If you're not going to give us any patches til the next one is done, at least give us previews

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Gilga

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uhm, seems there is some kind of misunderstanding about what I mean for "game mechanic". When I say there is one way to play, it means: you can only play the RTS Simcity, planning your spec about resource chaining. And tht's it. I played a lot Simcity 2013, since release, given I preordered the game, and I know of what I'm speaking of.
And all the cities in any region i visited and built into, are all equal.
Having 5 specs to decide is not multiple way to play the game, because the mechanic is always the same.
Of course, in C:S the mechanic is also the same, but you have the freedom to design your city as you prefer. Don't you see the difference? This is the reason why I don't consider Simcity 2013 a city builder but more a RTS game.
My opinion is simply related to the concept of "city building". C:S sure can be improved a lot, it miss variety and some complexity, but it cover the genre of "city building" pretty well, while SImcity 2013 simply took another road.
The deep that you see in Simcity 2013 is just because Maxis is on this market for long long time, and past experience do matters.

C.S is a young product, be optimist, or just play Simcity 2013, it's not a crime :)
 

kosh22

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If we're going to get into a discussion about the quality of the game as a city builder allow me to say that this game has *very* little depth and almost feels more like a toy. I would argue, with complete sincerity, that SimCity 5 (if you ignore the small tile cities) is a better game in almost every way. Style, audio, personality, tilt-shift, filters, tourism, education, modular buildings, scale of buildings, style of buildings, variety of buildings, wealth levels, conflict, goals, problems to overcome, outside connections, customizability, specialized industry, resources, road shape tools, pollution, crime (by a fucking mile), sense of progression, progression actually making meaningful impact on your city, difficulty. Every single one of these is a deeper experience in SimCity 5. CS wins in transportation areas (though SC5 does have more types), the way water works, map scale, and...well, there's no terraforming in either.

I would argue the game feels very feature-incomplete. Tourism is proof- it's barely implemented and you can tell it only exists so they can work on it later, but they didn't hide it in the background because then they couldn't promote it as a gameplay feature. CS is a road building game with a relatively weak city building game pasted onto it. Note that I have well over 150 hours in CS and I love the game, but there's no denying it's a very shallow title.

Style = 50/50. Its a different style, not a horrible style.
audio = disagree. No difference in my mind.
personality =slightly agree. I do feel that I have less connection with the individuals. I miss their bubbles on screen. Mind you I have turned off chirper.
tilt-shift = disagree. Prefer CSL views.
filters = sorry not sure what you are referring to so no opinion.
tourism = agree obviously
education = disagree. Much prefer CSL. And lets recall how bugged SC 2013 was.
modular buildings = agree 70% but feel it's not a deal breaker.
scale of buildings = disagree 100%. Not sure which version of SC2013 you are referring to if you think scale worked compared to CSL.
style of builidngs = disagree. I have reloaded SC2013 and am now singularly unimpressed plus assets, assets, assets.
variety = agree but happy that community will deal with this. You forget the lack of assets in SC2013.
wealth levels = disagree. SC2013 was bugged in that respect.
conflict = agree. It seems quite hard to upset your CSL sims.
goals = 50/50 on this. I personally think the SC2013 goals were hollow and I became quickly frustrated by them. Cities don't have goals in general. And I like the level goal sin CSL.
problems to overcome = disagree. Only problems to overcome in SC2013 is the simplicity and map size unles that was what you were referring to. I am finding it harder to maintain cities in CSL that SC2013. Of course everyone plays differently so it is no guide.
outside connections = Don;'r see any issues here other than SC2013 bugged issues.
customizability = LOL. We'll let that one slide for you to save you embarrassment.
specialised industry = 70% agree. But not fully. No farms in SC2013.
resources = disagree mostly but not completely :)
road shape tool = 50/50 on that.
pollution = no opinion personally on that.
crime = 100% agree.
progression = disagree. I had no sense of progression in SC2013. Not sure what game you played. I filled the maps before I felt any type of progression.
progression and impact = see above.

