If you're not going to give us any patches til the next one is done, at least give us previews

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AshleyTayles

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The sense of entitlement is strong in this thread haha.

Getting a serious Déjà Vu feeling from the update thread here.

Why do people have no patience? CO will deliver, it may take them more time than you are expecting but this is no Duke Nukem Forever. Please for your health, calm down people. If you are not enjoying playing the game before the patch there are plenty of other games lol.

Also, its a stupid business decision to give out fix-lists and promises before release, hence why CO haven't released one yet for the upcoming patch. Could you imagine the levels of butthurt if CO said they were doing X but X didn't make it through Quality Assurance? I can, and its a truly horrendous future.
 
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Simify

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Could you imagine the levels of butthurt if CO said they were doing X but X didn't make it through Quality Assurance? I can, and its a truly horrendous future.

Nobody but me seems to mind that they held a beta for a patch and then released the patch with bugs people found in said beta intact. So there probably wouldn't be that big of a backlash, actually.

Seriously, though, I don't think people would care. This game's community barely wants to admit anything can ever go wrong with it, I really doubt there'd be any negative response worth mentioning.

This community has a vocal positive side, most communities have a vocal negative side. Here, everything negative is drowned out by unrelenting positivity, even in the face of nonsense like my repeated example of the patch beta.
 
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TotalyMoo

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Of course it would be nice with as much information as possible about the development, but this thread are a very good evidence for why it may not be a good idea for CO to do that.

What are the chances that TotallyMoo will ever again say ANYTHING about a possible estimated time of release for something? Zero?

Nah, it all depends on the timespan of things. Larger expansions = longer info-campaigns = earlier date ETA. :)
 
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Lord Canterbury

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...This community has a vocal positive side, most communities have a vocal negative side. Here, everything negative is drowned out by unrelenting positivity, even in the face of nonsense like my repeated example of the patch beta...

Oh good, I'm glad you understand. Most in this community have been waiting about 10 years for a really good city builder. To most people (95% according to steam), 13 Finnish chaps and chapesses have finally delivered what we have been waiting for. Yes we are happy. Many of us are very very happy.

We know there are bugs. We know that asset icons don't show and traffic has issues with choosing lanes and tourism doesn't really work. We know that it is a bit borked on Linux but we also know that anyone using Linux actually enjoys debugging so that's okay. We want the bugs fixed, but they are small issues in the face of the happiness about actually having a damn good city builder to play with. Complaining about some minor bugs would be like being offered a Ferrari and then finding out id doesn't have a cup holder and whining about it car being crap as a result.

Also complaining about minor bugs and not giving me the exact feedback that I would prefer to the 13 guys who just gave me the game I have been waiting for would seem more than a little churlish. Let them take their time. Hell, they can all go on holiday to a resort in Rarotonga for a month and I would still be happy.

So yes, the community is positive. Most people would see a corner of the internweb full of happy people with positive comments as a Good Thing. I know I do.

P.S. Apologies to those who object to my liberal use of the word We. If you don't believe it includes you then rest assured it is intended to mean me, plus some other people, but not you.
 
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Wastel

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Lord, count me in 105% to your "WE" - as you said 95% happy people - mostly silent and very very view giving unfriendly but LOUD comments. I am gaming many decades and i never ever have seen such a smooth and friendly support by any devs before.
I am eager to get the new patch, but it really doesnt matter if 1 week earlier or later - it will be here when the CO stats it as stable and ready.
For the info - yes its nice to get some, but on the other hand its also fun to get surprised with some new thing you didnt expect.
i do bet some beers that 95% of us will be even happier after the release.
 
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NZSimplicity

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Lord Canterbury
P.S. Apologies to those who object to my liberal use of the word We. If you don't believe it includes you then rest assured it is intended to mean me, plus some other people, but not you.

No apology needed, you can count me in as one of the "we" as well, having waited 10+years for a "good" city builder it doesn't worry me at all if I have to wait another month or two for a patch to come out, I am having soo much fun playing and working around the "slight" problems the game has right now..
 
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Simify

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If we're going to get into a discussion about the quality of the game as a city builder allow me to say that this game has *very* little depth and almost feels more like a toy. I would argue, with complete sincerity, that SimCity 5 (if you ignore the small tile cities) is a better game in almost every way. Style, audio, personality, tilt-shift, filters, tourism, education, modular buildings, scale of buildings, style of buildings, variety of buildings, wealth levels, conflict, goals, problems to overcome, outside connections, customizability, specialized industry, resources, road shape tools, pollution, crime (by a fucking mile), sense of progression, progression actually making meaningful impact on your city, difficulty. Every single one of these is a deeper experience in SimCity 5. CS wins in transportation areas (though SC5 does have more types), the way water works, map scale, and...well, there's no terraforming in either.

