I'm a bit concerned about the portayal of the "Great Purge" in HoI IV

[Thiomay]

You all make great points aginst the way the game currently handles it. But I still think having the possibility of switching stalin with trotzki is an interessting feature. It doesn't matter what trotzki would have done if in power, that's all very abstract. Stalin on the other hand actually happend. So getting rid of him atleast allows the player to project some hope on the new face without ending the sowjet union compleatly. I like the Idea of making the purge something that is ended rather than started by NF. Maybe getting trotzky is less absurd if it is the result of pardoning and inviting him back when you end the purges. That way you have a meaningful choice and some level of belivablity.

Edit: Basicaly what the post above says. I viewed it after posting

 

[Lord Valentine]

But you have to try hard to make Germany or the US communists. It makes sense to try hard to make something ahistorical and crazy. Here you have to try hard not to go ahistorical. I love the idea of Trotsky in power in the USSR. But it should be completely reversed in the game mechanics. Stalin should be just fine and if you want and really go for it, then there should be Trotsky. Instead of Great Purge there could be Trotsky Plot NF.

That's actually exactly what I meant. Maybe I should articulated it more clearly. Like you said why not have an entire NF soley devoted to alternative internal developments in the SU? As a mutually exlusive option for example you could still have the "Stalin-Constitution" which leads you down the historic path juxtaposed with an alternative like "revive democratic centralism". Maybe you could get the option to reverse the ban on factions within the party which was one of the main cludegons Stalin beat his opponents with by smearing anyone who opposed him as a "factionalist" and "splitter of the party". At the end of the focus you could have an event that gives you number of options ranging from Stalin remaining as the head of a collective leadership, one of his opponents in still in the SU like Bukharin taking over or all the way to Stalin getting deposed as party-secretary and Trotzky getting invited back.

 

[theJ]

Well, I can see a few options...

"The Stalins View Option": Triggering "the Great Purge" will give you MASSIVE short term penalties(loss of officers, loss of experience, etc.), but in return, will also give you a HUGE influx of political power, which you will NEED if you plan on enacting the five-year plan(s), reforming the army into a professional rather than conscription-based force, and other big long-term projects that were IRL responsible for turning the USSR into a cold war era super power.
This approach has the benefit of turning the Great Purge into an interesting choice: Ignoring it is safer, and should help you hold off the Germans more effectively in a "standard" WWII scenario, with the Great Purge serving as a risky(and entirely optional) long-term venture.
Could also be implemented quite easily into the current NF-system, by simply making the appropriate focuses REQUIRE you to first activate the purge.

"The Dictator as Obstactle Option": Dictators are unpredictable little bastards, who may decide to throw events both major and minor in your face with little to no warning - such as the great purge - and it's up to you to make the most of the situations you are given.
The advantage of this approach is that it adds variety and makes the game just a little bit less predictable; you may know your dictator of choice is going to screw you over, but you don't know when or how. Especially fluffy for a German player since, if I've understood it correctly, this is basically how the relationship between the German High Command and their "beloved" Fuhrer worked.
Somewhat less fluffy for the soviets, perhaps, but it should still work out quite well as a gameplay mechanic

...kinda doubt there's still time to implement these things before release, though... perhaps in a DLC..?

EDIT: oh, we've moved on to Trotsky... really need to learn to type faster... erm... well, he makes for an interesting option, but I don't think it makes much sense for him to automatically unseat Stalin unless countered - would probably be better as a national focus of its own; "Unseat Stalin", massively improves your diplomatic abilities, at the cost of NU, political power, and possibly industrial efficiency...?

 

[77Hawk77]

The only thing i am concerned about is that Trotsky and Stalin should be equally good choices.

 

[lekim]

Emphasis on 1943.

1944 after Crimea was liberated and it was "kind" or response to collaboration.

 

[lekim]

The only thing i am concerned about is that Trotsky and Stalin should be equally good choices.

