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DebbieElla

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Stay on topic, stay kinds folks. We welcome constructive critique on this forum, we know that most often complaints about the game comes from fans who want the best for the game and that's perfectly fine. We do not allow personal attacks on devs or other forum members, or being unnecessarily rude. This thread is fine, but borderline, so let's pull it back please.
 

Major Malfunction

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Okay, last time I saw "Don't like it - be silent or leave!" that was at Warhammer online: Reckoning forums. Where people, whoscreamed and begged devs to fix glaring bugs and problems were booed by fanboy mob. They were branded as a "Vocal minority" and spreaders of negativity up to the point where only two out of TWELVE servers left.
And when I returned to see how things are going there were 200 players in total on two servers at peakhours and there were STILL peoplewho said that everything is fine and allthose whodont like how situation is developing should leave and let them play this great game.
Warhammer Online servers were permanently disabled 18.12.2013.
 
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Demetae

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Funnily enough, I believe that the reason why people tend to stick around so long even though they dislike the game is because of Paradox's history of radical reworks. People do not want to believe that they ended up wasting their money. They cling onto the idea that the game could change so that they will like it, because it has happened in the past and may happen again.

Should Martin telepathically whisper, "We will never update the game in such a way that you shall enjoy it. Yes, I am prescient and psionically ascendant," into the minds of those who are unhappy, I assure you that the forums would become much more pleasant overnight. Then and only then would the idea that things could change die. There is no more reason to stay.

Until then, people will dare to hope, and express such hope through a variety of ways, be it vitriolic or not. Will vitriol help that hope manifest? Probably not. It will occur all the same. Will pointing out that vitriol deters devs from even entering the forums help people reflect and become more cordial? Also probably not. If anything, it will likely rile people up and make the situation worse. And yet here we are.

We must simply wait until Wiz is interred in The Golden Throne or the human propensity to dream of better tomorrows is at last stamped out before the discourse becomes more tame.

I suspect we may end up waiting for some time, however.
 
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I just saw this thread but wanted to throw my two cents in.
I am in the camp of generally more positive than negative opinions of Vic3. That being said, I have plenty of complaints, as do most of the people here. I think there is a way to contribute to constructive discussions about game mechanics, cause lord knows certain mechanics need it. I've seen a lot of that here, and that's great.
What is NOT great is some of the other energy I have seen. For example, I've seen a relatively positive thread, where people were expressing their delight at the new beta, only for someone else to chime in just to say essentially 'Must be nice for you, I think the game still sucks'-and that's just a crappy thing to do. Threads are supposed to stay relatively on topic, first of all. And if someone's enjoying the game, maybe that's not the exact right place here for you to air out your grievances and say that this game will soon be abandoned.
On the other hand, what's also crappy and immature is people resorting to rabid defenses of the game for one reason or another. I get some of where that's coming from-I have also had fears this game might not pick up enough steam, most of which have largely been abated in the last two months. But not every critique means the game is going to be confined to the dustbin of PDX games. We all have seen PDX's track record with how releases, patches, and DLC go. Even with other unmentionable titles, they didn't just throw in the towel in a matter of months. People in this camp are advised to chill just as much.
I will agree that as of late there's been a lot of animosity, which by itself is fine, but I think as humans we should all just learn to perhaps relax and channel it in a way that doesn't just create more unproductive conflict. Some people were disappointed-I am too, at some aspects. But at the end of the day, most people here aren't going to change their opinions on Vic3, or about which game in the series is better, or if they like mechanics or not. So the best we can do is just debate and suggest improvements when appropriate and try not to be vindictive towards those that disagree with us. As I said earlier, parts of this forum have gotten kind of unpleasant. It is the internet, after all, but let's all just try and be a bit more tempered and thoughtful sharing what we think?
 