I would argue the game feels very feature-incomplete. Tourism is proof- it's barely implemented and you can tell it only exists so they can work on it later, but they didn't hide it in the background because then they couldn't promote it as a gameplay feature. CS is a road building game with a relatively weak city building game pasted onto it. Note that I have well over 150 hours in CS and I love the game, but there's no denying it's a very shallow title.
 
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KR153

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If we're going to get into a discussion
There won´t be any discussion of anything here. Don´t you get it? Either you love this unconditionally or you shut up. It is you who just refuses to see that this is "the greatest city builder of the last 10 years" (not my quote) (chuckle chuckle):p. Having a different opinion without directly offering a simple solution (that should have been provided by devs in the first place) is equal to trolling. I know, took me a while as well, but have a look at every critical thread here. Doesn´t matter if you even try to get on a more "discussionable" level or straight up shout out your anger, the result is the same.
People say to me that I am an pessimist and that I always see at first what could NOT work... and yet I am still surprised how often my assumptions are excelled. W2W buildings do not fit into the ususal zoning concept? Durr.... big surprise. That was exactly my very first thought when I heard W2W buildings and the devs didn´t? I can hardly imagine that. So why announcing stuff that you don´t even know how to get it to work?
Hit the "disagree" all you want (what a childish idea in the first place, only suits people who need the approval of others) but it is correct: This game has no depth. It is basically a browser game.
 
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Simify

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It's pretty interesting that they had intent to include wall to wall buildings before the game launched, yet did not bother to work the zoning system to support them.

And I have to say that adding new building types before adding any sense of WEALTH VALUE is sad, beause that means they'll probably never add a concept of wealth to the game. Doing so would mean they'd need to make at least two more types of buildings to allow for low, medium, and high wealth values. If they aren't starting that now, they'll probably never do it later. So that depth will never be in the game and we'll be permanently stuck with these upper-middle-class people. No slums. No rich. No variety. No complications that come with varying values of wealth to overcome. Happy 3 bedroom 2.5 bathroom houses with 6 adults and 4 kids and 3 elders, forever.
 
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KR153

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Forever is quite a big word, but I feel betrayed. I have three buildings ready to go, four more in the works, was running around for hundreds of pics for textures and now they say they don´t even know how to get it done. * Insert ironic slow clap here*
Looking forward to pissed modders that see their time wasted. Look at some of that great projects in the workshop.... So much ambition, so less appreciation by the companies. It is a shame.
 

Gilga

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Simify, I totally disagree with you about Simcity 2013. I have all the maxis series, they still working in my actual win7 system, even the first simcity still working in a dosbox.

Just few days ago I relauched the simcity 2013, after a good load of hours spent in C:S (more than 300 hours now). Well, now it's almost impossible to play it, regardless of the fact that graphically the game looks cool.

First of all, all the features you mentioned were and still bugged as hell. Every number you read in the UI is a lye. Numbers are different if you see them from region view and inside the city. Communication between cities in the region (well, if you still can consider a simcity 2013 region a real region) is totally borked.

In terms of simulation you are not saying totally the truth, because Simcity 2013 is bugged as hell. Only thing that works decantly (when the service carsa don't go stuck outside the boundaries) is the resource chaining, the real new stuff about Simcity 2013.

Well, is that a city builder feature? No, that's a typical RTS mechanic and, sincerely, when I want to play something with this kind of gameplay, I sure play Anno 2070 that is a masterpiece of the genre and has nothing to do with city building.

About difficulty, I can assure you that every player that spent at least few hours in SImcity 2013, can start any city and gain an incredible amount of money in few time, even with a red budget.
You can't fail in SImcity 2013, same, to be honest, in C:S. But if you want more challenge, just activate hard mode and play.
But in C:S you got the freedom to build your own city. In Simcity 2013 you have no choice: start a resource chain and that's it. You don't have room to build a city there.

Simcity 4 is a city builder, Simcity 2013 is not.

Cities: Skylines is a city builder. Simcity 2013 is not. It's just a piece of crap software that got very few things right.