Obviously everyone has a different outlook. You see SC2013 as a very different game to CSL. In fact I would probably post (and I think have posted) almost the exact same post on EA forum against sc2013. And you do seem to ignore the bugs which are far greater (even now) that CSL. Saying that I do miss some parts of SC2013 but I wouldn't wish it on my enemy.
 

gmcallis

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If we're going to get into a discussion about the quality of the game as a city builder allow me to say that this game has *very* little depth and almost feels more like a toy. I would argue, with complete sincerity, that SimCity 5 (if you ignore the small tile cities) is a better game in almost every way. Style, audio, personality, tilt-shift, filters, tourism, education, modular buildings, scale of buildings, style of buildings, variety of buildings, wealth levels, conflict, goals, problems to overcome, outside connections, customizability, specialized industry, resources, road shape tools, pollution, crime (by a fucking mile), sense of progression, progression actually making meaningful impact on your city, difficulty. Every single one of these is a deeper experience in SimCity 5. CS wins in transportation areas (though SC5 does have more types), the way water works, map scale, and...well, there's no terraforming in either.

I would argue the game feels very feature-incomplete. Tourism is proof- it's barely implemented and you can tell it only exists so they can work on it later, but they didn't hide it in the background because then they couldn't promote it as a gameplay feature. CS is a road building game with a relatively weak city building game pasted onto it. Note that I have well over 150 hours in CS and I love the game, but there's no denying it's a very shallow title.

Sir, if you are so disappointed with CS, and so in favor of SC5, GO AND ENTERTAIN YOURSELF WITH SC5!!
 
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Simify

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"It was bugged" doesn't mean it wasn't deeper. By your logic every aspect of CS sucks because they're all bugged. Traffic is bugged, industry is bugged, education is bugged, they all have bugs, and a lot of those bugs are damaging. But they don't matter? yes, there were bugs involving wealth level in SimCity. But how on earth does that mean that SimCity's wealth levels weren't deeper? They existed, and in CS, they don't. Uh...? Same goes for education. The University system in SC5 is objectively, undeniably, as a matter of absolute fact 10x deeper than in CS, but because it has bugs, you "disagree" that it was deeper? What on earth are you talking about?

Building scale is better in CS? In CS the widest building is 4 cars in length. They look ridiculous...The biggest skyscraper is smaller than a single family home's yard. The biggest parking lot is the size of a bus stop.
 
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Greygor69

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Style = 50/50. Its a different style, not a horrible style.
audio = disagree. No difference in my mind.
personality =slightly agree. I do feel that I have less connection with the individuals. I miss their bubbles on screen. Mind you I have turned off chirper.
tilt-shift = disagree. Prefer CSL views.
filters = sorry not sure what you are referring to so no opinion.
tourism = agree obviously
education = disagree. Much prefer CSL. And lets recall how bugged SC 2013 was.
modular buildings = agree 70% but feel it's not a deal breaker.
scale of buildings = disagree 100%. Not sure which version of SC2013 you are referring to if you think scale worked compared to CSL.
style of builidngs = disagree. I have reloaded SC2013 and am now singularly unimpressed plus assets, assets, assets.
variety = agree but happy that community will deal with this. You forget the lack of assets in SC2013.
wealth levels = disagree. SC2013 was bugged in that respect.
conflict = agree. It seems quite hard to upset your CSL sims.
goals = 50/50 on this. I personally think the SC2013 goals were hollow and I became quickly frustrated by them. Cities don't have goals in general. And I like the level goal sin CSL.
problems to overcome = disagree. Only problems to overcome in SC2013 is the simplicity and map size unles that was what you were referring to. I am finding it harder to maintain cities in CSL that SC2013. Of course everyone plays differently so it is no guide.
outside connections = Don;'r see any issues here other than SC2013 bugged issues.
customizability = LOL. We'll let that one slide for you to save you embarrassment.
specialised industry = 70% agree. But not fully. No farms in SC2013.
resources = disagree mostly but not completely :)
road shape tool = 50/50 on that.
pollution = no opinion personally on that.
crime = 100% agree.
progression = disagree. I had no sense of progression in SC2013. Not sure what game you played. I filled the maps before I felt any type of progression.
progression and impact = see above.

