If you are not aiming for world conquest, ADMIN or ECO as the first idea ?

[jonjowett]

So you purposefully tank all of your tech - spend ADM on ideas/cores and DIP/MIL on forcing renaissance? Interesting. I might have to try that and see how it goes. Don't you have problems with the fact you have lower military tech than your neighbours? What's the world tech level when you finally buy admin tech 6?

I'm not saying that Espionage is always optimal as a first pick. Of course it's not. But it can be useful in some situations, so you should always think about it before rejecting it.

I feel that spending 800 ADM on the first two admin ideas at tech 5 slows you down a lot. If you're surrounded by aggressive neighbours, this can be fatal (they get bigger, you don't). I think it's better to spend that ADM on 89dev of state cores or 178dev of territories. At tech 7, 20 years later, you're 2x or 3x bigger and are probably truced with all of your neighbours - good opportunity to get the first two administrative ideas.

Picking MIL ideas first is also probably a mistake - unless I'm missing a strategy for dealing with being 1-2 techs behind your neighbours.

So, I would usually suggest some kind of DIP idea group as a first pick. As someone said above, Exploration is the best choice if you have worthwhile colonisation targets - especially if you head straight for the New World and make Colonialism spawn in your country.

That said, I'm not the greatest or most aggressive player - I usually give up on a run when it gets boring (too easy) and, even then, I'm usually heading for only 50-75% of a WC by 1820.

 

[Sfan]

I prioritize being on par on mil, unless it's mil 10/17 (both of these are pretty much useless as they only boost cavalry), or I'm certain I won't go to war. However I rate pretty much everything above admin and diplomatic techs (except Dip 9, Dip 23, Admin 17 and Admin 23), because you save up monarch points thanks to catch up mechanics if you intentionally fall behind.

I don't delay coring and expanding, I just delay teching Admin until I finished admin ideas, because then I pay about 30% less for my techs (between admin group and neighbor bonus). And as I usually start with Admin, Influence and Religious in any order, I end up with this kind of situation:

*
That's usually the moment in the game where I catch up in institution and have completed the 3 key idea groups for WC or at least fast expansion. As you can see I hit Miltech on time pretty much all the game, but I ignored the other ones to focus on ideas, developping for institutions, coring/annexing. The reasoning is simple:
- You need to develop for institutions if you want not to fall harder behind, so you need to use some points and it's important to be on time on miltech, so it has to be mostly admin and dip if you lack mil points.
- The only valuable admin techs before admin efficiency are the ones which unlock new idea groups, but here the fourth idea group at tech 14 is not a priority because: either it's a military group but I can't afford it because I use my milpoints to be on time on miltech and to develop for institutions, or it's diplomatic but I can't really afford it yet or else I could not develop for institutions (if I remember correcly I mostly used Dip points to develop Printing Press in that run) or integrate vassals for absolutism (I finished 2 vassals in 1620 to power up absolutism).
- By falling behind, I get massive reductions because I have more admin ideas, neighbor bonus, and Spy network bonus after Dip9. Overall I spend less admin points. I tech Admin for only 120 points.

That's the consequence, I'm on time for Admin 17 which is the only one that really matters. I took diplomatic as fourth idea group, I am intentionally falling behind in Diplomatic to save points as I did with Admin and Admin idea group, and I will get Diplomatic 23 only one year late even if I integrated many vassals (to max absolutism as early as possible) and took 2 diplomatic idea groups.
Theoretically, the perfect thing is to be stuck at Admin 10 and Dip 9, and to hit Admin 17 and Dip 23 on time. I could have expanded more and fueled that expansion by more catchup on Dip Tech, or at least not have taken Dip 14 between the two screenshots (that was a mistake in terms of monarch points, but greed took over and I wanted the manufactories, but ducats are less important so I wouldn't do it again) but that's impossible to have an absolutely perfect scenario where you minmax every monarch point, and I'm quite happy with that one which is why I often use it as an example.

That's a parenthesis about what I was mentioning, but just ignore that if you don't need it. That's tricky, that requires timing, that's counterintuitive, and that may be risky. But that's needed to OneTag as a ROTW OPM (which I always fail to do even if I get closer and closer, and better players might have better ways of doing it, but that's how I go from 4 dev to several thousands and develop the first 3 institutions without falling behind on the important techs). The only downside is corruption, and that's just money. If money is a limiting factor in your games you can't do a WC anyway so forget about this strat. I say all of that without any judgement, we can't all spend several thousand of hours theorycrafting the game.

 

[jonjowett]

I haven't played England for ages. So, from memory: if you've successfully navigated the early horrors (Lollards, Surrender of Maine and English Civil War); eaten Ireland; vassalised Scotland; and conquered part of France and/or Netherlands... well, I doubt you have many surplus admin points.

