If you're not going to give us any patches til the next one is done, at least give us previews

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Simify

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If I announced I was going to bake an apple pie would you expect me to show you pictures of it before I had made it? No you wouldn't. So why do you expect a game developer to behave any differently with a new feature they are developing? "Pics or it didn't happen" isn't a particularly useful argument in the context of computer programming. :)

Probably because they're two totally different situations, and that's an awful metaphor.

They expect updates and information because this cake is:

1. Delaying the release of needed appetizers (bugfixes)

2. Being made despite the fact that the oven only has three functioning burners (lack of features and gameplay heft) and one of them tends to set on fire (bugs/crashes/simulation issues), and they need those burners for the main course (the game)

3. Being made by a baker (developer) who spent the previous 4 months giving constant daily play-by-play information to their customers over the internet on various forums, via an employee (totalymoo) whose entire god damn job is to sit around talking to people about the cakes they make all day

Your cake analogy falls flat, but what you're not understanding is that this cake is being made while we sit at our table in the restaurant for an hour and a half after we're done with our food (and still don't have appetizers) and nobody's coming to the table to tell us what's going on.

You guys also seem to take absolutely everything to the extreme to make arguments look more unreasonable than they actualy are. Nobody's asking for a daily update. Nobody's asking for all information to be revealed.

We just want something. How friggin' hard would it be to tell us how wall to wall buildings work? How they're selected over other buildings? If the means of selecting them will ever be applied t other building styles? Maybe with this update, they're creating a "Style" system and it's retroactive. Maybe with this update we can choose to only use the more american style homes, or the funky finnish modern bullcrap homes, instead of an awkward, hideous blend of both. We don't know, and apparently we'll never know, until the patch is already in the process of downloading. Which is stupid.

A simple dev blog. Like the ones we got constantly before release. A simple little Q+A. Like the ones we got constantly before release. A simple series of offhand comments on small tidbits of information. Like what totalymoo gave us every single day for hours at a time before release.
 
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Kirkegaard

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It seems like you live in a different world than most PC players. In my world 60$ pc games with +100 $ day one DLC are released without really working, then they will do one small patch that fix ½ the issues and start doing more DLC. If one is lucky the games will be more or less fixed after half a year.

So when CS are released in close to perfect state (unless you play on linux), I don't feel like there is reason to complain. The game only have minor issues that in most cases can be worked around quite easily.
 
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slornie

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The ONLY comparison I made to SimCity 4 was about longevity. The devs (and community) want this game to be SC4's successor and last us years upon years. The mention of patching was not "THEY AREN'T PATCHING IT LIKE SIMCITY 4!" and I have no freaking clue where you got that from. The mention of patching is part of the question "how can we have confidence the game will have long term sustainability". The only thing relating to SimCity 4 in that entire sequence of questions is "like simcity 4". Not patching like simcity 4. Longevity like SimCity 4.

The question is not "How can we have confidence in the game if it ins't simcity 4 in 3D?". Let me remove the SC4 part so you can read it again and maybe you'll get it.

How can we have confidence in the game's livelihood and potential as a long-term investment if the devs don't patch it regularly, like they promised they would? Or if they don't fix basic bugs for 3+ months? Or if they release broken patches? Or if they have a beta test of a patch, and then ignore bugs people found during the beta?
I do understand your point. What I was trying to say is that frequent patching or lack thereof doesn't necessarily have any relation to a game's longevity. SimCity 4 had just three patches across the base game and it's expansion and is still well loved and oft-played 12 years later but equally CO could release frequent patches and expansions to their game for another two years and still not achieve that level of longevity.

I don't fully remember the Q/A where frequent patching was mentioned, but I believe it was in the context of adding new content (like the tunnels and wall-to-wall buildings) for free and not just through paid DLC in the same way Paradox has done for some of its other titles. This is frequent patching across a longer timescale rather than promising a "just in time" approach to bug-fixing.

In fact, I think pushing for more frequent patches is actually likely to be more harmful to the game's longevity than a slower and more considered schedule. Take your point about the broken patch which had to be reverted and re-released. If CO try to maintain an artificially high pace for developing and releasing patches we're going to see more unintended bugs or issues crop up, and I think for the average gamer that is far more damaging than not knowing exactly which existing bug or minor inconvenience (like missing custom asset icons) may or may not be fixed in a future patch that hasn't been made yet.