Obviously everyone has a different outlook. You see SC2013 as a very different game to CSL. In fact I would probably post (and I think have posted) almost the exact same post on EA forum against sc2013. And you do seem to ignore the bugs which are far greater (even now) that CSL. Saying that I do miss some parts of SC2013 but I wouldn't wish it on my enemy.


I'll go along with most of that.

With Pollution I'd probably disagree with the "years and years to clean up" comment. When I played it if you plopped a sewage outlet and let it create heavy ground pollution. then deleting it and planting a heavy forest would normally clean it up in 3 - 5 game days.

Also I'm not sure Services in SimCity 2013 worked any better/differently than in C:SL. If you plop a single Fire Station in SimCity 2013 it would try to cover all the fires that break out in that City and only fail because of traffic, granted you would be adding vehicles.

@Simify But any-hoo, lets hold of on whose ding-dong is bigger until C:SL has been patched as many times as SC. We should probably debate this again in 12 months time :)
 
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CalPolyFan

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Building scale is better in CS? In CS the widest building is 4 cars in length. They look ridiculous...The biggest skyscraper is smaller than a single family home's yard. The biggest parking lot is the size of a bus stop.

Agree- One of the things I personally miss most from SC4 was the large yards in the more lavish neighborhoods, and the larger sizes of the "max build" skyscraper lot sizes. For that period in time, it really seemed the scale was more on.

Like I have said too many times on this forum, for me, the biggest turnoff is the max 4x4 groweable zone sizes, the architectural style (which can be "modded" but the base model set design direction wasn't great, and the more mods added, it appears the longer load times, problems)

The thing that really left a bad taste though was the lack of actual city simulation.. This city simulation makes the classic error it seems every city builder (even SC 4 exhaggerated skylines) seems to make: Way too many tall buildings, way too early.

I would feel better about having an extremely tall skyline to city size ratio had I built some amazing port to drive up commerce, becoming a global hub, or a fantastic cargo airport, or a huge fishing economy, or something- but for a city as small as most of the ones we have made have been.. the building heights are ridiculous.. Look at most North-American cities or European cities as examples: How many cities as small as our in CSL would have that many skyscrapers? None. Maybe Benidorm, but that's because of tourism/ocean views (proximity to water/ocean cliff views for land value is another layer that would have been fun that was left out).

There is no reason some Podunk town with a couple of bus routes should have such a large skyline, and when the skyline starts to grow, there isn't any focus to it really, it's just where you zoned dense commercial.. Offices don't seem to grow very much.

Industrial looks good, (minus purple ground pollution, not sure what they were thinking there) but it would be nice to see actual goods- generic containers or whatever actually filling rail yards/airport warehouses etc.. like they had back in the original A-train..

Which kind of brings me to the rather simple shipping/ airport functionality. This game would have had so much value added with am emphasis on modularity in building construction, and a larger view for aviation- and Aerobiz Supersonic esque airline aspect (simplified) would have created an actual reason for that runway expansion, or terminal expansion.

A new freight deal with Golactic out of Anchorage would be the reason you had to increase your freight handling infrastructure, cargo terminal, and fueling at your airport.

Again, these are kind of "DLC" type things, but I worry that if we weren't in the age of DLC they would have been included upon launch.. but who knows.

Even Sim City 2000 had groweable port zones, and airport zones.. Albeit, they were just filler structures, but it was the right direction. With a modular design to airport and port construction, an economic demand aspect of growing those large infrastructure projects, and planning ahead for an area appropriate to accommodate growth would have been great. Instead we have these semi-working ports (ships seem to sail into the land a lot) and a one-size fits all airpot..

