I know I'm supposed to take ADMIN, but ducats are sometime hard to come by in the first years
If you are not aiming for world conquest, ADMIN or ECO as the first idea ?
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Well there are so many factors... Who are you playing, what's the situation, what are your goals?
Admin is considered superior for any wide play, not for WC only, but not always mandatory first. Religious is often good. Economic is viable for tall play and if you're a beginner and have troubles with the economy. Trade can be interesting for certain nations and tall play. A military idea first can be good for certain starts, especially defensive or quantity if you want to punch above your weight very early. Exploration is useful first if you want to colonize. Pretty much everything can be picked for RP purpose.
Admin is considered superior for any wide play, not for WC only, but not always mandatory first. Religious is often good. Economic is viable for tall play and if you're a beginner and have troubles with the economy. Trade can be interesting for certain nations and tall play. A military idea first can be good for certain starts, especially defensive or quantity if you want to punch above your weight very early. Exploration is useful first if you want to colonize. Pretty much everything can be picked for RP purpose.
Depends fully on your goal: Exploration could be taken first for several countries, but Economic could be interesting for a merchant republic, that will then use money to hire mercenaries and has not to expand too much due to size limitation.
Tbh if that's to play tall and be a MR, you don't really need mercs (because you won't burn your manpower pool), and if you want mercs you're better taking admin or quantity to decrease their cost (which is why they're the superior groups for WC, where you need mercs).
Economic/Trade would be more to roleplay a viable tall play, because well, there is a massive issue with tall play in EU4, and it's never viable. Which doesn't mean that one shouldn't roleplay a merchant republic and do as if it was viable.
Economic/Trade would be more to roleplay a viable tall play, because well, there is a massive issue with tall play in EU4, and it's never viable. Which doesn't mean that one shouldn't roleplay a merchant republic and do as if it was viable.
My ''big games'' are almost always with England (where ''exploration'' is not a viable first idea, IMO, since it take 30 years to be in range of something colonizable) and/or Dai Viet/Korea/Inca (in that order after a patch)
With England, even if you don't WC or expand a lot, I still think Admin first is viable because you will expand at least a bit unless you decide to totally ignore the continent and to sell your French holdings. Admin-Explo-Diplomatic/Influence could be a nice starter for England if you plan to at least control the English Channel and the North Sea, and possibly Aquitaine, Lubeck and Champagne as well.
For Inca, exploration first is massively superior to anything else.
As for Dai Viet that depends on the playstyle. Many possibilities. Admin first to unify your region, Economic if you want, Defensive or quantity early on to get Mandate from Ming, Religious because you're alone in your religion.
Korea can take Economic first if you stay in the shadow of Ming and don't expand a lot, or Admin first if you want to eat the Hordes.
For Inca, exploration first is massively superior to anything else.
As for Dai Viet that depends on the playstyle. Many possibilities. Admin first to unify your region, Economic if you want, Defensive or quantity early on to get Mandate from Ming, Religious because you're alone in your religion.
Korea can take Economic first if you stay in the shadow of Ming and don't expand a lot, or Admin first if you want to eat the Hordes.
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It's very situational - and the answer could well be "neither".
The most important question is: which type of MP are you going to have in excess for the next 10-20 years (until the next idea group is unlocked)? If you can't afford to buy the ideas, unlocking the group is pointless.
If you're small or medium and conquering normally, you might want to take admin 2nd or 3rd (when you can afford better advisors). Remember, you also need admin to unlock more idea groups.
If your ruler has unbalanced stats (eg. 5/3/1), you might have difficulty keeping up in important tech. (Falling behind in mil is generally a very bad idea.)
Then there are future goals: Do you want to colonise, and can you afford it? Do you need a specific idea group to pass a decision (eg. reform horde)?
If you have a massive excess of admin points (which is unlikely), I would always choose an admin idea and they're nearly all good:
--- Administrative - If you're generating many more admin points than you'll ever need for coring.
--- Economic - If you have a lot of gold mines.
--- Humanist - If you are conquering heretics/heathens and can easily get to +2 heretic/heathen tolerance. Makes later idea groups cheaper.
