due to German skill as my knowledge of that conflict isn't that great but the fall of France certainly was as was the USSR performance during Barbarossa were due to Allied incompetence rather than German superiority.

This is just another way of saying the Germans made fewer mistakes than the allies. And as any wet-behind-the-ears cadet knows, "he who makes the fewest mistakes wins the battle."

The person who consistently makes the fewest mistakes is called a 'military genius'. Whether or not you personally have a woody for putting German accomplishments down doesn't diminish this fact.

(I don't know what you have against the Germans but your prejudice is showing, in spades.)

Yes it was better but being better doesn't always secure victory and if the Allies had corrected some of the easily corrected ones like deployment the German army wouldn't have stormed through France.

Yada yada yada. "If country A had just done this they wouldn't have lost this battle, or this war". Whatever. You're talking "what ifs" - and these belong in fantasy novels. They have nothing whatsoever to do with 'what was'.

And what was is that the French were trashed, completely and utterly, routed and humiliated in a manner never before seen in Europe. Don't like it? Too bad - that's the way it went down.

But if you're French and that really bothers you, all you have to do is remember that just over a century before that Napoleon did the same thing to everyone else, and with more primitive technology. That should salve your wounded pride.

Max
 

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Originally posted by Gen. Suvorov
This thread turned into a mini flame war and I'm closing it.

Edit: Sorry guys, I see that the problem with maxpublic was resolved and that you're having a nice discussion so I'm re-opening the thread.

Excuse me? The 'problem' with maxpublic is that he doesn't agree with some of the points being made, especially concerning the French ability to defend themselves against the Germans. A dissenting opinion does not a problem make, unless you don't happen to like the opinion.

Max
 

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Look, what it all boils down to is this: either you can believe that given events as they stood, and the superiority of the German army, the German officer, and German troops, that a French victory would've been nearly impossible to pull off; or you can decide that all the German victories were due to a chain of good fortune about as probable as the existence of the world of Gor.

And you can either believe that without heavy American assistance there would've been no allied victory in Europe, or that the Americans weren't really needed - the Russians and the Brits would've saved the day anyway.

The first gives you an historical game which, 9 times out of 10, results in a stunning French defeat on the Western front and no real hope of winning the war without American assistance. The second gives you some pseudo-nationalistic European wet dream which, while it might be an enjoyable fantasy game, couldn't possibly bill itself as 'historical' without subjecting itself to claims of false advertising.

If the game is revisionist I won't buy it - that simple. I don't want a revisionist fantasy - I want a game based on actual history and not the delusions of amateur armchair historians who're still smarting that their nation had a can of whoop-ass opened on them in WW2.

Max
 

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Originally posted by maxpublic


Excuse me? The 'problem' with maxpublic is that he doesn't agree with some of the points being made, especially concerning the French ability to defend themselves against the Germans. A dissenting opinion does not a problem make, unless you don't happen to like the opinion.

Max

The "problem" is that you have offended and insulted people, thats why you got a pink card.
 

Juba

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Originally posted by maxpublic
And what was is that the French were trashed, completely and utterly, routed and humiliated in a manner never before seen in Europe. Don't like it? Too bad - that's the way it went down.

But if you're French and that really bothers you, all you have to do is remember that just over a century before that Napoleon did the same thing to everyone else, and with more primitive technology. That should salve your wounded pride.

Max

Since the rest of the stuff you posted is just you repeating yourself over and over again saying the same things I'll just respond to this part.

Yes the French lost but IF they had done somethings DIFFERENTLY like their deployment the outcome would have been very DIFFERENT.

What bothers me is that you seem to think the game should force the player to make the same mistakes which were made historically instead of being able to change the course of the war by correcting some of the mistakes or making new ones instead of being forced to surrender in 1940 if you are playing France no matter what.
 

Juba

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Originally posted by maxpublic
If the game is revisionist I won't buy it - that simple. I don't want a revisionist fantasy - I want a game based on actual history and not the delusions of amateur armchair historians who're still smarting that their nation had a can of whoop-ass opened on them in WW2.

Max

If the game doesn't allow for revision I will not buy it. I'm not spending 50€ to watch a slideshow on WW2. I want to change the way it happened instead of clicking the mouse to see what happened in 1940.
 