There doesn't seem to be any sort of valuable interconnectedness to the "outside world" - I was hoping that, using a "measurement type" max groweable city tile, we would see much larger maps, simply stitching together the smaller 25km2 map size in CSL.. Kind of like the model SC4 worked, but just using squares to simplify things.

That way, you could create a map of England, it would just use a scale of 10km in each direction, so creating an airline or shipping route could be simply calculated, even if the data coming from the other map was simply generated using the Pythagorean theorem.. just give us something using a much larger heightmap, and things could get larger, but as it is, we appear to be capped.. I understand why they limited city sizes, but don't understand why the didn't include more inter-regional connectivity, vis-a-vis SC4 so things could get larger, even if it was simply a regional view of the larger picture.

The other main thing that continues to bother me is the "snap to road" building restriction. Ideally, a structure should be allowed to be built anywhere, just not function correctly if a road connection isn't added after the fact. Hopefully this will be fixed.

CSL was groundbreaking with the flowing water, road/rail construction simplicity and flexibility, and map sizes, but continues to lack in other areas, which give it a "hollow" feeling. I do not see a City Skyline, I see a flat-top looking city with way too many skyscrapers, and for me, that's a simulation letdown.

Again, there are elements of the game which are fantastic, and giant steps forward, but it is fundamentally flawed as a city simulator.
 
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Hyronymus

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I really like a good debate but it must be sensible. Where this thread started with suggestions to take more matters into consideration to get a more refined opinion it has now become an attempt to convince one person to change his opinion about the game. In all honestly Simify is allowed to his opinion.

Just one suggestion to @Simify though: you tend to state personal opinions as if they are universal facts but opinions are never facts. I am convinced you get merrier reactions if you find a smoother way to onvey your personal opinions in the future.
 
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Simify

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http://www.lazygamer.net/genre/sim-genre/cities-skylines-developer-combats-piracywith-patches/

By the way, I found this. Looks like before release they made a big point of noting that Magicka was updated 13 times in 14 days, and a similar concept of "lots of patches" would help CS be a great game and prevent piracy.

13 patches in 14 days.

CS is going on 2.5 in three months. So. Uh. What happened with that, exactly? They decided to forego patches for at least a month to make one big one? How does that in any way work with the idea that they'd update frequently to improve the game, like with Magicka? And again, let me reiterate: Magicka is THEIR example, not mine. THEY made that example. And here we are...
 
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Simify

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I do not see a City Skyline, I see a flat-top looking city with way too many skyscrapers, and for me, that's a simulation letdown.

That's another good point and another huge problem that SimCity did better. In CS, if a family is happy, their house magically transforms into an apartment building. Depending on the shape of hte lot, of course- the most logical way to determine what kind of house goes where! Family home? Nope, you placed a school. Now it's a 3 story townhouse duplex. Or a weird finnish modern monstrosity. Want some suburbs? Well, you better not provide ANY services, because once those people are even slightly happy, suburbs cease to exist...
 

slornie

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http://www.lazygamer.net/genre/sim-genre/cities-skylines-developer-combats-piracywith-patches/

By the way, I found this. Looks like before release they made a big point of noting that Magicka was updated 13 times in 14 days, and a similar concept of "lots of patches" would help CS be a great game and prevent piracy.

13 patches in 14 days.

CS is going on 2.5 in three months. So. Uh. What happened with that, exactly? They decided to forego patches for at least a month to make one big one? How does that in any way work with the idea that they'd update frequently to improve the game, like with Magicka? And again, let me reiterate: Magicka is THEIR example, not mine. THEY made that example. And here we are...
A few things about this:

First, that Magicka required 14 patches in 13 days makes you question the QA that was done pre-release for that game. I think CSL started off life in a much more better state and thus didn't require so many updates.

Second, the post about Magicka was made several minutes later than the first two so it could have been in answer to a different question Shams was asked (also note that although Shams works for Paradox he is not directly involved in CSL; he was the guy who spawned all the confusion about easy unlocking 25 tiles). The first two posts are more about Paradox's plan to add brand new content to the game (like the tunnels and wall-to-wall buildings you insist on calling "cosmetic") in regular free upgrades alongside DLC.