If you have the admin points, then administrative or economic ideas seem like a solid pick - as mentioned already.

I can see an argument for first-picking Exploration:
--- You don't want (or can't afford) to take an admin idea group.
--- Removing Terra Incognita takes time and you can explore a lot before you hit tech 7. I'm not sure, but it may be possible to reveal parts of mainland N America at tech 5 or 6 if you have +40% colonial range (Navigator advisor + idea #3)?
--- Once you get dip tech 7, you can colonise almost immediately. You'll probably make the first colonial nation, and you've got good odds of getting the centre of Colonialism.

Aside: Can you reach Greenland from Ireland/Scotland before tech 7 if you have a Navigator advisor and exploration idea #3?

 

[Sfan]

Yes you can reach Greenland, but I'd rather wait for Tech 7 and go directly into valuable provinces. From my experience, the time it takes to finish Greeland is about what it takes to get Dip 7.

 

[jonjowett]

That's tricky, that requires timing, that's counterintuitive, and that may be risky. But that's needed to OneTag as a ROTW OPM.

All I can say is - wow. That's far more extreme than anything I imagined. Don't you have corruption problems with that level of unbalanced tech?

 

[Sfan]

All credit goes to atwix to be honest. I would never have thought about that if I had not seen his Jangladesh One Tag on Very Hard where he stayed on Diplomatic Tech 4 until the 17th century.

Corruption is not that impactful. I don't remember, but I think I payed like 5 ducats every month to root it. That may seem like a lot, but if you can't afford 5 ducats per month to save up monarch points, you're probably not going to make it anyway.

 

[Laurent1944]

In early game, I will almost always pick a diplo idea group. Because mil points are for more useful picking up mil techs and general, and admin tech is mandatory to raise stability and core, while you can have claims usually early just by following missions given by the game. Also if you're not going for colonization, you can accept to be late in diplo tech.

So far I have mostly played games where colonization was important, so I chosed Exploration.

In other games, I will chose first Diplomacy or less often Trade. Both have immediate effects in the two-three first ides (enabling you to unlock first National Idea). Influence is IMHO the best idea group of this group but I found it less useful at start, and so I will rather pick it up in 3rd position or later.

 

[Rainbow Mirage]

Tbh if that's to play tall and be a MR, you don't really need mercs (because you won't burn your manpower pool), and if you want mercs you're better taking admin or quantity to decrease their cost (which is why they're the superior groups for WC, where you need mercs).
Economic/Trade would be more to roleplay a viable tall play, because well, there is a massive issue with tall play in EU4, and it's never viable. Which doesn't mean that one shouldn't roleplay a merchant republic and do as if it was viable.

For cheaper mercs i'd take both economic and admin along with defensive and quantity. Land maintenance stacking can be fun.

Now give me one situation where Espionage is the right choice. You can take it for the lol, you're free, but if we talk about optimal situation, when is it better than any other idea group in the game, except Maritime if you're landlocked.

Ironically, the nations that benefit from espionage the most are hordes for the +20% cavalry combat ability policy. Aside from a few exceptions like PLC.

 

[makaramus]

espionage is a good idea group if you are building trade companies alot.. you can simply fabricate claims faster in trade companies and conquer those areas faster. also if you are a country that small but colonizing its good too
for last... its great for manchu qing. lower liberty desire for tributaries + free corruption riddance that you gained for banners.
especially when think you can colonize as qing (wich is pretty strong... you can make tribes your tributary to protect them from europeans )

also as others said combined with noble idea group cav combat abilty is huge

 

[holyvigil]

You could calculate out how much admin points you would save based on how much you wanted to conquer.

800 admin points to save a quarter on all conquests. The French and British region excluding England has around 900 dev. So that would equal out to be around 9000 Admin points cost So if you planned on straight up conquering all that before admin efficiency and then play tall and take nothing else it would save you about 2250 admin and would save you quite a bit. But if you planned on just conquering Europe the savings are even better.

 

[I_am_Nemo]

The big argument I can see for econ is if you're a RoTW start and you're going to be developing every institution up until global trade, as it's a nice savings on the development. It also contributes nicely if you're disc stacking on your military - not by any means the most effective way to go in sp, but it's there. (And so much fun). You can always take it later, but if you're going to take it at some point, I'd say you get the most use out of it as a first/second idea group (and thus first admin group). Having more money also help you get to top level advisers sooner, which means more MP down the line.

Granted, if you're blobbing out a lot, especially early, you still probably come out ahead with admin ideas as admin is your major limiter. But I think it can be a strong contender in that sort of situation, and definitely can make your opening years easier by giving you that ducat boost.