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Sanvone

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Okay, last time I saw "Don't like it - be silent or leave!" that was at Warhammer online: Reckoning forums. Where people, whoscreamed and begged devs to fix glaring bugs and problems were booed by fanboy mob. They were branded as a "Vocal minority" and spreaders of negativity up to the point where only two out of TWELVE servers left.
And when I returned to see how things are going there were 200 players in total on two servers at peakhours and there were STILL peoplewho said that everything is fine and allthose whodont like how situation is developing should leave and let them play this great game.
Warhammer Online servers were permanently disabled 18.12.2013.
Didn't know about forum situations but WHO:AoR had also other issues. Over ambitious oRvR map design (whoever thought that, it is fine to design whole zone with chokepoint few character models wide, in which few thousand players will have to push through; was not blessed with foresight) leading to poor performance on engine that was already not as well polished as main competition. Not exactly mirror-like balance also hurt (the game went from dominance of Witch Elves + Witch Hunters to nerfing them and thus Bright Wizards/Sorceress overpopulation - previously kept in check by stealth classes) Also EA graciously, was siphoning away devs from project for it's own MMO (Star Wars), which definetely helped content draught. First update/expansion added missing classes, then we got something that looked like half an expansion (Land of Dead) and by the time last content (Skaven) arrived the game was already in terminal state. Also funnily all those were PvE additions for... PvP mainly game.

So to be fair, it seems that no matter what kind of degeneracy forums devolved into WH never had chance with it's circumstances. And here we have PDX, who actually delivers content regularly and far more meaty that whatever Mythic Enterteinment was. That said their hype campaign was a thing to behold.
 
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Should Martin telepathically whisper, "We will never update the game in such a way that you shall enjoy it. Yes, I am prescient and psionically ascendant," into the minds of those who are unhappy, I assure you that the forums would become much more pleasant overnight. Then and only then would the idea that things could change die. There is no more reason to stay.
You must be new to the internet... Initially that would most likely trigger a much more "toxic" environment. But that's just my experience based on 25+ years using the internet.

Will pointing out that vitriol deters devs from even entering the forums help people reflect and become more cordial?
I have always found that article (and its sources) to be a bad look for Paradox, but I rarely visit the HoI4 forums which seems to have been the initial trigger for it. The most effective way to fill the forums with positive feedback would be to release products they can be reasonably certain the vast majority of customers will be satisfied with. Nothing anyone ever says can convince me that was the case with releases such as Imperator and EU4 Leviathan (which is referenced in that article).

The dev diary referenced in that article was published the day after the release of an EU4 DLC featuring placeholder art and a brand new undocumented save file corruption mechanic (among other issues). The article is referring to some of the feedback to that DLC, feedback which in some cases went way too far and got way too personal. In my opinion it would at that point in time have been better to simply ban those going over the line and move on, and if it had been a long lasting issue in the HoI forums, delay that part of the dev diary a few weeks until the Leviathan disaster had been resolved. Publicly bashing customer behaviour while at the same time selling a completely broken product is never going to be an effective response in my opinion.

The problems with Vic 3 as a game does in some ways seem to be less severe/glaring than for example at the EU4 Leviathan release, even if the issues in my opinion appears to have the same cause: a product that released far too early. I would say that the difference in quality between Imperator/Leviathan and Vic 3 is also reflected by the tone of the most harsh criticism. For Vic 3 it is nowhere near as bad as we saw after those releases (unless it's somehow being removed quicker than spam/ads).

As Demetae seems to be yet another poster in this thread with less than a handful of posts since Vic 3 release who have an issue with people's behaviour towards the devs on the forums I'll repeat myself: Why not do something to improve things to your liking yourself rather than complaining about what other people does? Why not provide the devs with more of those posts which will make it worthwhile for the devs to visit the forums?

And here we have PDX, who actually delivers content regularly and far more meaty that whatever Mythic Enterteinment was.
It doesn't matter how good or bad the content other companies releases are. The core of the issue is that a lot of people aren't happy with the quality of the content Paradox released. Paradox has been selling significantly more games in recent years, and as a general rule, more unhappy customers will generate more negative feedback. More happy customers will generate more positive feedback.

More negative feedback on the Paradox forums is a logical result of their growth over the past 10-15 years. The lack of increase in positive feedback is in my opinion something both Paradox and forum users should be much more worried about. It is also something that should be possible to do something about, but it will most likely cost money (for Paradox) and effort (from both forum users and Paradox).
 
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Demetae

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As Demetae seems to be yet another poster in this thread with less than a handful of posts since Vic 3 release who have an issue with people's behaviour towards the devs on the forums I'll repeat myself: Why not do something to improve things to your liking yourself rather than complaining about what other people does? Why not provide the devs with more of those posts which will make it worthwhile for the devs to visit the forums?
I think you misunderstand. I am not complaining about what other people say about the devs. I was merely sharing a pet theory of mine, in a post filled with obvious absurdities mind you, as to why people behave as they do and why such behavior is unlikely to change. No more, no less.
 

