I'm coming around to the idea of province-based railroads

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So for the longest time I've been happy with rails being modelled on a state level in HoI4, mostly because, as someone pointed out by taking a WWII rail map of Europe and super-imposing it over a HoI4 province map, it seems most every HoI4 province has a rail connection in real-life. Also, it works well with the industrial and resource systems, in that you can increase the resource output of a state by building more rails there.

Latelly I've been coming around to the idea of province-based rails, though, and I wish to explain why. I've also got a compromise I think would work well that I wish to suggest. The main reason I would like province-level infrastructure, or at least infrastructure damage, is that the current system doesn't work too well when you and your enemy "share" a state. Let's say your enemy has broken through your frontline and is advancing down a one-province wide corridor. You may want to bomb the railroads to deprive them of supplies, but if they only control the provinces they're advancing down, bombing makes far less sense as you'll damage the remaining provinces still under your control. State-wide bombing also makes it impossible to surgically hit bottlenecks in the enemy's supply lines.

There are also a few places in the game where provinces don't have railroads in real life, Norway being a prime example. In HoI3, this was simulated by most of the provinces having very low infrastructure, and some mountain provinces even being impassable until rails were built there. The provinces with rails, such as the Bergensbanen railroad between Bergen and Oslo, became far more important.

So, on to my compromise:
Hold on to state-level infrastructure, but allow targetted bombing of occupied provinces (a checkbox could allow you to tell your air wings to bomb only occupied/enemy provinces, or do a kind of "scorched earth" bombing of the whole state), and then implement a "Rail Damage" level for affected provinces. So you have state infrastructure, with every province in the state having the same level of railroads... until the infrastructure in a province is damaged.

So a state could have level four infrastructure, but if you bomb the provinces occupied by the enemy, they are treated as level 3 or below, depending on damage. You could perhaps have small icons on the map to denote provinces with damaged infrastructure, if only while viewing the Infrastructure screen. States with infrastructure damage are still repaired as before, with the whole state's railroads (or at least the ones you control) being treated as one item to repair in the construction menu.

This would allow the game to retain the current state-level infrastructure, but would allow province-level infra damage, which would be better for gameplay, and also mean you would no longer be bombing friendly rails, or repairing those held by your enemy.
 
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Riekopo

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One of the worst things about the current simplistic system is how damage is applied to the entire State's infrastructure instead of actually where the fighting is. Really annoying and dumb.
 
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It’d be great if offensives would have to concentrate on major railroads in order to stay in sufficient supply, would make fighting in China and the Soviet Union a lot more interesting as troop buildups in those areas would create some pretty epic engagements, might even help simulate interesting stalemates at certain points in the campaign as well.
 
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Riekopo

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I really think to do it properly they will need to add a lot more provinces like Imperator has. Because there are major railroads and then minor ones. And then there are roads (which were either not there or bad in the USSR).
 
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I really think to do it properly they will need to add a lot more provinces like Imperator has. Because there are major railroads and then minor ones. And then there are roads (which were either not there or bad in the USSR).

Railroad routes could be built and upgraded between cities. A lot of provinces were made urban cities recently.

Track gauges could be different (as they were in other countries) so they would have to be "refitted" just like ships are for modules so that they could be used.
 
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Yanotoshi

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I didn't play HOI 3 to be honest, so I can't compare.
But the single indicator 'infrastructure' for everything like resources, movement speed, building speed and logistical supply is quite mighty and suddenly broken when a province is shared.
Adding extra railroads just on top of the current system wouldn't work.
 
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Secret Master

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One of the worst things about the current simplistic system is how damage is applied to the entire State's infrastructure instead of actually where the fighting is. Really annoying and dumb.

I don't call it dumb, because I understand why it's abstracted this way, but it does create odd situations in the game.

