I'm glad it's not a US game

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Usually, the French would see each person as an individual and judge them on how they act or what they do. Of course, there would be exceptions, but unlike in the US, people are rarely judge by "stereotypes", but more on a case to case basis. If you've been in France and were given a hard time by the French (it happens....), you should wonder what YOU did to have the French react this way to you. By the way, you can even ask them what you did wrong, and more times than not, they will tell you frankly. You might get your feelings hurt, but you'll know. It's better than blissfull ignorance and just believing that all French hate Americans.

 

[Ape]

France and such

Euro and Yankee bashing is a sport enjoyed in the off topic forum, not here, please lets keep this within the gameframe so the General don´t move this thread there.

Originally posted by Mattias

Right on target! While beaten because of outdated tactical doctrine the french could have kept fighting like the Norwegian - their government fled to England and they let England use their substantial merchant fleet and thus really helped fighting famine on the British isles. The fairly modern french fleet and the north african colonys would have been an valuable asset - bye bye Italian Libya!!! They didn't, possibly because of some good political reasons i dont know much about but it it certainly would have effected the war if they had choosen another path.

I am rereading Churchills book "Their finest hour" at the moment, and it is Churchill´s opinion that it might had been the british fault that France surrenderd. The British proposal about a union was poorly timed, and he thinks it might had been what tipped the scales to force Reynaud to resign, thus paving the way for Pétain.
Had Reynaud still been in power Churchill found it likely that the remnants of the French army togheter with the powerful French navy would have evacuted continental France for their north african colonies and kept on fighting from there.
Of course he is biased, but he was there, which we wern´t.

 

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Originally posted by olivier
Usually, the French would see each person as an individual and judge them on how they act or what they do. Of course, there would be exceptions, but unlike in the US, people are rarely judge by "stereotypes", but more on a case to case basis. If you've been in France and were given a hard time by the French (it happens....), you should wonder what YOU did to have the French react this way to you. By the way, you can even ask them what you did wrong, and more times than not, they will tell you frankly. You might get your feelings hurt, but you'll know. It's better than blissfull ignorance and just believing that all French hate Americans.

As compared to England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Holland, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, and Sweden? Sure, it must be the American's fault if he got the short end in Paris, but not in any of these other nations, nor in southern France.

The sudden changes in prices were flat-out because restaurants and shops thought they had a chance to screw the tourist. The comment were clearly made with the idea that the American didn't know French and would never know what was being said.

But hey, that's just one person's take on it. And since it's off-topic that's the last comment I'll make on the subject.

Except for the line "but unlike in the U.S. people are rarely judged by stereotypes...". Nearly fell off my seat laughing at that one. "Stereotype". "Hypocrisy". Words that you might want to ask Webster about.

Max

 

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I am glad HoI is not a US-made game either, but nonetheless HoI is being made by a bourgeois company, which will mold this WW2 game into it's own image, regardless of fact. The Spanish Civil War will be done poorly I am sure, as the bourgeoisie nations of the world stood by and did nothing during it, so why speak much of it now - such would glorify Left Radicalism!

 

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Hey, newsflash. Anybody remember the Civ II WWII scenario? It's impossible to beat the French in that game. That was by a U.S. company.The Spanish, Germans and English (Talk about a weird combo) were all fighting the French one time, and France bashed their heads off. I was playing as Spain, so needless to say, I was a little suprised. I realize it's not a WWII game per se, but it did portray the French as powerful and the Americans as worthless.

 

[John Poole]

Originally posted by maxpublic


As compared to England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Holland, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, and Sweden? Sure, it must be the American's fault if he got the short end in Paris, but not in any of these other nations, nor in southern France.

The sudden changes in prices were flat-out because restaurants and shops thought they had a chance to screw the tourist. The comment were clearly made with the idea that the American didn't know French and would never know what was being said.

But hey, that's just one person's take on it. And since it's off-topic that's the last comment I'll make on the subject.

Except for the line "but unlike in the U.S. people are rarely judged by stereotypes...". Nearly fell off my seat laughing at that one. "Stereotype". "Hypocrisy". Words that you might want to ask Webster about.

Max

Oh well....did you even read my post? Sure Americans cant read French but they sure as hell can read the prices...I mean the French use the same number system we do. If the box says 15 Euros....then pay 15 Euros. How wonderful you get to run around saying that all the French people in Paris are out to screw tourists...I guess that is why millions of people go there every year because getting screwed is so much fun. Please excuse me while I resist the urge to slap you.