They should both be the worst choices ever if u want it to be historical

 

[77Hawk77]

They should both be the worst choices ever if u want it to be historical

There shouldn't be negative leaders for majors, they should give bonuses to reward play styles not appease personal opinions on historical people, I don't think any politician smells of roses after even a year in office, but that shouldn't stop them from being Fun to play.

 

[BoleslavLev]

You all make great points aginst the way the game currently handles it. But I still think having the possibility of switching stalin with trotzki is an interessting feature. It doesn't matter what trotzki would have done if in power, that's all very abstract. Stalin on the other hand actually happend. So getting rid of him atleast allows the player to project some hope on the new face without ending the sowjet union compleatly. I like the Idea of making the purge something that is ended rather than started by NF. Maybe getting trotzky is less absurd if it is the result of pardoning and inviting him back when you end the purges. That way you have meaning choice and some level of belivablity.

I totally agree (and hope that I made that clear before) with this. I just think Trotsky should be something you will get as a reward and challenge and not something you´ll get as a punishment for not doing the Purge. I might also be against it, because it is binary - do nothing or do huge Purges. Maybe having richer scale would make me feel better. I am not against the maluses at the beginning and against making some decision whether to make them go away and how soon to do it. USSR is not the only country that gets some maluses at the beginning. But these purges seem a bit too extreme (as they were) and also they seem to give you both short term and long term troubles (because all your officers are gone). I hope Pdx has it balanced well.

EDIT: theJ is saying something similar to me concerning Trotsky. Yeah, I agree with that.

 

[mursolini]

Now don't take this as a venomous assault on Paradox. I understand that they are often in a bit a of binder to bring historical accuracy and gameplay together in a meaningful way. As such the "Great Purge" is a considerable challenge. It's massivly destructive and insane aspects are immediatly apparent while many historians still fail to see what the motivation behind it could have been outside of Stalins unhinged desire for absolute domination of the state. However adopting an event chain that follows old Uncle Joe's own logic of "we had to smash the traitors or else Trotzky would have come back and ruined the country" I feel veers away not only from historical accuracy but too strongly towards apologetic revisionist history, that ascribes somewhat statesmanlike motivations for one of the most bizarre and bloodthirsty acts of state terror in the 20th century.

Well, Democracies have elections, to "purge" officials that lose in the court of public opinion. Dictatorships have similar clan struggles, but no clear legal framework for removing clans from power. Similar thing happens quite a lot, Soviet pre-war ones were just high-profile ones, while, for example current clan wars in leadership of China, that already dismissed tens of thousands officials, get little press in the west, hence, purges seem like a huge, strange event, if you study them separate, but they are the normal order of business if you look at other dictatorships, especially after they establish solid grip, purges of less loyal allies are quite common.

While there were "spikes" called "purges", the infighting between Bolsheviks started shortly after they got to power, and didn`t cease at least till the end of WW2, during which, the last remnants of old revolutionaries were either killed, or removed from power under the guise of bad performance. There were at least 5-6 (AFAIK) strong clans in SU, presumably, purges were destruction of one or two, with the positions taken by people of victorious clans. To gain power Bolsheviks had to compromise a lot, and after their position was safe, was exactly the time to pull out their old grievances.

Plus, not every one was a fan of the way bureaucracy was starting to work, nor every one who got into high position could work in new environment. Stalin was building "new" society, hence, the old officials were replaced. Due to his intimate knowledge of how many high-ranking Bolsheviks were killed in power struggle, he wasn`t going to assume officials will go down without a fight. There were also at least 3 assassination attempts on him, so he wasn`t exactly paranoid.

 

[Denkt]

The Purge is a national focus that take 240 days or so to complete so if you did not purge you could take 3.5 other national focuses. So it is basically a choice between some significant penalties (Purge) or a very big penalty + 3.5 bonuses (not purge).

 

[77Hawk77]

Purge is required to take a bunch of important other focuses, so there really is no choice.

 

[Denkt]

There is still plenty of focuses left, especially those that lead to an early war. And a early war may be good with Trotskij as you do not have the crippling purge penalties.

It is also possible that if Trotskij take over that you can skip the great purge and take the focuses it leads to.