Sanvone

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It doesn't matter how good or bad the content other companies releases are. The core of the issue is that a lot of people aren't happy with the quality of the content Paradox released. Paradox has been selling significantly more games in recent years, and as a general rule, more unhappy customers will generate more negative feedback. More happy customers will generate more positive feedback.

More negative feedback on the Paradox forums is a logical result of their growth over the past 10-15 years. The lack of increase in positive feedback is in my opinion something both Paradox and forum users should be much more worried about. It is also something that should be possible to do something about, but it will most likely cost money (for Paradox) and effort (from both forum users and Paradox).
Someone compared PDX to Mythic Entertainment/EA Mythic, so I offered some insight/history. It just didn't seem to be a fair comparison nor constructive one. Also let's not forget that internet landscape changed over last decade with advent of reddit. I'm tend to believe reddit has more positive vibe, as it is more of hands-free experience (people will see related pdx topics in their feed while looking for 1000 other things, while this forum requires more direct intent to interact with). Thus forums keep changing in direction of more hardcore/critical audience. Also there is generational shift - numbers aren't bad for currently playing people. So chances are that people like you or me, not happy with direction of changes in product might just be phased out. Also the world and people approach to digital product evolved across years (because of plethora of options): good things are expected, bad things are much less tolerated.

While not everything PDX does garners my approval, they keep delivering and knock out from time to time again "lighting in the bottle" DLC like Utopia for Stellaris or Old Gods for CK2. I think both Vicky3 and CK3 need that kind of hit to pacify the community (so we can trust them that they know what they are doing and just be patient).
 
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Traslogan

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People who don't like Vicky 3 are still posting about it because of what it could have been. Vicky 3 is more like an experimental spinoff than a direct sequel to Victoria 2, the warfare system looks like Paradox just ran out of time and had to run with the "warfare isn't important" narrative (Which is genuinely hilarious given this time period should have the first world war in it).

People who were waiting years upon years for this don't just suddenly have no energy for the IP or personal investment in where it goes from here. If the haters leave, the already dwindling Vicky 3 just gets even smaller.
 
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Traslogan

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I mean, warfare didn't really define Vic2 in my opinion...
Did it define it, perhaps not. But it still respected its importance in the time period. This is a time period where there's supposed to be two opium wars, the Crimean war, the Brothers war of Austria and Prussia, the Franco-Prussian war, the two Boer wars, multiple invasions of Afghanistan, the Spanish-American war, the first Sino-Japanese war, the Russian-Japanese war, and of course the great war. Vicky 3 can barely even get a single Opium war to function and forgets entirely about most of the list.

In vicky 2 you could actually stockpile goods for wartime, but in vicky 3 you either produce enough every day or you're screwed. There's no such thing as a high-quality army as there's no army composition at all, just a few drop-downs to ensure you stay up-to-date. We don't even get budget sliders now to fine-tune our spending.


I will call it here and now, one of the promised DLCs from the Grand Edition will be warfare focused and Paradox will do what they always do where there are certain DLCs that are considered mandatory to have a competent gameplay experience in the long run.
 
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Major Malfunction

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Didn't know about forum situations but WHO:AoR had also other issues. Over ambitious oRvR map design (whoever thought that, it is fine to design whole zone with chokepoint few character models wide, in which few thousand players will have to push through; was not blessed with foresight) leading to poor performance on engine that was already not as well polished as main competition. Not exactly mirror-like balance also hurt (the game went from dominance of Witch Elves + Witch Hunters to nerfing them and thus Bright Wizards/Sorceress overpopulation - previously kept in check by stealth classes) Also EA graciously, was siphoning away devs from project for it's own MMO (Star Wars), which definetely helped content draught. First update/expansion added missing classes, then we got something that looked like half an expansion (Land of Dead) and by the time last content (Skaven) arrived the game was already in terminal state. Also funnily all those were PvE additions for... PvP mainly game.