 

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Originally posted by Weidt
I am glad HoI is not a US-made game either, but nonetheless HoI is being made by a bourgeois company, which will mold this WW2 game into it's own image, regardless of fact. The Spanish Civil War will be done poorly I am sure, as the bourgeoisie nations of the world stood by and did nothing during it, so why speak much of it now - such would glorify Left Radicalism!

lol.

 

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Originally posted by John Poole


Oh well....did you even read my post? Sure Americans cant read French but they sure as hell can read the prices...I mean the French use the same number system we do. If the box says 15 Euros....then pay 15 Euros. How wonderful you get to run around saying that all the French people in Paris are out to screw tourists...I guess that is why millions of people go there every year because getting screwed is so much fun. Please excuse me while I resist the urge to slap you.

Agreed. I read somewhere that 28 million tourists visit Paris every year and last year 61 million people visited France last year...

 

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Originally posted by John Poole


Oh well....did you even read my post? Sure Americans cant read French but they sure as hell can read the prices...I mean the French use the same number system we do. If the box says 15 Euros....then pay 15 Euros. How wonderful you get to run around saying that all the French people in Paris are out to screw tourists...I guess that is why millions of people go there every year because getting screwed is so much fun. Please excuse me while I resist the urge to slap you.

This was pre-Euro. Opinions are like assholes - everyone's stinks but yours. What *is* that smell?

But I doubt people visit Paris for the chance to socialize with Parisians. It may instead have something to do with the galleries and monuments - geez, kinda the same reason most tourists hit Washington, D.C. while in the U.S....

Ya think?

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the French should get bitch-slapped from the word 'go' if HOI is going to be at all historical. Given the outdated, outmoded, incompetent French command and military doctrine there's really no way the outcome could've been different.

France was great in 1805 - it was *not* great in 1939. I hope that the game reflects this, rather than trying to hand a sop to French egos in order to increase European sales. The outcome should be an incredibly embarrassing defeat worthy of French jokes for decades to come, just as it was then.

Max

 

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Originally posted by maxpublic


Opinions are like assholes - everyone's stinks but yours. What *is* that smell?

Mine stinks too.

 

[Juba]

Originally posted by maxpublic
Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the French should get bitch-slapped from the word 'go' if HOI is going to be at all historical. Given the outdated, outmoded, incompetent French command and military doctrine there's really no way the outcome could've been different.

No.

The French army was deployed in the wrong place as the French army had anticipated a different kind of war just like every other nation in the world other than Germany. This resulted in great confusion that not even the BEF or any army in the world could stop. Every army that met the German army properly for the first time was completely thrashed. Poland, Norway, France & Low Countries & UK, USSR, and the US were beaten in their first contact with the Germans. Just because the French got caught at the worst moment it doesn't mean that France should get "bitch-slapped" especially in 1936-9.

 

[John Poole]

Originally posted by maxpublic


This was pre-Euro. Opinions are like assholes - everyone's stinks but yours. What *is* that smell?

But I doubt people visit Paris for the chance to socialize with Parisians. It may instead have something to do with the galleries and monuments - geez, kinda the same reason most tourists hit Washington, D.C. while in the U.S....

Ya think?

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that the French should get bitch-slapped from the word 'go' if HOI is going to be at all historical. Given the outdated, outmoded, incompetent French command and military doctrine there's really no way the outcome could've been different.

France was great in 1805 - it was *not* great in 1939. I hope that the game reflects this, rather than trying to hand a sop to French egos in order to increase European sales. The outcome should be an incredibly embarrassing defeat worthy of French jokes for decades to come, just as it was then.

Max

Well ok then if it says 200 francs then pay 200 francs and yes I went because I have friends in Paris and I did socialize with the Parisians....but you know if they were terrible hosts people wouldn't go. But anyway there were alot of things France could have done to not get bitch-slapped. If I am France and I form an entente with Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania and the USSR and we all attack Germany at once will I be bitch-slapped? Maybe If I am the French player and I invade Germany before they have a chance to re-arm should I be bitch slapped? What if I attack while Germany is fighting in Poland? What if I counter the attack in the Ardennes? I am not interested in stroking anybodies ego nor am I interested in French jokes. I am interested in a historic simulation. Go tell your French jokes someplace else.