Well planned defenses tend to make use of supply region and state "borders" to ensure that the attacker screws themselves every time. I'm thinking of Vitebsk as a recurring example in MP. If the Soviets choose to execute a river line defense from Riga to Kiev, then the German player just accepts that the Vitebsk corridor will be constantly at 0 effective infrastructure until they break through or the Soviets dislodge the Germans. They have to move divisions through terrible supply and dead infrastructure to even reinforce the line. Meanwhile, the Soviets will have reserve divisions just sitting outside the supply region, which ends up being only two or three provinces away, sitting in perfect supply. It gives a big advantage to the Soviets, and even if Germany tries to repair the infrastructure, it dies rather quickly and they are stuck.

It also means that VPs are important, not as rail hubs, but merely for the free supply they generate. Having VPs generate supply creates the illusion of rail hubs (your supply gets better when you take on), but it's really just free supply. Still, there are times in MP where VPs are targets for attack due to supply considerations. Hell, I can think of a three month offensive in an MP game that centered around the Soviets retaking Tarnopol just because it would permanently ruin German supply in the area. (The joke is that offensive ended up becoming a massive operation that resulted in the seizing of Bucharest and the Romanian oil, because the Germans defended Tarnopol well and didn't take the feint towards Bucharest seriously until it was too late.)

I have largely been against rail lines in HOI4 in the past, but I have slightly changed my thinking. I think rail lines make sense in a complete overhaul of the system, but only if that overhaul includes the requirement for producing trains and trucks for supply purposes (and the ability to bomb those things). I don't just want a railway system without these other things.
 
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safe-keeper

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I'd like both buildable trains as "land convoys", and a system for Rail Capacity -- only so much supply, and so many strategically redeployed divisions, can move on the rails at the same time. Heck, I wouldn't even mind provinces having a certain soft cap on how many divisions, or perhaps battalions and companies, could move (normally, not using strategic redeployment) through them at the same time, traffic jams being a very real thing during WWII.
 
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Railroads are the main reason why I always return to a game of the Strategic Command series after a session of HoI.

It's so rewarding to cut off enemy supplies by taking railroad junctions.

Think of Fall Blau and the impact railroads had on the campaign.
One reason for splitting the Heeresgruppe was that the railroad from Donetzk to Stalingrad limited the supply capacity and thus it was a reasonable choice to send the other half to Maikop, coincidentally along the railroad from Donetzk.

Germany at that stage was railroad-bound cause it lacked fuel for supply trucks which would have made them more flexible.
 
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I like the railroad ideas you guys are describing. The more the map can simulate the actual conditions on the ground, the less there is a need of artificial enticements like victory points and overly simple terrain.

If the developers can do it well, we might all learn why certain leaders in WW2 did some of the things they did. Right now, it can be a lot of VPs, meme encirclements, and map painting. Don't get me wrong, I am having fun, but ohh! the potential this game has with improvements like these.
 
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strategic movement with railways could function along similar lines to sea movement. "moving this division by rail would take X trains, you have Y available".

if there's no railway, between A and B, then units can't be strategically moved between them.

Units would still be able to advance tactically between the two, by whatever means.
 
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I didn't play HOI 3 to be honest, so I can't compare.
But the single indicator 'infrastructure' for everything like resources, movement speed, building speed and logistical supply is quite mighty and suddenly broken when a province is shared.
Adding extra railroads just on top of the current system wouldn't work.
Adding them on top of the current system would be bad.
But if all infrastructure is relegated from the state Level to provinces, it would work.
 

seattle

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Put this in the suggestion forum.

Reminds me of Pulp Fiction:
- Who's Red?
- Red's dead...

The "suggestions forum" is a graveyard that not even the devs read.
 
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Riekopo

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Have high hopes for a Logistics update. But I really think to do it properly would require adding a lot more provinces. Which should be possible considering how many provinces the Imperator map has. The Imperator map is a real work of art.
 

Louella

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A couple more thoughts:

Divisional weight could be used as a soft limit on divisional width. 40-width armour divisions should be difficult/slow to move by rail, due to limitations on maximum practical train length & weight. Infantry divisions can be moved far more quickly.

Bridges ! Bridges over major rivers (i.e. the Rhine), would become more significant strategically.
 
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