Can bookmarks be created without affecting history?
Because otherwise, that Aztec empire would be visible in the history for all later bookmarks... and I would not like that.
Ihíio, Itlátol - An Offscreen Aztec Map Project
- Thread starter Thure
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Because otherwise, that Aztec empire would be visible in the history for all later bookmarks... and I would not like that.
Yes they can. You can also use start_date as a trigger to check if the game was started at a given date, and trigger events on_startup only if started at a given date that way.
If I may give my two cents, I think that it makes sense for the Aztecs to still have a mini-reformation sort of thing, representing their effort to take hold of the continent, but nowhere on the level of regular Pagan reformations. Perhaps you'd need a certain amount of Aztec-religion provinces for an event to trigger which establishes a stronger religious hierarchy in the Old-New World.
I don't really feel the trade route idea makes sense for the Aztecs. After all, they have the boats able to cross the atlantic, and not anyone else, so the trade route is wherever they want to dock.
Here are some thoughts :
When the Interaction button does appear : after the first aztec explorers event
Who can interact : Anyone with a coastal province to the atlantic ( exact limit is up to balance)
What you can do to gain "grace" : Basically the same options as the chinese, with some variations :
-cash gift
-tributary (probably a different kind than the chinese one, less cash and more troops or something, Balance TBD)
-supply horses ( valid for everyone here, decrease horsey troops available)
-supply troops ( same but with all troops)
-offer a sacrifice ( i have no idea on how sacrifices were chosen, so i'll defer to someone more knowledgeable, but something like a prestigious vassal, a pious priest or a fair maiden would actually cause you trouble amongst your people, which is an interesting trade for a bunch of "grace")
-offer a concubine
-offer a commander
-offer a physician (if in plague status)
-send relief (if in plague status)
-offer artifact ( if appliable)
-offer to kneel before the emperor ( if appliable)
-Convert (large amount of "grace", plus a monthly gain)
What you gain from "grace" :
Here i'm not sure most of the current choices work.
To simulate the fact that the trade with them would introduce new resources and behaviors , i propose some boons of the following sort :
Trade in [New Resource] : small cost of "grace", monthly cost. Stop if you get to 0. small effect on character and provinces. For example :
Trade in tobacco : slight decrease to revolt risk /slight increase to land morale
If you have enough grace, you could even request to be taught about the crops you're importing, learning how to grow them. This would allow you to get a "growing resource" modifier in some of your provinces, giving a larger bonuses that could be expanded onto.
For example :
Learn how to grow tobacco : any 5 provinces get "Tobacco Growing", bonus to income, decrease to revolt risk, neighbouring provinces can build a "Smoking House", further decreasing the revolt risk
Other resources could be Cocoa, Corn, Cotton, ...
Some variation of the basic choices could still work :
Request a Commander
Request a Priest
Request an Imperial Mariage ( maybe)
Request an Artifact
A major difference between the chinese and Aztec Emperors would be that the Aztec one would be more active, and more prone to being irritated. You'll regularly get requests ( in event form) of one of the potential gifts, for a lower grace gain. If you refuse, your grace would drop.
( Note that we can use negative "grace" values in the code ). If it gets very low, it would mean that the Aztec Emperor is really irritated with you.
This would actually one of the possible causes of Sunset Invasion ( the other being the Empire feeling Expansionist). Basically, instead of being fully random, the invasion would be more likely to occur on people with low Aztec Grace and less likely on people with high Aztec Grace ( no risk of being invated if you're in the good grace of the Emperor and he's not feeling expansionist).
The statuses and policies then modify the likelihood of the various requests, along with the costs and gains of the boons and gifts.
Empire Status :
Stable
Civil War/Iroquois Wars/ Inca Wars : Requests of Troops more likely , less likely to invade
Plague : Grace drops heavily every month, less likely to invade, more likely to Request Physicians or Relief
Empire Polcy :
Default
Expansionist : More likely to invade
Religious : Common Religion raises grace faster, different religion lowers it faster. More Requests to Convert
These are just some basic ideas that need to be refined and expanded to make it more interesting but i feel it makes it different enough from the chinese system to be worth having.
(All i've described is a priori doable currently in engine without much trouble)
Here are some thoughts :
When the Interaction button does appear : after the first aztec explorers event
Who can interact : Anyone with a coastal province to the atlantic ( exact limit is up to balance)
What you can do to gain "grace" : Basically the same options as the chinese, with some variations :
-cash gift
-tributary (probably a different kind than the chinese one, less cash and more troops or something, Balance TBD)
-supply horses ( valid for everyone here, decrease horsey troops available)
-supply troops ( same but with all troops)
-offer a sacrifice ( i have no idea on how sacrifices were chosen, so i'll defer to someone more knowledgeable, but something like a prestigious vassal, a pious priest or a fair maiden would actually cause you trouble amongst your people, which is an interesting trade for a bunch of "grace")
-offer a concubine
-offer a commander
-offer a physician (if in plague status)
-send relief (if in plague status)
-offer artifact ( if appliable)
-offer to kneel before the emperor ( if appliable)
-Convert (large amount of "grace", plus a monthly gain)
What you gain from "grace" :
Here i'm not sure most of the current choices work.