One thing I could save in Simcity 2013, regardless of the graphics, that every game can improve and is not related to the game mechanics, are the upgradeable service buildings.
That was a right idea and I wish to see it in C:S in the future.

Other than that, there is no match between Simcity 2013 and Cities:Skylines. Simcity 2013 is not a city builder, Cities:Skylines is a city builder, with some bugs that need to be fixed but still is a real city builder.

This is just my opinion, of course and you are entitled to express your disapproval (if in a civil manner is better), but I think CO deserves some trust before starting complaining.
 
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Simify

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May 5, 2015
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You only counter two things-

Specialized Industry

Difficulty

But completely ignore the visuals everything else. The things that actually make a video game a video game and not a toy. The things that are inarguably deeper in SC5.

CS is not difficult by any measure. You can destroy your entire city, obliterate every building, bring the population down to zero, and due to very poorly designed mechanics of how people move in and age and how age affects the city, the city WILL END UP A BETTER PLACE after you kill literally everyone. It's so "not hard" that you are rewarded for utter failure.

Specialized industry is completely ignorable, too. You don't have to use it. The option to use it is a great mini-micromanagement under micromanagement that adds significant complexity and variety to the game and challenges of building a functioning city/region.
 
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Greygor69

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You only counter two things-

Specialized Industry

Difficulty

But completely ignore the visuals everything else. The things that actually make a video game a video game and not a toy. The things that are inarguably deeper in SC5.

Oh I'm sure we could argue ... I mean discuss that.

What do you think was deeper in SC5 on launch day?

And this is a serious question as I'm keen to understand where your coming from.
 

Simify

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...I have already listed repeatedly what was deeper in SC5 on launch day.

The entire education system. The entire tourism system. The entire industry system. The entire density system. The entirety of the visuals. The entirety of the goals/conflicts systems. The entirety of the crime rate system. The entirety of the pollution systems. The entirety of the service systems. The entirety of the game's progression. The entirety of the region system (in CS it is not even possible to build two separate cities on one map and have them work together, they count as one city and all info views reflect that, and people aren't smart enough to work nearby or educate nearby etc). The entirety of the simulation timescale system.

Because CS works on a "people randomly decide to do things, and are randomly allowed to depending on how many agents are active" system, things like Education just don't work. Some houses might never go to elementary school before the kids are teens, and then they might never get to high school before they're adults. It takes generations for a building to count as educated because not every child ends up going ot school despite heavy school availability due to this awkward system of randomly letting people out of their homes. People count as having jobs even if they NEVER roll a desire to go to the job, and can go their entire life without leaving their house. In SimCity, there was an actual timescale to everything, and people with jobs ALL went to work, EVERY day, and kids with school access ALL went to school, EVERY day, and traffic reflected that, and you had to actually deal with rush hours and stuff. In Cities Skylines traffic is, at all times, a rough estimation of how things would go overall. It is never actually creating situations where there's everybody going home or going to work, or where school busses aren't making it through traffic (as they don't even exist) to get kids to school in time, or where the school's capacity isn't enough for all the kids in the city (instead, it's not enough for all the kids currently desiring to go to school at random).

CS has no goals and it has no situational conflicts. It has things like dead bodies that need picking up, and...that's about it. Everything else is pretty static. You add power and water and sewage and garbage and services as necessary, and there you go. You're doing good. Fires happen at random but they have next to no penalty. The unique building unlocks are sort of "goals" but they're not very well balanced and the rewards are not very well balanced, either. Meanwhile in Simcity disasters can happen, traffic can cause disasters, fires spread, etc.

In CS, when someone is upset about the lack of police coverage, they send a vague, uninteresting tweet to the internet and go about their day. You fix it, or don't, and life goes on. In SimCity, someone will throw up a giant bubble on their house that, when clicked, provides you with a detailed breakdown of what's wrong and how you can fix it (with humor thrown in) and offers the player the CHOICE to solve this problem and get bonuses if they do it in a timely manner and can prove, via the game's statistics, that they've made an impact- such as arresting a certain number of criminals, or recycling a certain amount of garbage, or going a certain number of days with no buildings burning down. You not only solve the problem, but you are actively rewarded for it, and moreso if you do a better job. You get an on-screen indicator of your progress towards a little mini-goal that directly tells you how well you solved the problem. If the problem isn't solved, something is wrong with your solution, and you may need to make changes.