Or if they leave everyone in the dark for a month and a half with a cosmetic patch of unnecessary additions that are prioritized over bug fixes? Or if when doing that, their C E FREAKING O basically calls anyone who wants some information on what they're doing stupid and says they don't care?
Where has anyone said that the additions are being prioritised over fixing bugs? They're being bundled together into one patch, but I don't think anyone has said "we're adding tunnels instead of fixing xyz bug". And I can't see anything in @co_martsu 's recent posts that sounds anything like what you've paraphrased at the end there.


===
On your reply to my other post, I'm not trying to dispute that more information on the patch would be great. I actually asked @TotalyMoo when the announcement was posted if they could do a dev diary on it (and this was his response). But until they've finished implementing it there won't be much for them to show.
 
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AustinPowersFas

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KnightHawkTFC

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*beginning my own rant and wall of text*
--verboseLogging on

I have to say that some in this thread seem to not have a clue as in terms of the challenge or level of plumbing that needs to be added, or worse changed\reworked and retested, in the course of adding tunnels or wall to wall buildings two thing things that are hardly just cosmetic changes. Further more it makes me almost laugh at certain assumptions about the level of investment it may take to fix (in backward compatible ways) particular things, or assumptions some make that certain things are just a "gui" problem, which more than likely are not just "gui" problems at their root. By all means complain about what's broken or what you think is broken, but try and be somewhat careful about making assumptions about what's very easy to fix unless you really do know.

Also when it comes to something like night mode (which I might add I've seen nobody commit to adding), if one is talking about something beyond just literally making it dark out and having models with light sources, ie adding a full daily cycle and adjusting everything to work semi realistically to that new cycle, I don't think there is enough appreciation for the rework that has to take place for that to happen in a meaningful way. The present "time system" if you will, does not seem built with that in mind, actually for the most part it doesn't exist, and it's not the type of feature super easily tacked on after-the-fact. Now that's an assertion\assumption of my own, but it's basis is in actually having looked though a not insignificant amount of the games code to gain some overall picture (and by no means absolute), of how things operate presently.

But yes certainly there are some things wrong with whats in the game already, there are some bugs that never should have made it past Test\QA prior to 1.0, there are a few things that could have been implemented better if they'd know they were going to sell a million copies and have 25k+ items in the workshop in a month. I'd argue if they'd know they were going to sell 1m copies they probably would have pushed the release a couple months knowing it could benefit by some more fit and finish. There are things that seriously need to be added for longer term playability (some of these modders have spent countless hours adding), many of these items are well documented here already and at least some have been acknowledged by CO or PD. Some of these are are quite frustrating, it doesn't make anyone a "troll" for talking about such things unless they're going on insistently about it day in and day out. However, flying off the handle that it's been a mere couple weeks since the last update (apparently doing so even before reading the last update) is a waste of time and emotion and to do so in the matter that at least one poster did in this thread did not speak well to that person's character in my opinion. Particularly given that CO\PD gave a heads up that they would be in a down cycle communications wise for awhile. This isn't new, communications even during the build up to launch (outside the last couple of hype train weeks), had some up cycles and down cycles.

C\O is apparently in heads-down dev mode, if you've ever been there with lots of parts and plumbing moving around, it's usually not advantageous during such a phase to have your CEO or marketing team start putting out every detail of what they're up too, it's time consuming, sometimes puts out inaccuracies, and it risks setting expectations beyond that which can be delivered in a given time frame as things change. They now have on the order of ~1m customers (probably at least 500k more then they ever expected), all with competing interests along with they're own that they have to manage. Now maybe they're not doing as good a job as they could, or maybe their doing the best to balance it all at the present time, I don't know for sure, I'm not in Marina's shoes and don't have the visibility she or CO\PD team members have into the project. As to the small team aspect, no it's not an "excuse" for certain things but rarely has it been used as such by c\o directly when it comes to actual bugs, but more an explanation for decisions of what made it for launch, and what in some cases didn't, that's just reality, and one in most areas they were fully open about prior to release. Now posters use of it here is a another matter and has been varied and I agree in some cases\contexts used as an excuse where it really shouldn't apply so I understand some frustration in that regard.