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Originally posted by maxpublic


If the game is revisionist I won't buy it - that simple. I don't want a revisionist fantasy - I want a game based on actual history and not the delusions of amateur armchair historians who're still smarting that their nation had a can of whoop-ass opened on them in WW2.

Max

Yes thats the problem, having a flawed apreciation of history will inevatablly result in those of little intelect being disapointed by the game.

Hanny
 

Hartmann

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Originally posted by Juba


If the game doesn't allow for revision I will not buy it. I'm not spending 50? to watch a slideshow on WW2. I want to change the way it happened instead of clicking the mouse to see what happened in 1940.

I'm really sure that (at least here!) there is actually no problem for both of you. I do not have more info than what is contained in the several threads here, but what I gleaned from them is this:

If you start in 1936 as the French, you will have enough time to change French doctrine etc. and have a more than decent chance at turning the tables around when the war comes. If you play *another country*, though, AI France will be liable to act more or less historically in most cases, as will all other AI countries, making sure that what we get in a typical "hands off game" will oscillate around the historical red line (it's the player who is supposed to change history, not the computer).
Still, even the AI may choose to go down ahistorical paths, depending on the preconditions for events and how the dice will fall. Luckily, these things are not hardcoded because it would make the game predictable and boring.

Furthermore, there will be a scenario editor which will allow you to change whatever you feel the scenario designers failed to represent properly.

I think, though, that the wise quote from Napoleon in the EU2 intro was always taken very serious by Paradox. I do not believe that there is one and only one "true" history. Still, if we intend to study history seriously and for the love of it, then the most important thing is that - while we do it - we are able to "forget" who we are, where we come from, whom we love and whom we hate. Otherwise, we will inevitably succumb to the strong lure of the syrens telling us the stories of the days of old in the way which best soothes our wounds ...

Hartmann
 
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Originally posted by maxpublic


And what was is that the French were trashed, completely and utterly, routed and humiliated in a manner never before seen in Europe. Don't like it? Too bad - that's the way it went down.

Max

Not quite, over half of the German cassualties in the Battle Of France were AFTER the Brittish left through Dunkirk, so the French fought hard, really hard against a superior enemy. The French High Command on the other hand, lost communications with the front lines, and they thought that the situation was worst than it really was. When the armisticie was ordered, most soldiers were still fighting. The French HQ made huge mistakes, like ordering troops from the Maginot line to fall back when they were actually holding the Germans, which had to make craters in the ground with the heavy mortars so the Pioneers could use them as cover to aproach the forts and blow them up. The French commanders failed to counter attack (out flank) the stretched German lines.
The Battles of France was by not means an easy one, but in the mediocre mind of the masses a relatively short battle must be an easy battle. :rolleyes:
 

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Originally posted by maxpublic


Yeah, right. This argument is pathetic and you know it. France and Poland were conquered. Period. End of story until the Americans and Russians showed up. Any other interpretation is wishful thinking.



This is called a 'straw man' argument. What that means is that when you know you're up the creek without a paddle and looking to all the world like a fool, you try to divert everyone's attention to some other argument that you might be able to win - but has nothing to do with the original point.

If you took high school debate lo those many years ago (or hell, maybe last year for you) then you know that the intelligent person ignores the straw man.



They conquered it. How long they held it is of no concern. Conquest is conquest. This should be a big 'duuuu-uuuh!' for all the MTV-heads out there.



This is just another way of saying the Germans made fewer mistakes than the allies. And as any wet-behind-the-ears cadet knows, "he who makes the fewest mistakes wins the battle."

The person who consistently makes the fewest mistakes is called a 'military genius'. Whether or not you personally have a woody for putting German accomplishments down doesn't diminish this fact.

(I don't know what you have against the Germans but your prejudice is showing, in spades.)



Yada yada yada. "If country A had just done this they wouldn't have lost this battle, or this war". Whatever. You're talking "what ifs" - and these belong in fantasy novels. They have nothing whatsoever to do with 'what was'.

And what was is that the French were trashed, completely and utterly, routed and humiliated in a manner never before seen in Europe. Don't like it? Too bad - that's the way it went down.

But if you're French and that really bothers you, all you have to do is remember that just over a century before that Napoleon did the same thing to everyone else, and with more primitive technology. That should salve your wounded pride.