--- Religious - If you have low religious unity and humanism won't fix it (or maybe if you just really want the Deus Vult CB).
--- Expansion - For colonising in revealed provinces (eg. if your capital is in SE Asia).
If you're going to be short on admin, my next choices would be:
--- Exploration - For colonising in terra incognita.
--- Aristocratic - Interesting all-round idea set if you have too many mil points in the early game.
--- Quality - The first ideas can be decisive against an otherwise-equally-matched opponent.
Other interesting options:
--- Espionage - If you can't plan who you're going to go to war with, so you want claims on everyone just in case. Nice synergy with the age of discovery power that allows adjacent claims.
--- Influence - If you need to integrate vassals.
--- Plutocratic - Maybe? I vaguely remember that it's good but I haven't started as a republic in recent patches.
The most important question is: which type of MP are you going to have in excess for the next 10-20 years (until the next idea group is unlocked)? If you can't afford to buy the ideas, unlocking the group is pointless.
If you're small or medium and conquering normally, you might want to take admin 2nd or 3rd (when you can afford better advisors). Remember, you also need admin to unlock more idea groups.
If your ruler has unbalanced stats (eg. 5/3/1), you might have difficulty keeping up in important tech. (Falling behind in mil is generally a very bad idea.)
Then there are future goals: Do you want to colonise, and can you afford it? Do you need a specific idea group to pass a decision (eg. reform horde)?
If you have a massive excess of admin points (which is unlikely), I would always choose an admin idea and they're nearly all good:
--- Administrative - If you're generating many more admin points than you'll ever need for coring.
--- Economic - If you have a lot of gold mines.
--- Humanist - If you are conquering heretics/heathens and can easily get to +2 heretic/heathen tolerance. Makes later idea groups cheaper.
--- Religious - If you have low religious unity and humanism won't fix it (or maybe if you just really want the Deus Vult CB).
--- Expansion - For colonising in revealed provinces (eg. if your capital is in SE Asia).
If you're going to be short on admin, my next choices would be:
--- Exploration - For colonising in terra incognita.
--- Aristocratic - Interesting all-round idea set if you have too many mil points in the early game.
--- Quality - The first ideas can be decisive against an otherwise-equally-matched opponent.
Other interesting options:
--- Espionage - If you can't plan who you're going to go to war with, so you want claims on everyone just in case. Nice synergy with the age of discovery power that allows adjacent claims.
--- Influence - If you need to integrate vassals.
--- Plutocratic - Maybe? I vaguely remember that it's good but I haven't started as a republic in recent patches.
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Wait, how do you have admin points for ideas as 0/0/0 highly-vulnerable-in-the-early-game England?!
Wait what? I disagree with almost everything. Here are the main points I totally disagree with:
Administrative - That's the exact opposite, admin has 2 main uses, reducing coring cost and having cheaper mercs (and more states which is actually pretty good for a major in 1444 which can hit the state cap before Admin 8). It's for when you are big and want to expand, i.e. when you will generate less Admin points that what you need for coring (and want faster coring to avoid OE).
Economic - Gold mines, sure, but mostly Dev cost, it's to play tall, the inflation reduction is not that important.
Humanist - It's not so much about heathen/heretics but about minus unrest and less years of separatism. And Religious unity to stack absolutism.
Religious - It's mostly for Deus Vult and early game conquest of wrong religion.
Expansion - Always inferior to Exploration, even if you have no terra incognita.
Quality - Not an early game idea, the early game one is Defensive because of that insane morale boost, quality is more of a lategame pick, especially considering the policies. Offensive is also good early.
Espionage - for real? Lul. Claim cost comes so late and it makes you win like 3 months per claim. Instead of chaining claims it's better to go with unjustified demands from Influence if you want to expand without Deus Vult.
Influence - It's also about the AE, not only the vassals. And the unjustified demands as I said.
And I'm surprised you don't mention Diplomatic to fish PUs and have a BROT.
With estates. Half price level 3 advisor and 300 points in the first 20 years. And admin focus if you want it, even if England can benefit from mil focus because they have no nobility estate so they might fall behind France in miltech if you don't.