To simulate the fact that the trade with them would introduce new resources and behaviors , i propose some boons of the following sort :
Trade in [New Resource] : small cost of "grace", monthly cost. Stop if you get to 0. small effect on character and provinces. For example :
Trade in tobacco : slight decrease to revolt risk /slight increase to land morale
If you have enough grace, you could even request to be taught about the crops you're importing, learning how to grow them. This would allow you to get a "growing resource" modifier in some of your provinces, giving a larger bonuses that could be expanded onto.
For example :
Learn how to grow tobacco : any 5 provinces get "Tobacco Growing", bonus to income, decrease to revolt risk, neighbouring provinces can build a "Smoking House", further decreasing the revolt risk
Other resources could be Cocoa, Corn, Cotton, ...
Some variation of the basic choices could still work :
Request a Commander
Request a Priest
Request an Imperial Mariage ( maybe)
Request an Artifact
A major difference between the chinese and Aztec Emperors would be that the Aztec one would be more active, and more prone to being irritated. You'll regularly get requests ( in event form) of one of the potential gifts, for a lower grace gain. If you refuse, your grace would drop.
( Note that we can use negative "grace" values in the code ). If it gets very low, it would mean that the Aztec Emperor is really irritated with you.
This would actually one of the possible causes of Sunset Invasion ( the other being the Empire feeling Expansionist). Basically, instead of being fully random, the invasion would be more likely to occur on people with low Aztec Grace and less likely on people with high Aztec Grace ( no risk of being invated if you're in the good grace of the Emperor and he's not feeling expansionist).
The statuses and policies then modify the likelihood of the various requests, along with the costs and gains of the boons and gifts.
Empire Status :
Stable
Civil War/Iroquois Wars/ Inca Wars : Requests of Troops more likely , less likely to invade
Plague : Grace drops heavily every month, less likely to invade, more likely to Request Physicians or Relief
Empire Polcy :
Default
Expansionist : More likely to invade
Religious : Common Religion raises grace faster, different religion lowers it faster. More Requests to Convert
These are just some basic ideas that need to be refined and expanded to make it more interesting but i feel it makes it different enough from the chinese system to be worth having.
(All i've described is a priori doable currently in engine without much trouble)
Just an idea :
When the Aztecs first come to Europe in order to conquer their New World, after some time the authority of the Emperor will be challenged by his Cuauhtlatoani, triggering invasions from both parts to subjugate the other (so the Europeans will be able to reconquer the lands they lost) ?
When the Aztecs first come to Europe in order to conquer their New World, after some time the authority of the Emperor will be challenged by his Cuauhtlatoani, triggering invasions from both parts to subjugate the other (so the Europeans will be able to reconquer the lands they lost) ?
Based on the fact the Aztecs in real life believed they lived in the 'fifth' and final world, perhaps they would refer to Europe as the 'fourth' world, which they believed was destroyed in a great flood?
Because there's no reason for it to be?Still waiting for someone to explain why Aztecs shouldn't be an organized faith...
Honestly, Aztec and Germanic have about as much to do with one another as Germanic and Zunist, Tengri, West African, and Bon do. They're all in the Pagan group together because "Pagan" is the catch-all for decentralized polytheistic religions without a written scripture.
If you think Aztec shouldn't be in the Pagan group, you need to show that Aztec religion doesn't share that primary characteristic.
It could make sense to have Aztec be unreformable, like Bon, because it's not threatened with total extinction by it's neighbors. Which appears to be the whole point of Reformation according to its flavortext. (Bon is instead syncretized with Buddhism and Eastern religions, and has mechanics for that.)
Aztec Emperor should regularly demand that he be granted empty holding slots (ala holy orders), or provinces if your unlucky, and you should be able to offer such up as tribute. China wants trade and profit. Aztec Emperor wants land above all, its the first thing you learn about him. Its not fair, but unlike China, they are less prone to be reasonable.
Their moods should range from "ass being kicked by Incas and desperate" to "manifest destiny conquerers" (not those actual terms, obviously) ...they should never be seen as "friends", partners or allies...much like the Europeans in the new world in Real History, they don't need to bother with a facade. You can imagine them your friend, they may even tell you they are your friends, but they are here to claim the new (old) world. China isn't meant to replicate the Mongols, they are meant to add dynamism to the East. The Aztecs are an antagonist.