Max


I think your interpretations are rather poor. I know France and Poland were conquered but producing numbers, historical opinions and qoutes is completely useless against your hard-headedness. You dont convince you preach that we are fools for trying to understand what really happened. I dont believe the French were "trashed, completely and utterly routed" blah blah as completely and as easily as you claim. I am actually trying to understand what really happened in that battle and am not caught up in needing to portray them as fools or geniuses. I dont know nor do I care why you insist on degrading them. I am not French and this is not about national pride its about an interest in history. I am not interested in the slightest in glorifying the Germans or the French nor do I have some intense desire to portray war as some kind of football match where we crown the winners and make fun of the losers. That kind of attitude makes me ill to the extreme. The Germans (or more specifically the leadership of the Nazi Party) are responsible for the deaths of millions and the complete annihilation of their nation...that is a difficult and sad legacy to have in my opinion and Napoleon's is very similar....it seems odd to take pride in that.
 

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Lots of interesting opinions floated around here, so here's mine on a various number of things discussed..

On the German "military superiority" discussion.

In my opinion, the one recurring theme that I almost always find in repetition when studying battles, operations and campaigns is that of all levels of the German military machine's ability to improvise. You can talk about equipment, tactics, strategy, leadership, morale, whatever all you want - the fact is after the fall of France (in some cases sooner) every country in the world copied German tactics and organization to some degree. Improvisation by all levels of the military and home front are what set Germany most notably apart. Most other "reasons" one could come up with can be parried (as well as we can in hindsight).

Primarily this is concerned with those in leadership roles of course, from NCOs to Field Marshals... but you see evidence in all aspects of the German War Machine... from the homefront economy to the battlefields.

If you take a look at the smaller picture (not looking at operations and campaigns on the operational/strategic level) and take a more tactical approach to battles and confrontations, you find a recurring theme - pretty much anytime the Germans met someone on remotely equal terms they won. I know there's going to be a flood of disagreement there and I'll welcome any disagreement to discuss - but consider that there very few battles and encounters where one can consider the sides remotely "equal". Some notable exceptions would be certain smaller and often unheard of battles in the Battle of the Bulge, but by that time looking at quantity alone is meaningless. Aside from a core of experienced and adequately trained troops (who incidentally were mostly concentrated into the armored and mechanized formations anyways) the bulk were Volksgrenadier divisions thrown into battle with wholly inadequate training and equipment.

If you look specifically at it from a tactical point of view - especially in the East, Germany prevented a plethora of situations that would have been catastrophic to most any other army. Indeed most other armies, situations reversed where the Germans had tactical or strategic superiority consistently lost to the Germans... usally in far more dramatic ways.

On the idea of the "pathetic" French Army

The French air arm never really recovered (or from another perspective didn't move forward fast enough) from the nationalization of that industry in the 30s. It turned back the clock on everything from pilot training to forming coherent squads. Anybody who thinks the latter might be meaningless only needs to take a peek at the IAF, considered by many to be pound for pound superior to the USAF.

The army... well it's true they definately did not have the apparent nationalism that was advent in pretty much every nation/kingdom at the outbreak of the first world war, using that as a primary reason for the French defeat ignores quite a lot of logic to the contrary.

For starters, I think it's safe to say it's a rarity to find men who truly do fight for idealistic reasons. How many Americans for example who went overseas truly believed and desired to fight for "democracy" against tyranny? The one constant that almost every soldier who has written memoirs as a combatant in a war talks about is the comradeship and bonds that develop between men in war. I don't think nationalism or morale (or lack there of) even significantly played a role in the battle for France. Many historians have talked about it... about the lack of the French will to fight... but almost every single book or memoir I've seen attribute this significantly to the downfall of France has been from an aloof perspective - books that covered the strategic side of the battles... or memoirs of a General who ran the war from a room behind closed doors. I truly don't believe your average man has the conviction to die for his "country" no matter how much nationalistic sentiment he might have. What inspires men in war more than anything else has always been their comrades.

Most armies to this day (and for a long time previous) took advantage of this by recruiting entire units from the same area/city. This way they all had something in common and it would be easier for them to bond - the sooner they would bond the more loyal to each other they would become... and the less likely they would act like a complete and utter coward in the face of adversity.