 

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Originally posted by Weidt
I am glad HoI is not a US-made game either, but nonetheless HoI is being made by a bourgeois company, which will mold this WW2 game into it's own image, regardless of fact. The Spanish Civil War will be done poorly I am sure, as the bourgeoisie nations of the world stood by and did nothing during it, so why speak much of it now - such would glorify Left Radicalism!

IIRC, the Popular Front was to a large degree neither left nor radicalistic. Most marxists don't like to admit that - such would glorify bourgeois Liberalism!

 

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Originally posted by Tambourmajor


IIRC, the Popular Front was to a large degree neither left nor radicalistic. Most marxists don't like to admit that - such would glorify bourgeois Liberalism!

Sure, the Popular Front was very much Liberalism, though it was "communist" controlled - ie, under the thumb of Stalin who hated radicalism. It crushed the Left Radicals, like the CNT-FAI who faught like hell to hold Madrid. The POUM was outlawed and members executed for being "the Fifth Column", which was absurd.

It started good, but in 1937 it went downhill.

 

[AlanC9]

Originally posted by Weidt
I am glad HoI is not a US-made game either, but nonetheless HoI is being made by a bourgeois company......

Are there any software companies that aren't bourgeois?

 

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Originally posted by Idiotboy
Well they didn´t just lie down and die either.

They were outmatched and had no shot at defeating Germany.

 

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Out-matched? Perhaps, but for sure, out witted and out willed. There were French units that were more than a match for the Germans.

There were however a few main reasons for the defeat:

1. Wrong Place. "Sure we will swing like a gate into the low countries and leave the axis of the advance to a few scattered divisions, because there are trees and hills there."

What if they had not done this? What if the bulk of that Force had been behind the Somme?

2. Doctrine. "Tanks should be scattered and used to support the infantry, oh and lets just sell that new batch of anti-tank tank guns instead of refitting our units."
-Yes this happened. and yes the one man turret slowed the rate of fire and command.
And lets not forget that nice little cement line that was built.

3. Political Will. France took such a beating in WWI plus, there the political infighting was awful. There was a real fear of a "red" take over. Many a French leader thought that a few areas would be traded and everyone would go home. Why die? What did WWI prove to them?

Of course the above are general statements, but it is true that towards the end, the German command was seeing ever stiffening resistance on the drive to Paris, and was also aware that things could have been disastrous.

This part of the war has always fascinated me, and I have read a few books on it.

MY MAIN POINT: (sorry it took so long)
I think the main point is that OK, the French may lose BUT, it could have been A LOT more costly to the Germans and taken a lot longer if even a few command decisions had been different once the fighting started. This could have resulted in a much more cautious Hitler, and a different course in the war. I hope the game allows for this.

If you guys are interested, Check out “Blitzkrieg” by Len Deighton. Great reading of the fall of France. “The German Generals Talk,” by B.H. Liddel Hart, is also very insightful on this. Its one of the best insights on some of the very real weakness the German Army faced in the West.
Also there is another book, I forget the author, called 1940 the West (I think).
Last, check out “Battles lost and Won,” by Baldwin, its about the Attack on Poland, but it gives a great example the Blitz tactics and one can see the differences between the Polish and French, and the possibilities.

 

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Anyone remember Clash of Steel? This was a hell of a game. Made by the dean of American wargamers, Gary Grigsby. One of the neat aspects was that on any of the difficulty levels, it was quite possible to prevent French defeat using a superior knowledge of WWII history. But of course in 1939 you started in the appropriate defensive positions, so it was a race to catch the Nazi army groups before they got to Paris (when they get Paris, the French get divvied up into Vichy and Free- a tough break).

The coolest thing was if you could get Poland to survive into late 1940. It was tough even on the easiest level of difficulty, but it dramatically changed the game dynamic (and also guaranteed Russia carving a bigger chunk out of Poland).

 

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Originally posted by John Poole


But anyway there were alot of things France could have done to not get bitch-slapped. If I am France and I form an entente with Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania and the USSR and we all attack Germany at once will I be bitch-slapped? Maybe If I am the French player and I invade Germany before they have a chance to re-arm should I be bitch slapped? What if I attack while Germany is fighting in Poland? What if I counter the attack in the Ardennes? I am not interested in stroking anybodies ego nor am I interested in French jokes. I am interested in a historic simulation. Go tell your French jokes someplace else.