To quote Star Wars:
<Lando Calrissian> "But we had a deal! You said if we gave you a county, you wouldn't invade or ask for more! You'd attack someone else, and your Imperial Princess could stay here! You promised!"
<Aztec General/Envoy> "We have altered the deal. We are taking another county. Pray we do not see fit to alter it further!"
So yeah, I think you should absolutely maintain a sense of tension and danger whenever interacting with the Aztecs. The whole theme was of reversing manifest destiny/imperialism, and I think this is a great chance for that.
Their moods should range from "ass being kicked by Incas and desperate" to "manifest destiny conquerers" (not those actual terms, obviously) ...they should never be seen as "friends", partners or allies...much like the Europeans in the new world in Real History, they don't need to bother with a facade. You can imagine them your friend, they may even tell you they are your friends, but they are here to claim the new (old) world. China isn't meant to replicate the Mongols, they are meant to add dynamism to the East. The Aztecs are an antagonist.
To quote Star Wars:
<Lando Calrissian> "But we had a deal! You said if we gave you a county, you wouldn't invade or ask for more! You'd attack someone else, and your Imperial Princess could stay here! You promised!"
<Aztec General/Envoy> "We have altered the deal. We are taking another county. Pray we do not see fit to alter it further!"
So yeah, I think you should absolutely maintain a sense of tension and danger whenever interacting with the Aztecs. The whole theme was of reversing manifest destiny/imperialism, and I think this is a great chance for that.
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I think you should consider adding the Inca as well. If you have the Inca as well then a player could send them gifts and ask for favours as a way to fight off the Aztecs. Alternatively, there could be a small chance of the Incas sending their own invasion force to Europe and the Aztecs becoming unlikely allies against them. Having the Incas on map (or trading with them) could enable access to guns.
I think they should become syncretic rather than reform. Doing it should disable sacrifices (or tone them down) and adopt more peaceful elements. That should make rebellions less likely and offer governance benefits at the cost of slowing down expansion.
I think they should become syncretic rather than reform. Doing it should disable sacrifices (or tone them down) and adopt more peaceful elements. That should make rebellions less likely and offer governance benefits at the cost of slowing down expansion.
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Or, if you want a bit less work, it could work like the invasions of China: There is a chance that the Inca overrun the Aztecs and take over their empire, which would result in the ruling dynasty and even the title name changing (I don't remember if the latter is possible).
That was my idea. Maybe even some 'Hordes' from North America invading the Aztecs.
Or for me civilisation: Maya or Zapotec groups. Who nows. There are some possibilities. But Inca would be the primary one.
I think the Incas are significant enough in the Sunset Invasion canon (you see them when you convert to EUIV) that they should be a separate Empire. I don't think it'd be manageable for them to conquer the Aztec Empire and rule both jointly.
An idea for hordes could be the Athabaskan tribes (the Navajo, Apache, etc.); they were originally from Canada/the Pacific Northwest before they migrated to the American Southwest (around Arizona/New Mexico) in the 1200s. They could serve as an analogue to the Jurchens, Khitai, and Mongols for China.
Even the Aztecs thenselves could be a horde, then you would have to include the Toltecs as the Empire untill the 1100's.
Good idea. The Mesoamerican culture that dominates Mexico could vary by start date. Their exact power and deviation from history could vary as time goes on. If anything the Vinland/Aztec contact could be dynamic and either not happen or happen differently in some timelines. One potential outcome could be a permanent settlement in North America which eventually leads to a Norse Empire in Mexico. Another outcome could be the spread of disease to Mesoamerica which totally decimates the population and allows you to send expeditions over to raid and conquer parts.
I wouldn't call the Aztecs "a horde" though. Just have them taking over as one of the potential outcomes of a civil war. A civil war ending should place one of several Mesoamerican powers on the throne, rather than always a ruler of the same culture as the last. Then have an "invaded from the north" and "invaded from the south" status for other pools of cultures.
Invasion from the south (Maya), uprising from within and invasion from the north should all be possible. Each should affect the Mesoamericans differently. What seems clear now is that it should be less about making an "Aztec Mod" and more about making a Mesoamerican offmap power with variable personality and leadership.
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If you follow the original conception of SI, however, the Maya are now situated on the Caribbean Islands.
On the other hand, if you don't want to follow that, you could have the Carib peoples invade Mexico as another horde.
On the other hand, if you don't want to follow that, you could have the Carib peoples invade Mexico as another horde.
Only on the pre-set and railroaded timeline. By making the Aztecs an offmap power you can make the ultimate outcome dynamic. It would be that the Maya expand and the Aztecs are left as a minor tributary power in Tenochtitlan.
It would make sense, then, that they be differentiated in one way or another. Having different powers is meaningless if they are identical.