I think most people recognize the single most significant reason France lost was dislocation and preemption. Concepts practiced by every mobile army today and by every Allied nation after seeing the effects in France. What we saw in France was the equivelant of what we saw in North Africa, only on a far, far, far greater scale - yet nobody gives the Brits flak for "fighting poorly". It's easy for anybody who isn't French to talk about how the French caved in so quickly... the Brits? Sure, it's easy for them to hold out and fight on the beaches, fight in the countryside, fight in the cities -- because even getting a single German soldier across the Channel given the circumstances would have been extremely difficult. The french situation when they surrendered was hopeless as far as France proper was concerned. Without their industrial base and geographic position the only thing the French had to offer was manpower (which incidentally they did in the form of the Free french). The razing of a historic city like Paris would have done little. Even if the French wanted to continue to fight when the armistice was signed, there wasn't much left around to fight with. What coherent and possibly effective formations the French had left were holed up in the maginot line - abandoning which would have meant slaughter as all their heavy weaponry was static. Air support? Non existent. Armored support? Well they had a measure of "armored support" inside the bunkers but had they abandoned them to fight it would have just been a repeat of "Plan 17" in the opening days of WW1. As it turns out the last French troops on the mainland to surrender were troops in the Maginot line. The germans attacked it from the rear (and they were basicaly defenseless from that direction).

So the reality is - talk about how great German/French tanks were, talk about how bad you think French morale was, talk about how superior you think tactics and leadership on either side was... really in the end as far as the battle of France was concerned there would have to have been utter dominance by one side in all those areas to have prevented a bunch of German infantry men in lorries from performing their dislocation maneuver with nearly the same success. The only real chance the French had (barring a deployment that had the benefit of hindsight) was to stop the Germans at Sedan where they would have a river to defend. But that wasn't going to happen with the sheer weight of numbers the Germans pushed through to Sedan - that they were largely the best and most mobile elements of the German armed forces only exasperated an already hopeless French situation.

There are only two things that any soldier, no matter how hardened or how fanatical always runs away from:

1) Flamethrower.
2) No supplies.

No soldiers, not even the most hardened Japanese troops of the time, stood up to either. There are many cases of Japanese troops living off the land and or living with extremely limited supplies. But there are many documented cases of Japanese blockaded in their caves who only surrendered (or blew themselves up... which was the usual of the two) when they could no longer bear the hunger.

On the issue of France in the context of HOI:

I think France being able to survive is fine. I think it's pretty straightfoward:

On one hand you have single player issues - some say if France is not scripted to fall (in some way or another) the game is unplayable for the Axis. I disagree.

First we'll deal with single player.

If the player chooses Germany I see no real problem. France can be scripted to deploy ignorantly (or a scenario created for 1940) if historical accuracy is to be maintained. Because in all honestly, if the deployment stays the same, unless the HOI engine does a really poor job of the war on an operational combat level, the French will lose every time (assuming the player executes the campaign as the germans actually did).

If the Germans take an alternate route, for example the original German plan which was more or less a straight thrust through Belgium along the coast, they will be very hard pressed to win - which is historically accurate. That does not doom Germany outright either. As a human player playing Germany.. are you really going to DoW on the USA like Hitler did? Are you really going to invade the USSR and make them an enemy (which was really in question... Stalin was nobodies friend and I have my doubts he would have done anything but sit and watch if Germany fought France/England for many years).

Germany vs France in broad terms is probably a pretty good/fair fight. Germany was industrially stronger... had a larger population and at a definite advantage when war broke out. England does not have a continental sized army... they never did at any given time throughout the war (with good reason).... assuming that is accurately portrayed Britain will never be able to (alone) force the Germans into doing anything. So given that Germany is probably the stronger of the two countries (Germany and France) throwing England on the side of the French doesn't necessarily doom the Germans. Germany fought Britain (who had a continental-sized army), France and Russia at once and managed fine in the first Great War - hell they almost won until the USA joined in (not to say the USA saved the Entente - their timing may have though - it's fair to say if Ethiopia had a few divisions training in France during the German Peace offensives in 1918 one could say Ethiopia saved the Entente).

If you want a more open ended scenario (which is actually how I think things should be considering even one jar early on would totally ruin the entire sequence of events in WW2 - this works for EU because EU's scope is so much grander than one war with typically no more than one event for any famous war) then there is no issue of survivability for the Germans. The USSR is not firmly in the Allied camp at the outbreak of war and only a moronic German player (or AI for that matter) would invade the USSR in 41 while still engaged in the West.