And the fact is is that none of this is historical. The game is at least supposed to *start* historically, and if that's the case the French don't have a prayer of even slowing down the Germans, much less stopping them.

The French army was a lost cause in 1939. Not because of training or equipment, but because the officer corps was utterly incompetent, the military doctrine of the French armed forces was based on WW1, and the French simply had no will to put up a determined fight. Even the Poles, whose armed forces were arguably even worse than the French, put up a much tougher fight, losing three times the number of soldiers the French did (and comparably a much larger portion of their armed forces) before folding.

What it boils down to is that in 1939 the French didn't have a prayer of taking on the Germans and winning. They were, indeed, bitch-slapped, and there was little chance of anything else happening.

But remember - the English were also whipped and ran like dogs with their tails between their legs. The English performance in France was almost as embarrassing as the French performance in France. Hell, the little guys - e.g., Belgium - were far more effective per soldier than any of the Great Powers in 1939. It's been estimated that if the Belgium army had been as large as the French army they would've roundly defeated the Germans and crushed the initial invasion attempt.

With the exception of Germany, which boostrapped itself up from the Treaty of Versailles and accomplished incredible feats of military genius right up until 1943, none of the European Great Powers has anything to brag about.

Reforming the French army might be included as part of a fantasy scenario, but not as part of a historical scenario. Improving national morale so that the French army just doesn't up and surrender en masse is also pure fantasy. As I said before, this is *not* the France that Napoleon knew, the France that conquered nearly all of Europe. *That* France was long gone in 1939, just as while Italy may survive today it sure as hell isn't the Rome of the past.

In any event, the French did do one thing better than any other nation during the war: they surrendered with such lightning speed, and in numbers never before seen by a modern army - a feat that has yet to be equalled!

Max

 

[King]

Originally posted by maxpublic


And the fact is is that none of this is historical. The game is at least supposed to *start* historically, and if that's the case the French don't have a prayer of even slowing down the Germans, much less stopping them.

The French army was a lost cause in 1939. Not because of training or equipment, but because the officer corps was utterly incompetent, the military doctrine of the French armed forces was based on WW1, and the French simply had no will to put up a determined fight. Even the Poles, whose armed forces were arguably even worse than the French, put up a much tougher fight, losing three times the number of soldiers the French did (and comparably a much larger portion of their armed forces) before folding.

What it boils down to is that in 1939 the French didn't have a prayer of taking on the Germans and winning. They were, indeed, bitch-slapped, and there was little chance of anything else happening.

But remember - the English were also whipped and ran like dogs with their tails between their legs. The English performance in France was almost as embarrassing as the French performance in France. Hell, the little guys - e.g., Belgium - were far more effective per soldier than any of the Great Powers in 1939. It's been estimated that if the Belgium army had been as large as the French army they would've roundly defeated the Germans and crushed the initial invasion attempt.

With the exception of Germany, which boostrapped itself up from the Treaty of Versailles and accomplished incredible feats of military genius right up until 1943, none of the European Great Powers has anything to brag about.

Reforming the French army might be included as part of a fantasy scenario, but not as part of a historical scenario. Improving national morale so that the French army just doesn't up and surrender en masse is also pure fantasy. As I said before, this is *not* the France that Napoleon knew, the France that conquered nearly all of Europe. *That* France was long gone in 1939, just as while Italy may survive today it sure as hell isn't the Rome of the past.

In any event, the French did do one thing better than any other nation during the war: they surrendered with such lightning speed, and in numbers never before seen by a modern army - a feat that has yet to be equalled!

Max

Point 1: The game can start in 1936
Point 2: A better deployment by the French might of helped. For example having some reserves
Point 3: Where do you get your information on the fighting quaities of the Beligium Arrmy? I have never seen anything about that
Point 4: If you have read Panzer Leader then you will know it was Guderian's selective disobedence that saved the German plan. On 2 occasions it was nearly halted before cutting of the Allied armies
Point 5: The Germans got the arse kicked in the winter of 1941 and lost an entier army in the winter of 1942. In fact for all of those out there who admirer the German military machine it wasn't very good at winning wars. Having not won one against a real opponent since 1871.