EDIT: And I also want to touch on one point from your wall of text on the other page about differences between CSL and SC13:

Pollution in CS is "this building makes the ground dirty". Pollution in SimCity is air pollution AND ground pollution, and both take considerable effor to relieve. Removing a building in CS gets rid of pollution in a very short time. Completely clearing an area in SC and loading it with trees takes years upon years to remove pollution and it's devastating. You have to be very careful with pollution but it's next to inconsequential in CS.
And what about the water pollution system integral to CSL? Linking sewage into the dynamic water system and the consequences of poor planning on the health of your city and cims!
 

Gilga

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I really didn't wanted to post another reply, given we are expressing opinions and will not change our mind anyway :)

But your statement about suburbs made me smile a bit: have you considered that suburbs, by definition, need to lack in services and beautification? How you can have a suburb if you build parks, services and other cool stuff?

This happens also in Simcity, where you need to avoid increasing land value if you want low-wealth people still in. :)
 
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Simify

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And what about the water pollution system integral to CSL? Linking sewage into the dynamic water system and the consequences of poor planning on the health of your city and cims!

Oh, come on. The water "system" is trivial. An 8 year old could make a city without water pollution problems. Put the pump on the wide part of the arrows, put the outlet towards the narrow part of the arrows. Tada. You've solved the puzzle. And don't get me started on placing pipes. I know it's more "realistic" and gives an illusion of "control" but it's pointless tedium. Having them automatically placed with roads wouldn't make the game easier and having them manually placed doesn't make it any harder or more complex. It's just tedium...
 
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Simify

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I really didn't wanted to post another reply, given we are expressing opinions and will not change our mind anyway :)

But your statement about suburbs made me smile a bit: have you considered that suburbs, by definition, need to lack in services and beautification? How you can have a suburb if you build parks, services and other cool stuff?

This happens also in Simcity, where you need to avoid increasing land value if you want low-wealth people still in. :)

Yes, but you can still get high-wealth suburbs. Density works differently in these games. Low density homes in SimCity are never little apartment buildings, they're ALWAYS single family homes. In CS low density is a combination of Low and Medium densities, and you can NOT maintain single family dwellings of any wealth value (percieved, as they don't exist) if you also want the people to not be crying constantly.

Also I recall it being very trivial to maintain low wealth value in SimCity wherever you wanted it maintained. But I haven't played in a while. I'm actually redownloading it right now.
 

Lord Canterbury

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Just one suggestion to @Simify though: you tend to state personal opinions as if they are universal facts but opinions are never facts. I am convinced you get merrier reactions if you find a smoother way to convey your personal opinions in the future.

Very much this. If the post had started with something like: "Well, I'm enjoying the game, but let's be honest, there are things that SimCIty did better. Obviously tourism, but also crime was much deeper and I think scalable services buildings were brilliant, as was the wealth system. Plus I really liked the resource chaining though I guess some may not. CO, I think it would be great if you implemented these features... are you planning on it?" then this thread would have turned out very differently (and much more pleasantly).
 
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Lord Canterbury

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Oh, come on. The water "system" is trivial. An 8 year old could make a city without water pollution problems. Put the pump on the wide part of the arrows, put the outlet towards the narrow part of the arrows. Tada. You've solved the puzzle. And don't get me started on placing pipes. I know it's more "realistic" and gives an illusion of "control" but it's pointless tedium. Having them automatically placed with roads wouldn't make the game easier and having them manually placed doesn't make it any harder or more complex. It's just tedium...

On vanilla maps the water system can become trival, but usually only after a new player has wiped out half of their population. As you note, for 8 year olds (who also play the game remember) it is likely to remain a challenge.

