I'm a genius you guys (Let's talk Naval)

[AnimeAtheist]

So I think I came up with the next best idea for implementing naval stuff into the game. I know devs don't read this stuff, but I don't care. An effort needs to be made. Now before I begin let's make things clear, why do so many people want naval battles? Is it because they're cool? Well, yeah I guess, but that isn't the main reason. Maybe you don't realize it, so ask yourself, when was the last time you NEEDED your entire navy? When? In the 4 years you've been playing when has your 96 ship navy been the key factor in a military campaign? It hasn't has it? See people want naval battles not because they want naval battles per say, but more so, we want naval power. The devs tried helping out by giving us raiding mechanics at sea, but this only helps pagans, how do you think that makes Spain feel hm? Which brings us to our next obstacle: but but naval battles are not historically accurate. You're right, on a whole large naval battles were not historical, so then why did realms build so many boats sea campaigns? Because naval power was historically accurate. And while large naval battles were not historical, small coastal skirmishes were very historical. The only places where large sea encounters happened really were in places where two very large navies met, which was pretty much exclusively from mediterranean republics. So how do we fit all of this into a nice neat mechanic that does all of this for us? That is the problem. And I think I have an idea for it.

First we have to be able to represent sea power in a way that's mostly not about fighting.

1. Ocean region control

Whenever two powers meet for battle, he who controls the sea controls who moves through the sea. So by using naval forces to manipulate movement through an ocean territory we grant navies a non violent way to exert a military control. So here is what I propose.

1.a, Movement through an ocean territory shall be increased by the presence of enemy ships, a value which can be negated by the presence of friendly ships.

So as a formula: I Friendly ships - Enemy ships I + original movement time = new movement time
That first part is the absolute value of the difference in case you were confused.

Okay, big deal, why should I care about this change. Well, if you're invading me and I have 70 ships and you have 30 and the original travel time was 4 days, the new total is now 44 days. Okay, again, big whoop, why should I care. Well, in case you were unaware being at sea is counted as out of supply range and after 28 days, you run out of supply, so you've just spend another 16 days at sea without supply. Not to mention the number of days it took you to get there already. So you're landing of foreign territory after a month attrition of no supply, that's bad, that's very bad. You can also use this method to just follow a traveling naval force and starve out any troops they are carrying so long as you have a larger navy. And why stop there, ocean control should affect movement across straights.

1.b. Movement over a straight shall be increased by the presence of enemy ships and negated as in 1a, but with a twist. This increase shall be multiplicative.

So as a formula: I Friendly ships - Enemy ships I * original movement time across straight = new movement time.

I hope you can see where I'm going with this, but let's spell it out. Going across straights takes more time than you think, but along with a multiplicative factor that can make it take damn near forever, ie impossible. So a base movement time of 10 days with 40 enemy ships = 400 days to cross. I can do a lot of damage in 400 days, so cross the channel bitch, I dare ya.

But what would this idea be without naval battles? Which brings me to a change I wanted to make for a long time.

2. You must load your men onto a ships at the harbor (not while they're in the freakin' ocean). So he who controls the harbor controls who gets off at that province.

And to win a harbor back you must fight on the seas...of the harbor. Hey, I got the battles in there be happy. So anyway how would this work? Well as I see it any naval battle calculates itself like a siege battle would. One center flank, skirmish phase only. Each ship comes with 100 light infantry sailors (they're more pseudo troops as you can't land them they can only defend) and transport troops are allowed to fight as well, but they directly subtract from you sailor total. So let's say I had 50 ships carrying 3k horses. Why all horses, because science, now pay attention. If I were to then battle with this force I would have 3k horses and 2k LI sailors. So now you're probably all like, WAIT WHAT? WHY? Transporting troops was not risk free, if the enemy could catch you out on their turf, there goes your army. Most campaigns secured landing beaches before moving their transports in and that's what I'm encouraging here.

And that about sums up my idea. Now with this, you would be able to lock down your opponent and give yourself a super speedway with a superior naval force. Ta'da,! [insert pretty fireworks and sparkles here]. I know, I'm a genius.