Pollution in CS is "this building makes the ground dirty". Pollution in SimCity is air pollution AND ground pollution, and both take considerable effor to relieve. Removing a building in CS gets rid of pollution in a very short time. Completely clearing an area in SC and loading it with trees takes years upon years to remove pollution and it's devastating. You have to be very careful with pollution but it's next to inconsequential in CS.

In CS, Tourism consists of the following process: 1. Plop down a unique building 2. There is nothing else to do. Sometimes tourists visit it. They'll drive to the city or they'll come on a train or a plane. They magically manifest pocket cars from nowhere and clog the road a bit (assuming there's even enough to cause a problem) and they go to the building and then they leave. In SimCity, Tourism is its own entire section of the UI. You can gather tourists with stadiums, special buildings, landmarks, etc. You can dedicate parts of your city to tourism. Tourism needs hotels and generates hotels/motels/extravagant resorts based on wealth value. Tourists call for taxis if sufficient public transport doesn't exist. Tourists arrive in huge numbers. Tourists do not count towards an agent limit and they are not limited from entering the city if the number of agents in the city is too high, unlike CS where the limit is 65k and on a sufficiently packed city tourism is completely stalled as no tourist agents can actually exist. Tourists come at set times for events in the stadium, they clog the roads around it and leading to it and you have to plan for that. They stay at the event and it gathers tons of money for the city and then they make their way home and back out of town using your public transport systems or their own cars or taxis. They clog your infrastructure for a pre-planned amount of time at a set time on a set day and you have to deal with the issues that arise from that, and decide if it's worth testing your city's road structure at the risk of losing fire or police or ambulance response times.

In CS, if there's police stations and schools, there's no crime. In SimCity, if people are poor and jobless, thy will turn to crime despite a police presence and despite having an elementary school education, which is much more realistic and fun to deal with. In CS a police car driving by the house once a day is enough to deter crime, in SimCity crime has factors that go into why it is happening that have to be dealt with, which simply don't exist in CS on ANY level, like wealth value. There are no poor in CS. There are no rich. There are no problems associated with either of those as they do not exist.

In CS, to make a special industry, you make any industry, and then tap it to change it to something else. In SimCity, you have to plcae specific buildings to manage the industry, you have to have special processing plants and factories and services. You have to expand the functionality of these buildings. You have to manage things differently for each type of industry. You have to make the industries work together, or you can ismply export. Exporting is tough if you also have to import resources. One special industry usually requires at least one other to function with efficiency, whereas in CS you can plop any of them wherever you please and they subsist on their own without issue. In CS they do transfer goods between each other, and your commercial buildings will be a little upset if there's no generic industry, but not that upst, because without your input they automatically import from ghost cities that do not exist and have an infinite supply of anything you could ever need. In SC resources have to actually exist and make their way to town for things to keep running properly. In CS, if a car can't get somewhere, it magically poofs there. In SC, if a car can't get somewhere, shit goes down.

In CS, the population density is all sorts of screwed up. Small 2 bedroom homes house 8 adults and 3 teens and 4 children and 3 elders. What this means is that a school that SHOULD cover a 3 square mile area can only cover a half a square mile area because every single building in the area has 4-5x as many children as it logically should. In SimCity, if this sort of nonsense was happening (which it doesn't), you'd mitigate this problem with longer bus routes, more busses for the school, and more classrooms. In Cities Skylines your only option is to plop yet another identical school down nearby and call it a day.

In CS, making a university requires the following steps: 1. Place a university. In SimCity, a university is its own building, and then you create special buildings for different types of education like business, government, science...and then those buildings can work on projects to improve the city, give benefits to your special industry, require certain types of students, change hte way the generic industry in teh city functions...and you have to manage housing, including dorms, and nearby housing will even change depending on density to greek sorority/fraternity houses. it's on a whole separate level than CS. CS university system is like putting a cherry on a store bought cupcake, while SimCity's university system is like baking a 3 tier wedding cake from scratch. There's just no comparing the two. SimCity's has so much more depth that it makes your head spin.

In CS, the funding for individual buildings doesn't exist. In Simcity, funding for individual buildings is represented in terms of additional modules. In CS, to make a school have more capacity, you move a slider and it affects EVERY school on the ENTIRE map. In SimCity, to make a school have more capacity, you add another classroom, and it only affects that school and it only affects that school's costs. In CS, to make a police staton have more cars, you move a slider. It affects EVERY staton of EVERY type in the ENTIRE city. In SimCity, you add more squad cars, you add a helicopter platform, you add a better alarm system. It only affects the building you modified and the area that building works for.