As far as a first idea group, I like to not take an admin group first, just so I can get to admin 7 faster and unlock the next idea group - overall goal being to push out NIs faster. Diplo/Influence would be the general go to groups, with a few exceptions ( Tabarestan > Persia can make nice use out of trade ideas, imo).

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

Admin also provides cheaper mercs, reduced tech cost, more states, and less interest on loans. It is a quality Idea group even without the RCC.

 

[Runite Drill]

If you're playing in and around the HRE, diplomatic can be a good choice. Especially if you are vying for Emporer.

 

[qwertzuiop]

The big argument I can see for econ is if you're a RoTW start and you're going to be developing every institution up until global trade, as it's a nice savings on the development. It also contributes nicely if you're disc stacking on your military - not by any means the most effective way to go in sp, but it's there. (And so much fun). You can always take it later, but if you're going to take it at some point, I'd say you get the most use out of it as a first/second idea group (and thus first admin group). Having more money also help you get to top level advisers sooner, which means more MP down the line.

Granted, if you're blobbing out a lot, especially early, you still probably come out ahead with admin ideas as admin is your major limiter. But I think it can be a strong contender in that sort of situation, and definitely can make your opening years easier by giving you that ducat boost.

I agree, that's exactly the kind of situation where I would consider taking Economic early on. In my opinion it is even more viable for countries that initially have a very easy game in terms of religion because it means that you can essentially ignore Religious and Humanist for the time being and simply pick Economic/Administrative as your first admin groups.

For example, as a Sunni country around the Zanzibar node, you will only encounter other Sunnis and easily convertible Pagans early on. It is also a region where you will have to develop for institutions, it is rich and the inflation reduction helps with the gold mines (I mean, inflation is not really a problem and I wouldn't ever pick an idea group just to tackle inflation, but if I'm considering taking Economic anyway then it's a nice additional benefit).

 

[BaronNoir]

I'm going to try ADMIN, I guess. My dilemna is always finding what to do in early game.

(I tend, perhaps stupidly, to get London to 30 DEV as fast as possible to avoid getting behind tech, by dumping MIL and DIPLO)

 

[Sfan]

I agree, that's exactly the kind of situation where I would consider taking Economic early on. In my opinion it is even more viable for countries that initially have a very easy game in terms of religion because it means that you can essentially ignore Religious and Humanist for the time being and simply pick Economic/Administrative as your first admin groups.

For example, as a Sunni country around the Zanzibar node, you will only encounter other Sunnis and easily convertible Pagans early on. It is also a region where you will have to develop for institutions, it is rich and the inflation reduction helps with the gold mines (I mean, inflation is not really a problem and I wouldn't ever pick an idea group just to tackle inflation, but if I'm considering taking Economic anyway then it's a nice additional benefit).

I guess that depends what you call early game, but not having religious to deal with Coptic provinces seems like shooting yourself in the foot, and you'll definitely hold Coptic provinces before your fifth idea group unless you're doing something really weird with your Zanzibar game. There is a reason why any game that's played reasonably and without RPing tends to always have Admin and Religious. Playing without them is really playing with weights even if you can play with weights.

 

[BaronNoir]

I guess that depends what you call early game, but not having religious to deal with Coptic provinces seems like shooting yourself in the foot, and you'll definitely hold Coptic provinces before your fifth idea group unless you're doing something really weird with your Zanzibar game. There is a reason why any game that's played reasonably and without RPing tends to always have Admin and Religious. Playing without them is really playing with weights even if you can play with weights.

The game vary immensely according to your region. Dai Viet and Korea do not really need religious at all (hello, gorgeous Confucianism !), Europeans going colonial can trade region (or so I have been told), Natives Americans get two missionaries

(I ''trick'' the game by keeping one ''spare'' state and converting a territory to state without coring. But I can pull out the religious edict...

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

I'm going to try ADMIN, I guess. My dilemna is always finding what to do in early game.

(I tend, perhaps stupidly, to get London to 30 DEV as fast as possible to avoid getting behind tech, by dumping MIL and DIPLO)

I assume you're developing to 30 to get the age bonus? If you must do that wait until the renaissance spawns.

The English early game is quite eventful IIRC. Between the hundred years war, the war of the roses, the lolards, eating/vassalizing the Irish minors, and dealing with Scotland your time should be fairly well occupied until you can start colonizing. It's been a while since I played England, maybe it goes quicker than I think

 

[BaronNoir]

That might be cheap, but considering it's pure luck, I start with England until Margaret of Anjou pop before Civil War.

 

[True_Heir_of_Rome]

It might be, but who cares. I think most everyone has restarted at some point for the right set of rivals or something else of that nature.

I always preferred to get the War of the Roses out of the way so it didn't bite me later, but I can confidently say that's not an optimal strategy. England is weakest at the game start and if you can get rid of the 0/0/0 king you're heading in the right direction.