 

[caboozze]

I really like the idea of slowing down the enemy boats, but i have a big concern: how will the AI use it?
I mean, the AI already have a lot of trouble with attrition, i don't think it could handle something complex as:
1/ guess your forces repartition in the war fog and guess from where your army will set sail
2/ send enough navies to the good place to effectively slow you down without spending too much

In the hands of a player it would be extremly usefull, but players are already OP compared to the AI

A feature I would like to see is renting boats to allies (cheaper than mercenary boats) during a war, like Venice did during the crusades

 

[AnimeAtheist]

I can't believe I missed that! You're right about the AI and it probably being too complex for it. To be honest I don't think the AI has to be as dumb as it is, the devs just don't make it any stronger to give the illusion of human ineptitude for the game. I've always been an advocate of AI reform for this game, but as it stands yeah this might be a little hard to implement before that. Also, I like the idea with the boat renting. The way I figured it, with more naval power they would put a lot more weight on the AI creating and teaming up with merchant republics, which is another amazing problem this could solve. And that relationship could serve as the basic idea of the principle maybe.

 

[TheDungen]

This suggestion is nearly unreadable, get to the point. Your suggestion don't seem bad but all these rehtorical question led to me giving up on reading it.

 

[AnimeAtheist]

I like to prose

 

[TheDungen]

A wise man once said "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"

 

[AnimeAtheist]

I can explain it simply I just prefer to put in prose too. The numbered lines and the last paragraph pretty much sum up the whole idea.

 

[TheDungen]

Well the former version is better (400 days is more than a year that's not realistic), but add arttrition to both navies involved and to any transported troops based on the diffrence in numbers, the diffrence in number of carried troops (the main naval way of combat back then was boarding) and the proximity to friendly territory.

 

[DeathBurst]

To be honest I don't think the AI has to be as dumb as it is, the devs just don't make it any stronger to give the illusion of human ineptitude for the game.

You, dear sir, sorely underestimate the complexity of a good AI

Just try to improve some of the more ridiculous points in a mod, and when you have managed to do that, come back here and show it to us. You'll make a lot of people happy, including PDox studio.

 

[AnimeAtheist]

Well the former version is better (400 days is more than a year that's not realistic), but add arttrition to both navies involved and to any transported troops based on the diffrence in numbers, the diffrence in number of carried troops (the main naval way of combat back then was boarding) and the proximity to friendly territory.

The idea was to be able to control traffic over a straight. It's a ridiculous number because it should dissuade anyone from actually considering it. I don't understand your second point, please explain.

 

[AnimeAtheist]

You, dear sir, sorely underestimate the complexity of a good AI

Just try to improve some of the more ridiculous points in a mod, and when you have managed to do that, come back here and show it to us. You'll make a lot of people happy, including PDox studio.

I actually don't think is quite it. I think another reason the AI is just underpar is because it is written very simply. It's written simply to save on computing power, something CK2 players are always crying for more. They probably settled with that approach partly because they foresaw lag being a problem, which is understandable. So honestly I would have preferred if they had used the newly smoothed game and computing room to put in better more complex AI rather than the steppes. But the steppes are nice too.

 

[TheDungen]

The idea was to be able to control traffic over a straight. It's a ridiculous number because it should dissuade anyone from actually considering it. I don't understand your second point, please explain.

Oh I missed the strait thing I thought you meant fleet movements. Well that's nice too but I'd really prefer there not to be any straits after a naval rework.

 

[AnimeAtheist]

Oh I missed the strait thing I thought you meant fleet movements. Well that's nice too but I'd really prefer there not to be any straits after a naval rework.

I totally get that. And in the process of coming up with that I looked into that. The only reason I'm hesitant to do that is because of the early game. No one has any naval power. That's why Gotland got itself a straight. Without straights no one could get to the Isle of Mann, no one could get to Scandinavia from Europe except through Finland. One thing I thought of to fix this would be giving coastal counties 1 extra galley per developed province added to their base count. So with tribal, you hold a few counties and from county multiplies you may start with like 7 galleys total. This would also eliminate the need for the totally intrusive event for the Norse that just suddenly adds a full bar to every Norse ruler's Shieldbuilding tech randomly around 800 ad. Overall, this isn't a bad idea really, I just kind of like straights. But we can also use this idea to just eliminate most straights and keep the short distance ones like in Denmark and Sicily, that way we can get rid of the stupid straights that make no sense. Like that new one that links Wales to Ireland. Seriously devs, what the hell. However, if we went with this I would prefer to get rid of the ability to control straight movement with Naval power, or at least seriously weaken it.