In Cities Skylines, the buildings work for the entire city. They don't patrol set areas and will mindlessly wander across the entire map for no reason to "help" on the other side. The effective area doesn't exist, it's meaningless, and it ONLY shows you which houses benefit from happiness from the building. In SimCity, buildings have limits to how far their effects stretch in general, and the scale of operations has actual meaning. You can increase this scale, again, by upgrading the buildings.

In SimCity, as the value of an area goes up, it becomes more expensive to live in. As it becomes more expensive, more educate dpeople with better jobs move in. As they move in, they demand better jobs to keep their income and they will leave or not show up if those jobs don't exist at all. In Cities Skylines any random person will move into literally any area regardless of its land value and regardless of how much money they have (as there are no wealth values) and will complain. They'll gladly move into a nearly flooded area surrounded by abandoned homes and resting on top of severe ground pollution that has no water or power access, and THEN complaina bout those things, rather than NOT MOVING IN TO BEGIN WITH.

In Cities Skylines, recreational facilities consist of parks, parks, parks, some more parks, another type of park, a park, and a couple other parks. In SimCity, recreation includes stadiums, casinos, gardens, plazas, aquariums, skate parks, sports parks, zoos, museums, libraries, theaters...In Cities Skylines, plopping a park instantly makes everyone happy as hell because what else could tehy ever desire for fun besides some trees? In SimCity, a park does make people happy, but they also enjoy shopping and going out on the town. In CS, a park does nothing but provide a circle of happiness. In SimCity, parks lower crime by giving people something to do, they lower air pollution, and they have downsides such as potentially attracting homeless if your wealth levels are not kept in check and you don't have enough jobs and housing (none of these are issues in CS at all).

Need I go on? CS is unbelievably shallow in comparison.
 
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Metropolitan

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But completely ignore the visuals everything else. The things that actually make a video game a video game and not a toy. The things that are inarguably deeper in SC5.
Well, if you like better SimCity 2013 than C:SL, I have a great news for you: you can still play SimCity 2013. So go have fun!

I personally find awckward to qualify as "more advanced" a simulation where people don't come back to the same home they left, kiss a different wife, play with different kids and take another job, but to each their own, if that's your thing, go for it! :)
 
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Gilga

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Simify, I didn't ignored visuals, I simply told you that graphic is not a game mechanic but something that can be improved in any game. What makes, in my opinion, C:S better than Simcitry 2013 is the game mechanics. It is a city builder.

Why, in your opinion, there are still thousand of people playing Simcity 4? Sure not because of the graphics, but simply because Simcity 4 is a "city builder".

C:S is not difficult, i admitted it too in my previous post. Tho, given Simcity 2013 has 0 difficut too, that doesn't change the rest of my opinion: Simcity 2013 has only one way to play, while in C:S you can open your mind, use your imagination (not counting all the modders that make a big portion in the city building community) and try to build many different types of cities. That's city building.

It's up to you if you prefer Simcity 2013. I think different.

EDIT: You posted your wall of text while I was editing my message, Simify. Anyway your arguments are not bad, but you always forget to specify that all the features you are mentioning about Simcity 2013, are still bugged as hell today in 2015. Even in offline mode the game simulation doesn't work right.
There is more variety in buildings, and you are right they are cool, but that is something that can be added by CO and/or modders (I already build lot of different parks to have more different stuff to use).
You spoke about crime and yes, it is similar to simcity 4, where you can see policemens fighting the criminals. And then?
The fact you can play only in one way to Simcity 2013 is real. There is no way to have your mind using some fantasy to build a city.
 
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Simify

Corporal
May 5, 2015
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Simcity 2013 has only one way to play, while in C:S you can open your mind, use your imagination (not counting all the modders that make a big portion in the city building community) and try to build many different types of cities

SC2013 has only one way to play? You don't consider specializing in one of 5 industries, tourism, gambling, or education to count as multiple ways to play? There are multiple types of GENERIC INDUSTRY in SC5 depending on how you choose to handle the more-in-depth-than-any-function-in-CS education system, that's not multiple ways to play...? What multiple ways to play are there in CS? What multiple "types of cities" are there? CS is nothing but roads and zones, there are no variations. Sure, they look different, but it's still just roads and zones and aesthetic variations. Mining industry sure looks different from generic but it doesn't DO anything different, it just looks different.

They're both good games, but come on. Did you even read my long-ass post detailing exactly how almost every function in SC5 is markedly deeper and more varied/customizable than CS?
 
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