What I do know though is the last thing I ever wanted was someone in marketing or sales telling our client or customers what was or was not going to make the next build beyond what was absolutely committed too or previously spec'd, or worse speaking about exactly how a particular thing would work internally in the next build when my dev team didn't even know for sure yet exactly how something was going to end up working, or if it would be ready for production at a particular time, or if something would even be "fixed" at all. Now some of that comes from having to manage expectation, some of it is my personal desire to usually under-promise and then over-deliver. But more than that it's because 'things happen' during these periods. You go fix something in X, you realize you break Y, so you go fix Y, and that makes Z work a bit differently than it used too because the system is highly coupled, so you often you have to step back and say "crap, you know we gotta re-think this design a bit and rework how X,Y,Z work, especially if we need to add A now, or B down the road which we never accounted for, or a third-party wants to plug-into C". Oh and maybe A now will have to work slightly differently then we planned or Y is going to work a little differently now under the covers, I'm so glad sales didn't commit to the client exactly how A and Y would work under the covers. That happens all the time even with some of the best "original" designs, needs and requirements change, and designs need to be re-engineered and that of course can add extra week(s) of dev and test time that might not have been in the plan. This one of several reasons why it's quite common for dev's when asked how long something might take they come up with what they actually think and then multiply it by at least 2 or 3 trying to account for the known-unknowns, or the unknown-unknowns that inherently come up.

Something else when it comes to the topic of the small team aspect is worth mentioning as well, with regard to the mention up thread to something like "hey you made a ton of money just throw more developers at the project". *sigh* Now I've probably used this comment or something similar in my life at some point too. But that comment in my opinion can show some ignorance when it comes to software development projects, or even more broadly for that matter, so let me opine for few seconds a little on "throwing more bodies" at something.

Sometimes that's not easily done, as useful as you might think, or even smart when taken too far. To the later part of that, you don't want to grow too fast, every team member you add has impacts and long term costs too, sure you can afford them today, can you afford them though to the next game and revenue cycle? Careful, you don't want to become Maxis 1997 and have to sell your soul because you grew too fast (yes I'm over simplifying). Then there is the time taken up by the interview process, and in any decent company this isn't just "HR" time, it's time out of at least some of the developers days to meet and talk with possible candidates, that's the time itself, some level of prep time and the time it takes to get their heads back into the depths of what they were working on prior such interviews.
That's just standard stuff, so lets just assume for the sake of argument they did decide to throw a couple more experienced dev's to the project along with say a graphic artist (is that term still used?) for helping with production of art assets, or even just brought on people on as contractors for whats needed. These people typically need some ramp-up time before becoming as productive as possible, that doesn't happen overnight, it can take several weeks, both from an actual work-product stand point and an interpersonal\team dynamics standpoint. So if you have a deadline in a couple weeks it may not help you meet that particular one, it might even slow you down temporarily as time is spend bringing others up to speed.

There are also cases where it doesn't actually help to add more cooks to the kitchen, creating issues where too many people trying to change the same parts at the same time, can cause issues that actually slow progress. Then there can be the logistics of it, if they're local do you have desk space for them? If they are working remote are you setup for that, how many timezones are they away from the rest of the team, what impact does that have with everyone staying in sync? My point simply is sometimes yes it's as simple as "throw some more bodies at it", to make something happen faster, if you need to move 1000 bricks from one side of a yard to another by hand more bodies will likely make that take less time, and the effect is immediate. If your trying to add all sort of things to a reasonably complex code base, sometimes it's less useful than it might appear on the surface, or at least it's benefits not as immediately seen. This isn't me saying C\O should or should not add team members, they probably have added a person or two, it's me trying to explain though that even if that is the case it doesn't always translate to faster release cycles so "throwing more bodies at it" may not produce the results one of the posters assumes.

As to the decision, or least perceived decision to add things to the game before fixing\tweaking certain aspects I would ask the following question. If you know you're about to make some semi-fundamental additions and changes to the game how much sense does it make to temporarily patch up a few existing items, test them and put out a release if you know you're just going to have to go back and re-work some of those very same items a bit anyway when you go to make the deeper additions?