 

[TheDungen]

I totally get that. And in the process of coming up with that I looked into that. The only reason I'm hesitant to do that is because of the early game. No one has any naval power. That's why Gotland got itself a straight. Without straights no one could get to the Isle of Mann, no one could get to Scandinavia from Europe except through Finland. One thing I thought of to fix this would be giving coastal counties 1 extra galley per developed province added to their base count. So with tribal, you hold a few counties and from county multiplies you may start with like 7 galleys total. This would also eliminate the need for the totally intrusive event for the Norse that just suddenly adds a full bar to every Norse ruler's Shieldbuilding tech randomly around 800 ad. Overall, this isn't a bad idea really, I just kind of like straights. But we can also use this idea to just eliminate most straights and keep the short distance ones like in Denmark and Sicily, that way we can get rid of the stupid straights that make no sense. Like that new one that links Wales to Ireland. Seriously devs, what the hell. However, if we went with this I would prefer to get rid of the ability to control straight movement with Naval power, or at least seriously weaken it.

Well they should have boats at the start of the game unless you think that these peoples swam to scandinavia and the brittish isles?

 

[AnimeAtheist]

Well they should have boats at the start of the game unless you think that these peoples swam to scandinavia and the brittish isles?

Yeah that always did annoy me that suddenly everyone's naval power disappeared with the rise of Charlamagne. So this would also fix that.

 

[raven63]

Here are two cents from a fellow lunatic/visionary who thought hard about new naval mechanics which will probably never be implemented in any game before the solar system collapses:

There are two issues with the way navies are implemented in ck2 (and in other strategy games):

1) The AI cannot use the mechanics for shit

2) They are utterly unrealistic. How can a medieval navy change the destination of its voyage in the middle of the open sea? Navies didn't do that back then, unless it was the admiral's call due to an emergency of some sort, in other words without any knowledge as to the strategic situation on land. Currently you can launch a naval invasion, and just before landing you spot a nice opportunity to catch one of their armies off guard, and switch you landing location 180 degrees.

Also, suppose ck2 implements naval combat, how can two medieval navies battle in mid sea? They didn't do that back then. Literally all naval battles prior to like the 16th century took place next to coasts, in straits, or in bays. It just is not possible to do battle in the middle of the sea with the kind of vessels they had back then, if nothing else it is too damn hard to even locate your enemy!

Later when I have time I will post my own idea which addresses both problems, and I will do it here in your thread (starting a new thread seems meaningless).

 

[AnimeAtheist]

how can two medieval navies battle in mid sea? They didn't do that back then. Literally all naval battles prior to like the 16th century took place next to coasts, in straits, or in bays. It just is not possible to do battle in the middle of the sea with the kind of vessels they had back then, if nothing else it is too damn hard to even locate your enemy!
.

I did my very best to make sure actual naval conflicts didn't occur in the sea to retain historicity. But hold on, you spoke something there I had missed. Naval Conflict in straights? You may be onto something my friend

Our previous gentlemen here inquired about reduced straights and one issue I had was that at the end of it we may have to cut back on naval influence over what straights remained. That in part though was a concern about the ability to reduce movement over half a mile of shallow water (essentially). But actual conflicts there would be quick and still give navies a creative and different way to influence straight movement. Actual combat in straights right now would be troublesome as there are so many, but a reduced count, that could put some real cool niche on them for this idea.

Right now I feel like a child smashing two Power Ranger toys together while shouting noises (and it feels amazing). You guys are the best Power Rangers ever!

 

[DeathBurst]

I actually don't think is quite it. I think another reason the AI is just underpar is because it is written very simply. It's written simply to save on computing power, something CK2 players are always crying for more. They probably settled with that approach partly because they foresaw lag being a problem, which is understandable. So honestly I would have preferred if they had used the newly smoothed game and computing room to put in better more complex AI rather than the steppes. But the steppes are nice too.