Who says the USSR would not even join with the Axis? I think if that happened we would have a war end in stalemate. I don't care how many ships, planes, guns and men a US entry into the war could contribute, it doesn't mean anything if they are invading an Atlantic wall manned by a couple million troops rather than a piddly panzer reserve and 500,000 troops of mostly questionale quality without any air support at all as happened in the war. Now we start opening up possibliites like early US entry into the war.. early USSR entry into the war on the side of Axis. Japan preparing and entering the war earlier. Hell one of the first things I want to try in a scenario like this is joining with Japan and crushing the Soviet Union right after the great purges (assuming the AI takes the event if its one) - which IMO Hitler should have done in 1939 (crushing the USSR that is).

This is what makes a game like EU fun. The fact that you can start at a historically accurate point and rewrite history. Or try your hand at history in the same conditions (scenario editor).

And the great thing about a scenario editor is that we can make scenarios for every single year of the war.. so you can start at any time.. make many many "what if" scenarios... this is what made games like TOAW great.. a robust scenario editor meant those of us who followed major battles could recreate the "what-ifs" and simulate them.

If the player chooses France then they probably want some (even if slim) chance to survive. Not a problem. Players have hindsight. That pretty much makes France survivable.. of course I hold the opinion that even with German superiority in organization, equipment, whatever you can think of, the French armed forces weren't so piss poor that if the bulk of their mobile troops weren't cut off immediately France would have lasted much more than 6 weeks. In fact I doubt Germany would have had any sort of decisive victory in the West before the year ended.

Now to multiplayer:

The one thing I think has to be considered is that the USSR, even in the specific history as we read it today, could not necessarily be considered firmly in the Allied camp until the USSR was invaded by Germany. I'm assuming a human German player isn't going to be so stupid to declare on the USSR if they're embroiled in a slugging match in the West.


And finally, this all goes on the assumption that the combat system in HOI is much more robust than in EU. I only just started reading about it today so I can't really say... all this theorizing on game balance could be thrown completely out the window depending on how they simulate battles and such :).
 
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unmerged(9732)

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Originally posted by maxpublic
Look, what it all boils down to is this: either you can believe that given events as they stood, and the superiority of the German army, the German officer, and German troops, that a French victory would've been nearly impossible to pull off; or you can decide that all the German victories were due to a chain of good fortune about as probable as the existence of the world of Gor.

I agree that a French victory was unlikely.. but a German victory was also unlikely as well if not for the deployment. I can't logically see it any other way. Assuming the pretext of Germany attacking France.. they're liminted in options really.

3 major axis of advance...

Into the maginot line.
Through the coast.
Through the ardennes.

The first two only hope to win a single battle... costly ones at that. And without a swift and early French capitulation the dynamic changes entirely. The RAF would not have "bailed out" and fled the continent so quickly. It's unlikely that even considering the hesitant french command and the superior german tactics and organization.. breaking through such a dense concentreation of Allied forces (as was lying in wait behind a river) would not have taken a _long_ time... a breakthrough against the Maginot line would have taken a _long_ time as well. Even the slow working French command would have shored up their lines in time. The ardennes gave the germans the ability to put over half their army (the best part at that) well beyond the ALlied frontline before they even begun to react. That is the legacy of the German campaign against the Low Countries and France.

And you can either believe that without heavy American assistance there would've been no allied victory in Europe, or that the Americans weren't really needed - the Russians and the Brits would've saved the day anyway.

Well considering the Russians regained the initative never again to be held by the Germans in the eastern front in 1942 (stalingrad) without any substantial US support... without any support really the Allied bombing campaign which in itself was of questionable value was very low intensity at this point... I'd say that no America did not mean the end of the Allies. Again, the great thing about a game like this is to find out (in the context of the game of course).


The first gives you an historical game which, 9 times out of 10, results in a stunning French defeat on the Western front and no real hope of winning the war without American assistance. The second gives you some pseudo-nationalistic European wet dream which, while it might be an enjoyable fantasy game, couldn't possibly bill itself as 'historical' without subjecting itself to claims of false advertising.

For the game to be historically accurate it would have to be able to wipe the minds of the player so that they didn't have the benefit of hindsight. Surprise played such a big part in so many battles to say this doesn't exactly seem justified.