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Actually, to be very honest, I restart the game until Margaret of Anjou pop in the two first years. I mean, without save scumming, there are limits to being a masochist and having Henri VI for a decade is the kind of kink that they would refuse to indulge in SM dungeons.
It's the *first* idea group. To me, that's a much more situational choice than any of the subsequent ones.
Context: I usually play mid-size countries, usually non-Christian, and usually ROTW rather than Europe.
I am usually starved for admin points, to the point where I can barely afford techs let alone ideas. So, an admin idea group would usually be 2nd or 3rd.
I forgot about Defensive - that is a good one.
Espionage is very situational, but occasionally it's exactly the right choice. I included it because it's often dismissed out of hand.
Tanking diplo tech to take a diplo idea group first is usually fairly safe, and can allow you to unlock your first national idea very quickly.
Context: I usually play mid-size countries, usually non-Christian, and usually ROTW rather than Europe.
I am usually starved for admin points, to the point where I can barely afford techs let alone ideas. So, an admin idea group would usually be 2nd or 3rd.
I forgot about Defensive - that is a good one.
Espionage is very situational, but occasionally it's exactly the right choice. I included it because it's often dismissed out of hand.
Tanking diplo tech to take a diplo idea group first is usually fairly safe, and can allow you to unlock your first national idea very quickly.
Well, I usually play as ROTW minors and I almost always go with admin first: keep in mind that admin techs are mostly useless so you can fall behind to take admin ideas first. You don't have to and everyone can play as he wants, but you don't have to hit unimportant techs on time either, and you generate more monarch points by intentionally falling behind in admin tech to take admin ideas first (if you don't see it I can make the long explanation, but I think that's rather obvious). That's because you may lack admin points that you kinda have to take admin ideas early in ROTW if you plan to expand, because it gives a flat 24% discount on admin techs, and 25% discount on coring cost.
I mean I don't force anyone to play in an optimal way, but there is no doubt that there are some optimal things, and some things that just set you behind.
I would actually advise the exact opposite of that:
Now give me one situation where Espionage is the right choice. You can take it for the lol, you're free, but if we talk about optimal situation, when is it better than any other idea group in the game, except Maritime if you're landlocked.
I mean I don't force anyone to play in an optimal way, but there is no doubt that there are some optimal things, and some things that just set you behind.
I would actually advise the exact opposite of that:
My question would be: Which type of MP are you going to lack later on? If the answer is none, go for mil ideas or something that boosts your economy. If the answer is admin, go for admin now or else you'll have more troubles later. That seems like a counterintuitive rule but that's usually better if you do the math. That sets you behind marginally early on, but that speeds up rest of the game.
Now give me one situation where Espionage is the right choice. You can take it for the lol, you're free, but if we talk about optimal situation, when is it better than any other idea group in the game, except Maritime if you're landlocked.
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I prefer to take a Diplo set of Ideas with my first choice. You get another set of Ideas on two techs, so you're going to want to still spend Admin points on those. Between that and early game conquest you might have a hard time spending points on the ideas whereas if you took a diplo set you can easily let your tech slip while you take ideas and benefit from your NIs.
Between the two, I typically take admin over econ. I like the cheaper mercenaries, cheaper coring cost, and cheaper admin tech. If you're planning on a strictly tall game Economy might be better. It blends very well with a strict colonial game as you'll be able to afford more colonies and get better bang for your buck on monarch points you're not using on expansion.
Between the two, I typically take admin over econ. I like the cheaper mercenaries, cheaper coring cost, and cheaper admin tech. If you're planning on a strictly tall game Economy might be better. It blends very well with a strict colonial game as you'll be able to afford more colonies and get better bang for your buck on monarch points you're not using on expansion.
ok here is min maxing for you (without world conquest)
1)Do you have great culture group? (laventine/german/italy/chineese) if so take admin so you can state all of your culture lands
2)do you start too big? if so taking admin better than inflance
3)Do you start rich. if so take admin
everyting else economic shining more... sometimes both are good
1)Do you have great culture group? (laventine/german/italy/chineese) if so take admin so you can state all of your culture lands
2)do you start too big? if so taking admin better than inflance
3)Do you start rich. if so take admin
everyting else economic shining more... sometimes both are good
I would change "start" by "plan to be" and completely agree. An OPM should go admin first if you plan to have 1k dev in less than 100 years.