Trust me (or go read a few wikipedia pages about Artificial Intelligence), it isn't easy. So, sure, the AI in a video game isn't state-of-the-art research-grade technology and it could be improved, but in a game like CK2, it's harder than it seems, due to the huge number of factors at play. Us humans can use instinct and habits to sort what information is relevant to the current situation/objective, but the AI has to have a general method to appraise *all* data in *every* situation.

 

[AnimeAtheist]

Trust me (or go read a few wikipedia pages about Artificial Intelligence), it isn't easy. So, sure, the AI in a video game isn't state-of-the-art research-grade technology and it could be improved, but in a game like CK2, it's harder than it seems, due to the huge number of factors at play. Us humans can use instinct and habits to sort what information is relevant to the current situation/objective, but the AI has to have a general method to appraise *all* data in *every* situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong but a simple check/weight system would work for this game, no? Ai runs a list to determine what could be considered, then uses that list to decide what should be considered and then weights the rest for an "improve situation" function should an immediate move failed to be found. I know the AI already does this to a degree with personalities determined by traits, though it's very redundant and simple. I would think that Diplomacy and Military would be the two broad catagories, with weights on domestic and neighboring issues. The problem is this system while it would work great would probably require A LOT of processing power considering the number characters and factors there are. So to my point, one thing that is holding the AI back right now could be lack of extra processing power. I may not know a lot about programming ai, but I'm smart enough to get by as an amateur for the sake of discussion. But you are correct, this is a very complex issue, so if one of the devs could speak to the matter on this thread, it would be appreciated. (yeah, I know, I might as well pray to a f***ing rock here with that request)

 

[raven63]

Alright here it is:

First of all we need to distinguish the two kinds of major naval military operations:

1) Naval combat operations: includes major naval battles, naval skirmishes, and blockades.

2) Naval invasions: this is where men, weapons, horses, and supplies are hauled over a sea to form an army at the other end.

My suggestion is for the 2nd type, which is the one implemented in CK2 at the moment. Currently the way to do it is raise your levy ships, raise your troops, make the two meet in a coastal province, load the troops, send the boats somewhere adjacent to your landing target, unload the troops, wait for it to cool down and serve.

Problem: the AI cannot wrap its head around this simple algorithm. There seem to be a million way for it to go wrong. (check my thread in the bugs report, where a large Abbasid army was parked for years right next to its fleet without embarking, until attrition killed it and the abbasids lost the war). It is this difficulty with the AI that prevents us from having good old fashioned crusades, with armies sailing to the Holy land.

I believe this problem is actually much deeper than what appears at first sight. In fact I'm not aware of any grand/TB strategy game that has a naval AI which is not mediocre. Civ decided to go the easy way and allow armies to morph into fleets, and basically make the AI see land and sea on equal footing. Here is a better approach.

Say you want to invade your enemies who live on the other side of a sea. What you do is:

1) Choose a coastal province.

2) Click: "Build camp to prepare for naval invasion". Construction starts on a provincial building (similar to trade posts and fortresses).

3) Once it's built. Click it and you have two options: (a) summon navies (c) start invasion

4) You move your troops to the province. If you have allies they should move their troops to the province as well.

5) Once the ships are ready, you click "start invasion". You are then prompted to choose a destination. Too far of a target won't work (depends on your navy tech). Once you choose your target you are prompted to load regiments into the ships (so you get to choose if you want your allies troops).

6) Once you do that, the campaign launches. There is nothing you can do from now on other than wait for the navy to arrive at its destination. You are completely at the mercy of the sea. Events can be scripted to simulate navies getting lost at sea, drowning in storms, etc.

7) You arrive, you do your business, and the war is eventually over. Now you have to worry about getting your troops back. Exact same thing. Build camp, load troops, go home. Note that in the current game the AI doesn't worry about getting its troops back home, it just disbands.

That's it.

Now imagine that it is possible, for certain kinds of governments, under certain kinds of conditions, to establish those navy camps in their provinces for their allies to use for launching naval invasions. That would pave the way for Italian city states facilitating the crusades, and that would indeed be a magnificent achievement for a game called Crusader Kings!