So to be fair, it seems that no matter what kind of degeneracy forums devolved into WH never had chance with it's circumstances. And here we have PDX, who actually delivers content regularly and far more meaty that whatever Mythic Enterteinment was. That said their hype campaign was a thing to behold.
The first month was abysmal. Stuttering and complete absense of developer feedback at the forums or anywhere else. Devs were absent.
Stuttering, glaring class disbalance,skill disbalance etc. and every time it was addresed at the forums there were a mob of "don't like it - go away" types. Even iа devs realized their problems nothing were solved and most people never resumed their subscription.
This torrent of "kick everyone who don't like your game" attitude ensured athmosplhere where ALL criticism - both valid and invalid - were shunned and silenced.
Should PDX tolerate such appoach here we would never see performance fixed for Stellaris or Victoria 3 would keepi ts dumbed down and degenerate warfare system forever.
 
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Star Seeker

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But it still respected its importance in the time period
I would argue not. It might fit the beginning of the timeframe and arguably WW1 because of how width worked, but I personally don't think it simulated well some of those wars you listed.

We don't even get budget sliders now to fine-tune our spending.
Good. sliders were unnecessary.

I will call it here and now, one of the promised DLCs from the Grand Edition will be warfare focused and Paradox will do what they always do where there are certain DLCs that are considered mandatory to have a competent gameplay experience in the long run.
Something like this is actually really unlikely. The worst version of something like this that could realistically happen is them adding more to warfare for free in an patch, but put some flavour or minor mechanic in an expasion, like with how NSB for HoI4 handled the new supply system.

I'm not much familiar with EU4's development, but from what I heard, PDX tried something like this with an expansion called Art of War, but that ended up being a bad decision development wise because they then had to deal with two systems depending on what DLC the player had. I think they ended up reversing this decision later on. HoI4 actually did something similar with general traits in either NSB or BBA.
 
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Vicky 3 is more like an experimental spinoff than a direct sequel to Victoria 2,

I will never stop saying this: Victoria 2 changed JUST AS MUCH frim Victoria. The games play very dissimilarly, including and especially how Vicky 2 cut out Victoria's primary game mechanic and automated it.

So the whole series is nothing but spinoffs, if that were so.

It's almost as if making an economic and political simulator is much less well-trodden ground than yet another grand strategy where blobbing is the main/only means of gameplay.
 
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Exactly. With fundamental basis of a strategy game - warfare mechanics- were reduced to a mobile-game popamole. Dumbed down beyond any recognition, deefunct on release, untested. No matter how many "tweaks and improvement" devs will strap on already existing systems(which were, too,untested and not working at release), V3 will remain a fread child in the attic until warfare will se a complete overhaul on the levelof FTL and pop rework for Stellaris or at least westernization\institutions in EUIV.
Except of course there are those of us who enjoy a non-warfare focused Paradox game where we can play tall rather than wide. I get that there are those who want to play a war focused game in the Victorian era, but that doesn't mean everyone does. I'm happy to got to HOI4 for my PDS warfare fix and EU4 for map painting. And personally, if I want WWI wargaming, I play Commander: The Great War (really good game btw).

But there aren't many games that cater to a non-war focused grand strategy, so I personally am happy they took Vicky 3 ina different direction.
 
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Except of course there are those of us who enjoy a non-warfare focused Paradox game where we can play tall rather than wide
Well, there is not much of your kind it seems
Victoria 3 is green.
2z6EyP.jpeg
ncxnCBq.png
 
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Well, there is not much of your kind it seems
Victoria 3 is green.
2z6EyP.jpeg
ncxnCBq.png
Well two thirds like it, one third don't. I suspect most of those who don't like it were expecting something different. Victoria 2 reloaded, or EU4 1800 perhaps.
 
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the devs deliberately changed as many things as possible, because they believe that every PDS game needs to have its own niche, and not just be "The X era grand strategy game".
This is what frustrates me the most. After I played Victoria 2, I thought it was obvious that every Paradox GSG from then on should have mechanics like POPs, militancy, consciousness and autonomous private sector economy, because they elegantly solved almost all issues GSGs had with senless blobbing and being a omnipotent dictator of your country. They didn't do so perfectly, but I said to myself that this was just the initial version of these mechanics and they would get more refined in time. Victoria 2 wasn't some kind of ultra-complex economy simulator - it was a sequel to EU3, but with the added Chemical X of the above mentioned mechanics, which truly made the genre work.

Apparently Paradox didn't think so, because they they kept these mechanics boxed in the Victoria series (except Stellaris, but Wiz-era Stellaris is basicaly just a patient zero for everything wrong with Vic 3).
 
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