But on other maps water becomes awesome. Take this:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=432390618

Here it is a low flow river map with the ocean within an enclosed bay, so placement of water services becomes both critical and complex if you want to avoid cholera
Moreover, the map allows you to play with tidal waves :)
 

Keltia_Vikinga

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CS is nothing but roads and zones, Simify said.

it would not work as good as it is if that was only this. There is a lot of management in CS. And new things (sim water wind...). They made a modern SC4 , and with more of their own ideas; good ideas they are.also. one more detail is the folks listen to the players and players don't feel abandon by the firm who refuse to listen like another one i won't mention. Haha.

I had the opportunity to try the beta sc2013 and didn't buy that SC2013. Reading this thread, i read some bugs are still inside, today - in addition of the small map they kept. I don't see where SC2013 is deep city builder -same for SCS I had bought - while CS & SC4 are real city builders. I've been into this type of game since SC3000.

Since the beginning, you keep arguing this & that. but you forget of the so many management is in this game CS, the improvements there... The game acts like one true city builder for me since a city builder is about to build checking money, and so many other factors around. I'm truly happy to find them in this game which make it close to the real world while the others tasted the fantasy world with their SC and Sims series in that time...I don't know if somebody noticed... I like fantasy but how can they make this when the root has been forgotten? ....

Regarding previews, I have also asked them about, and they will when they will feel ready. I don't see what's wrong with this. Moo replied the same, and also said why to you here but you keep arguing... It sounds like you are here to kill the game and game sales, based on wrong ideas. I'd be moderator here, I think I would put this topic in archives or delete, and would warn you and prolly ban you for your impertinence even I dislike to ban.. Happily for you, I am not. :)

Look : we all have read your comments. Now, end this topic before the real moderators do something to your account. Be safe. :)

Regards
 
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jcitron

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Simify,

First I suggest you edit your post, message #70 that begins with: "If we're going to get into a discussion about the quality of the game...", etc. There is no reason to swear in there, and I'm sure the CoC violation could lead to some kind of infraction if not a temporary ban. Yes, I moderated another forum similar to this and handed out infractions daily for such offenses. If it weren't for your huge post, people may have noticed before.

Now back to topic... We know there are bugs, we know things are going to get patched. How long that takes, is how long it takes. As I said before, we need to let them fix the things first before publishing. It's also not good to say what might be fixed or added, then not come out with it. That can cause more problems going forward for all of us and put the devs in a bad spot.

We can play any game we want, whether it's SimCity, Cities Skylines, Cities XXL, Trainz TS12, or Railworks TS2015, Arma 3, etc.. It doesn't matter nor do we care. Games are supposed to be fun and wile away the time that probably should be used for something more productive, but it's more fun playing games... :) The thing is we don't discuss the other games in the competitor's forums as that causes sore feelings amongst everyone. TS12 and TS2015 are both railroad simulators from competing companies for example. Putting the two groups into a room together could lead to a blood bath, and I'll leave it at that. The same goes with saying how great SimCity 2013 is around here.... :)

That said, I do have "that program" as well as this one, and have used other city simulators as well. Sure SimCity has some things that are cool. I'm not denying that. There are also some truly glaring graphics bugs too like blinky faces on buildings, and this is paid-for DLC too and not freely made community content. There is also the fact that building don't always sit on the surface. How many buildings have you seen with air under them? Instead of the ground squishing underside, there is daylight, making things float above the surface as though there is some hidden force working there. There are also a ton of other bugs that have never been addressed and never will because the original team has been dissolved and moved on to other projects. Keep this in mind, unlike EA, we have close contact with the developers here. EA only does that for a month after the release, and then the product becomes another forgotten one that doesn't even get an update.

This game may not have depth as you say, but it's a game and as I said, games are supposed to be fun. It does a pretty good job too for being only version 1.07d.
 
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Langolier

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I have to agree with Simify regarding the lack of depth to the game or at least the "feeling" of lack of depth. I'm sure this could be improved but the pessimist in me says it won't be. If only we could mix CSL and SC5 in a pot and have the ultimate experience.
 

Co Starring

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