I disagree... as opm you should take infulance idea
its very smiler to admin but you can power ramp yourself by having vassals and reduce agresive expansion . Big countries can defeat coalitions but as opm you need to becareful with agresive expansion a lot The way I look at it is that I don't want to "waste" any monarch points. Hitting the cap = waste. Getting a tech ahead of time for no good reason = waste. Getting a tech more than 2-3 years late = waste (from institution cost). Developing a province solely to use up monarch points and avoid hitting the cap = waste.
When I take an ADM idea group first, I usually find myself "wasting" DIP or MIL points and it's difficult to unlock another idea group. So, I usually take a DIP or MIL idea group first and ADM second.
I also consider the entirety of the idea group - for example, Administrative has great initial ideas; but the rest are awful; but the policies are great in mid- to late-game.
Espionage is useful in the early game for several reasons:
(1) It's a way to decrease early-game coring costs that doesn't cost you admin points. (You can make lots more claims before going to war.)
(2) It gives you another diplomat in idea 2, so you can make claims (and therefore have CBs) on more countries.
(3) It reduces your expenses if you're short of gold (advisor costs, corruption).
The -10% liberty desire is also quite useful later on, if you're using your diplo slots for vassals/marches rather than alliances.
I looked back through my saves for this patch, and I couldn't see any where I picked Espionage first. But I picked it 4th for a multi-vassal colonialist Mali run, does that count? And, honestly, I would always consider it fairly (unlike, say, Naval).
If you not are going for a WC or lots of conquest. Exploration should more or less always be the #1 idea group. Unless you are landlocked and then its Diplomatic.
Okay, exploration first even as England (where it will take 30 years to be even in reach of colonizable stuff ?)
So how do you feel when your admin tech 6 costs 200 more admin points than if you completed admin ideas before taking it. Does it not feel like a waste of admin points? Genuine question. As for the rest, in ROTW I rarely if ever hit the cap with dip and mil, because I focus on admin and develop for institutions when optimal with mil and dip points. And the fact that you think Espionage is worth taking because you can make faster claims makes me wonder how you can consider -20% Admin tech cost from the last 5 admin ideas not optimal. Keep in mind that any idea you take reduce the cost of the techs of the same category by 2%, so takin an admin group first saves up more admin over the game.
@Vetgirig Don't take exploration first in any situation, there are not a lot of countries who can colonize before dip7, and England is not one of them.
To sum up what I think about England for first idea group and a somehow casual gameplay:
Military ideas are not viable, you need those milpoints to stay on par with France early on, because you have no nobility estate and the worst possible starting ruler.
Diplomatic ideas are not viable, you want Exploration as second group if you plan to play colonial so you can't take them first.
That leaves you with admin ideas, among which Admin is better if you want to expand a bit, and Economic is better if you want to abandon your continental holdings and play somewhat tall.
@Vetgirig Don't take exploration first in any situation, there are not a lot of countries who can colonize before dip7, and England is not one of them.
In ROTW Coalitions very early are quite uncommon. Only if you have wrong religion and wrong culture do you usually get some from my experience unless you really go super ham, which I personally can't do as an OPM. I agree with influence second as in any wide play, but I still prefer admin first to save up more monarch points.I disagree... as opm you should take infulance idea
To sum up what I think about England for first idea group and a somehow casual gameplay:
Military ideas are not viable, you need those milpoints to stay on par with France early on, because you have no nobility estate and the worst possible starting ruler.
Diplomatic ideas are not viable, you want Exploration as second group if you plan to play colonial so you can't take them first.
That leaves you with admin ideas, among which Admin is better if you want to expand a bit, and Economic is better if you want to abandon your continental holdings and play somewhat tall.
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