If the game is revisionist I won't buy it - that simple. I don't want a revisionist fantasy - I want a game based on actual history and not the delusions of amateur armchair historians who're still smarting that their nation had a can of whoop-ass opened on them in WW2.
Max

Er - why bother playing a game then? You do realize that the sequence of events as they unfolded in WW2 were highly dependant on previous events? Japan would not have attempted a military solution of their "Co-Prosperity Sphere" if France was still alive and kicking.. Britain wasn't fighting for her life, etc.. and if France is guaranteed to fall.. why bother playing at all? That would mean no matter what the German player did (eg run their entire army into the maginot line) the french would fall. Historical accuracy only goes so far... else it ceases to become a game... well at least.. a game with a point.. might as wel watch a documentary.
 

unmerged(9145)

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Originally posted by John Poole


I think your interpretations are rather poor. I know France and Poland were conquered but producing numbers, historical opinions and qoutes is completely useless against your hard-headedness. You dont convince you preach that we are fools for trying to understand what really happened. [/i]


Never said any such thing. What I said, and have maintained, is that any game which allows the French to defeat the Germans in '39 without an exceptional run of luck is not an historical game. No doubt this is why Paradox is including a '36 fantasy scenario - so that you can reform the French army and actually win come '39.

What I have also said, and continue to maintain, is that any WW2 game that allows the Allies to win without U.S. aid is also ahistorical, no matter what the start date, unless the Allies get very, very lucky.

[/i]I dont believe the French were "trashed, completely and utterly routed" blah blah as completely and as easily as you claim. [/i]

Six weeks. That pretty much meets my definition of 'trashed'.

I am actually trying to understand what really happened in that battle and am not caught up in needing to portray them as fools or geniuses.

The French weren't fools, nor have I ever said. If you think otherwise, please provide the relevant quote.

The French army was, however, highly incompetent and completely outclassed, operating using WW1 doctrine on a WW2 battlefield. This was mostly due to ennui and the French political situation, which often resulted in the political appointment of 'military' officers who knew little, if anything, about actual warfare. And unlike the French of 1805 the army of 1939 was highly resistant to any notion of change.

I dont know nor do I care why you insist on degrading them.

Stating an obvious truth - that the French army was substandard with respect to its officer corps and its doctrine - is not 'degrading them'. It's simply how things were. The same was true of Russia (almost entirely due to Stalin) when it entered the war, as well as of the Poles.


I am not French and this is not about national pride its about an interest in history. I am not interested in the slightest in glorifying the Germans or the French nor do I have some intense desire to portray war as some kind of football match where we crown the winners and make fun of the losers. That kind of attitude makes me ill to the extreme.


I've never done this - you've concocted this idea entirely on your own. Do remember, however, that we're talking about a game, which simulates warfare as a form of entertainment.

The Germans were the best of the best in '39. Better than the French, the Russians, the Brits, and certainly even my own people, the Americans. They remained the best well into the war. Recognizing this as a fact isn't 'glorification'.


The Germans (or more specifically the leadership of the Nazi Party) are responsible for the deaths of millions and the complete annihilation of their nation...that is a difficult and sad legacy to have in my opinion and Napoleon's is very similar....it seems odd to take pride in that.


The death camps have nothing to do with German military operations during the war. Nothing whatsoever. They aren't even a consideration my mind, nor will I advocate crippling the Germans in the game because the Nazis practiced genocide in real life. That kind of hogwash doesn't belong in the game at all, nor in any realistic appraisal of German military achievements.

I can appreciate the brilliance of German campaigns in World War 2 without confusing this issue with Nazi concentration camps. The two things have nothing to do with each other. The game should not be engineered to appease individuals who still, after more than sixty years and two generations, harbor some desire to 'punish' the Germans for what their grandfathers and great-grandfathers did.

As for Napoleon, I dare you to find a single instance where the French set up concentration camps anywhere from 1799-1815 and tried to eliminate entire races of people. Napoleon was a conqueror and one of the most brilliant military minds in human history; Hitler, on the other hand, was a sick bastard who relied on the military skills of others to further German aims. Napoleon does not belong in the company of this psychopath, although perhaps Stalin does. The Serbian leadership of the last decade certainly falls into that category too - sick Nazi wannabes.

But not Napoleon, and not the French of the Napoleonic era.

For scenarios starting in '36 I can see the Allies stopping the Germans cold. The player has the benefit of hindsight and 3 years of change to incorporate before '39 rolls around. For scenarios starting in '39 the question shouldn't be whether or not the Germans are successful, but *how* successful. At least until the Americans and Russians get involved.

Max
 
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