Personally I tend to think it's better to just focus on making all the plumbing changes and additions up front, work though through making the existing stuff work with the new and seeing then what still needs fixing and tweaking, and doing so, in the same cycle, so that I don't have to touch and retest things multiple times. If that means pushing a release out a few extra weeks to not have to cause double the work in some spots, then so be it, assuming I have control of the schedule of course and any impact of the delay is minimal.
I don't know for sure if that's the case here, but it I can see the their logic of the decision of it was the case.

TLDR: errr idk, oh nevermind it's all going in one ear and out the other anyway.
GOOD-FAST-CHEAP.jpg
 
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Simify

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I have to say that some in this thread seem to not have a clue as in terms of the challenge or level of plumbing that needs to be added, or worse changed\reworked and retested, in the course of adding tunnels or wall to wall buildings two thing things that are hardly just cosmetic changes.

Of course they take a lot of work. But they're not a necessary aspect of the game. Their pure existence is cosmetic. No, the workings behind them is not cosmetic. But they're totally optional features that the game does not need right now in lieu of or before major bugfixes and simulation overhauls. They're cosmetic. A city can survive now just fine without either of them.

"We don't need these, they are cosmetic" does not mean "We don't need these, and they don't take any effort to make besides models and textures".

adjusting everything to work semi realistically to that new cycle

Literally nobody asks for this. The only people who bring it up are those trying to argue against day/night happening because they don't understand that nothing in the game scales to any common time cycle.

C\O is apparently in heads-down dev mode, if you've ever been there with lots of parts and plumbing moving around, it's usually not advantageous during such a phase to have your CEO or marketing team start putting out every detail of what they're up to

Probably not advantageous for your CEO or marketing team to tell people asking for information "no, never, and we don't care what you want, shut up".

If your trying to add all sort of things to a reasonably complex code base, sometimes it's less useful than it might appear on the surface, or at least it's benefits not as immediately seen.

Like wall to wall buildings and tunnels?

If you know you're about to make some semi-fundamental additions and changes to the game how much sense does it make to temporarily patch up a few existing items, test them and put out a release if you know you're just going to have to go back and re-work some of those very same items a bit anyway when you go to make the deeper additions?

Um...a lot? Are you implying it's easier to fix something like traffic simulation AFTER adding more types of things that traffic simulates on? Are you implying it's easier to fix the way buildings pop up and are categorized AFTER adding more types of buildings to categorize? The bases for these things NEED to be in place BEFORE you put them in the game. What you're arguing is that it makes more sense to make a new type of thing, like tunnels or a new specific type of auto-generated building intended to always be next to the same type, THEN go back and modify the code so that these things work right, instead of forming a base for them. That's ridiculous.
 
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ItalianGuy

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Are you implying it's easier to fix something like traffic simulation AFTER adding more types of things that traffic simulates on? Are you implying it's easier to fix the way buildings pop up and are categorized AFTER adding more types of buildings to categorize? The bases for these things NEED to be in place BEFORE you put them in the game. What you're arguing is that it makes more sense to make a new type of thing, like tunnels or a new specific type of auto-generated building intended to always be next to the same type, THEN go back and modify the code so that these things work right, instead of forming a base for them. That's
He said the same thing actually.
Let's wait until this base is complete and works as intended and maybe they will even post some screenshots before release.
 

Lord Canterbury

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The Great Wall of Text
Picture.

Wow. Clearly I'm not actually going to read any of that. But I commend you heartily for shear voluminousness.
 
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TotalyMoo

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As Letar mentioned, keep it civil.

Tunnels are coming together (and working real nicely, I'll see if we can get a dev diary or something about this), W2W buildings are still in a design phase. We're not giving fix-lists until the patch is ready and QA'd to not set the wrong expectations. Simple as that :)
 
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Greygor69

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Just to add my 2 cents worth.

Comparing the level of information given before launch with a pre-planned marketing campaign and post-launch where the devs are re-acting to issues found after release is somewhat ... what's the word? ...problematic? unrealistic? stupid?

We were told mid-April the next patch would be about a month.

They are taking their time with this because they want it to work, probably in response to the way people jumped down their throats when a previous patch failed and had to be rolled back.