 

[Rufo]

It's reasonable to be concerned about how a topic such as the Purge is handled, and the difficulty of designing its impact to give both relevant gameplay choices, interesting outcomes and at the same time try to connect back to the real events has led to the event chain being redesigned and rewritten throughout development. The final result does compromise between these different goals, but I would still like to address some of the chief concerns voiced here.

Having a risk of civil war and Trotsky returning are designs coming from the perspective of interesting outcomes, rather than plausible ones. It's definitely true that these were outcomes Stalin's administration wanted to seem plausible, and we have no intention to give credibility to the attempts of the regime to justify their crimes. We aim to counteract their narrative by telling the story so that in these scenarios, the reason for the crises are not the boogeymen Stalin created to justify the Purges, but rather Stalin himself. With the Fourth International, if the Purge has not occurred as it did in history, Stalin ramps up both his paranoia and hostility to those who are still alive. This then leads, ironically, to the implausible results he saught to portray as the reasons for the Purges.

We understand that this is a risky balance and criticism of this design and its execution are of course still welcome, but it should be made as clear as possible that we have no plans to present the way the Purges were justified in propaganda as valid reasons.

 

[Raptor83]

Thanks @Rufo for explanation!

 

[Beagá]

It was always a tricky event to script, because just like Italy´s invasion of Greece, it´s one of the situations where apparently the bad effects were way bigger than the good ones.

I don´t agree with making Stalin the center of it. There were groups inside the country and personal vendettas and those justified the amount of killed people more than Stalin´s personal will.

I say that because reading a book about the Inquisition and it´s clear there was never a central will, but rather some very local processes which were often criticized even in Rome. I doubt that wasn´t the case in CCCP in the 30s. Things are never THAT black and white.

Anyway the more important aspect for gameplay is making both choices viable.

 

[blue_yonder]

@Rufo - bravo. I don't remember ever seeing a more sensible and thoughtful post here.

 

[Red Roo]

'Troskyites coming to power is so unrealistic'

Right, because military coups never happen. Ever.

 

[gluck3d]

Some concerns on what I have read through the topic (thinking out loud).

a) I haven't seen any actions or focuses related to Holocaust when David was playing Germany. You know, it is obviously no less important then Great Purge. How the downsides of Fascism are represented in game? (obviously not saying that purges were anyhow good)
b) Afaik, from mutliple literature like K. Simonov, also from the stories of my relatives, KGB (actually it was not named like that in WW2 time) was not a significant reason behind Red Army being motivated to fight. There were lot of volunteers (including women and children) trying to get to the front. In lot of cases, actually men were refused to be taken there due to important profession in industry, science, even culture like theater, cinema etc. At the same time military personnel was aware about Smersh being very suspicious, seeking spies everywhere, so even if you (as soviet soldier) have freed from german captivity, in most cases you could be executed when reaching your army. Better way would be to join partisans or somehow fake the story that you have never being caught by germans. May be this can be represented by higher manpower losses when retreating, for example? In comparison with other nations.

At the same time I was thinking what good can be in Great Purge (yep, it is cynical, but usually historical events are not completely one-sided). I would say that for most people, Stalin was not the man responsible for purges. It was like "KGB is scary and dangerous, but they are protecting Stalin from spies and sabotage attempts'. Propaganda was pretty good, so most people awe and loved Stalin (at least that is what I heard from my great-grand parents). Only when personality cult was dismantled after Stalin death, most people realized that Stalin was somehow responsible for all those deaths...
So Great Purge was more kind of positive on national unity and political power. While people became scared, at the same time they have united around Stalin. So even morale effect is kind of mixed.

 

[Lither]

'Troskyites coming to power is so unrealistic'

Right, because military coups never happen. Ever.

If, and that is a big if, that ever happened in the USSR, it'd be Bukharin over the politically dead Trotsky.

 

[henzington]

Much like the another post about the structure of the British empire specifically Egypt not being modeled properly, I will say ultimately enjoyable gameplay is more important then 100% historical correct.