What will be in the patch won't be known until close to the patch release. Four weeks is a very short time scale for programmers, it'd be a really brave coder willing to promise definite solutions at the start of that patch cycle.

I myself have asked if they had a road map for what they are working on and in retrospect they sensibly didn't publish one. If they had then that would have just provided ammunition to critics if there were a couple of items that couldn't be delivered.
 
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TotalyMoo

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I myself have asked if they had a road map for what they are working on and in retrospect they sensibly didn't publish one. If they had then that would have just provided ammunition to critics if there were a couple of items that couldn't be delivered.

Thanks for reading between the lines here, that's pretty spot on. It would also have totally screwed over most of our media-based marketing potential (never give people news to end all news if you want some kind of sensible coverage).
 
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KnightHawkTFC

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@Simify - I can't say I'm surprised that the point was missed on so much. I could draw pictures, but don't think it would help at this point, and I'm a shitty artist anyway.

But at least you brought Moo out from hiding, so there's that.

@ItalianGuy - At least someone understood it.
@Lord Canterbury - I can't blame you, I probably wouldn't have either. ;)
 
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TotalyMoo

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@Simify - I can't say I'm surprised that the point was missed on so much. I could draw pictures, but don't think it would help at this point, and I'm a shitty artist anyway.

But at least you brought Moo out from hiding, so there's that.

@ItalianGuy - At least someone understood it.
@Lord Canterbury - I can't blame you, I probably wouldn't have either. ;)

I'm not in hiding, just busy with other games :) Please keep in mind I'm responsible for all 3rd party titles... and a lot more. I'll be around much more when we're releasing something new, need to spread/gather information or times of high activity.
 
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Simify

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W2W buildings are still in a design phase.

We were told a couple weeks ago that the big patch would come "in a month". So today you're saying that one of the biggest most time consuming parts has not even begun? They're not modeled, they're not implemented, the systems around them are not programmed, the way that the game decides whether or not you're spawning them in certain places does not exist yet? They're still in the design phase? How on earth is this going to be released within a month if you guys have not even started?

So not only did you say "We'll wait until we finish these cosmetic addons to do more bug fixes", but you made that decision without even having these features DESIGNED?!?! The DESIGN PHASE is part of this wait?!

To continue the stupid restaurant/cake analogy

"Your complimentary dessert is on its way! I know your main course was a little iffy and we still haven't solved the appetizers, but don't worry! Cake is coming! We just have to design it first. Then we can start baking it from scratch."

I just don't get it. It drives me nuts to no end that people are apologists over stuff like this. They only do it because people have this weird complex where they only get upset if a company is well known or large. I must repeat again that if this was EA talking, there'd be outrage. But because it's "poor, poor, helpless 13 people colossal order, known only for their traffic simulation games", it's totally okay that their city building game has poor traffic simulation (still waiting for an explanation on that one. Two traffic sims under your belt and your next game has crappy traffic simulation. How is that even. How.) and they're taking a break from making it work to DESIGN NON-ESSENTIAL FEATURES AND IMPLEMENT THEM FROM SCRATCH.

(And we haven't even gotten into how you've prioritized an entirely new matching style of building before addressing concerns about building variety that we've seen since pre-release! Adding a new type doesn't fix the variety and mismatched clusterfuck of the other 9 types!)
 
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TotalyMoo

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You're taking things out of context and doing your best to give whatever we say a negative spin, I can see.

This kind of attitude and aggression is not appreciated, or allowed, on our forums.

Stay civil. This is my final warning.

EDIT: Feel free to argue and have which-ever opinion you want, this is not going to be censored or policed, but if you can't do it in a calm and productive way you're in the wrong forum.
 
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Simify

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Are the following concepts not true?

-This patch is supposed to be here within a month

-The design phase for the most complex and largest feature of the patch is not finished yet

-You are adding a new building type entirely before solving variety problems with the existing types

-The choice to make these things and not release any bug fixes until they're done was made before the design phase started

-Cities Skylines is missing Traffic algorithms and assets that are standard in the Cities in Motion series, and has traffic algorithm bugs that are not present in those titles

I really don't know what I took out of context...
 
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