If there were one thing you could change about classic battletech history?

[Army Vet]

Because even regular air assets (especially drones) would invalidate the pretense of mech combat as king of the battlefield and make it instead a liability. Let alone orbital bombardment which can invalidate the first principles of the entire IP.

That's why it's severely limited.
Best to just roll with it.

Actually I recall from the lore when I started and that was the 3025 era mention of an orbital bombardment happening somewhere using nukes described as such a horrible massacre, all the IS agreed never to use orbital bombardment again at least with nukes possibly anything thus why Mechs and other equipment still had their combat roles. The only power groups that would consider orbital bombardment would be some Periphery pirates that could not afford and / or acquire them.

EDIT - I currently cannot find mention of it, the earliest and other mentions are from the Clan Invasion onward regarding orbital bombardment.

These things do exist still:

[pic removed to avoid long quote]

"During the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the system was particularly effective against the Israeli Air Force. Israeli pilots attempting to fly low in order to avoid SA-6 missiles were often shot down by ZSU-23-4s"
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4_Shilka

The 'Mech equivalent of course being the Rifleman and the JagerMech.


If we're talking space assets, I'm with you. But strictly air assets (even AeroSpace fighters in atmospheric flight, or drones) do not invalidate 'Mechs as Kings of the Battlefield.

Or even some non-Mech units made for anti-air use. The same company known for making anti-air Mechs like the 2 you mention also designed this anti-air beauty called the Partisan.

While not designed specifically for it, there is also the Pike that used similar weapons though of lesser quality. I still remember the night while as GM for our BT campaign, I put a Pike on the map and the player who had the Aerofighter character at the time piloting a VTOL screamed like no man should along with how 1 Pike proved so annoying to the players Mech forces they went from laughing at the Pike design to hating it.

Imagine how a Pike or Partisan would affect players of MechWarrior Online or HBS' BT under the rules they use.

 

[wundergoat]

But hold on -- this doesn't mesh with what Wundergoat was talking about. His point was that PWSs rendered traditional WarShips obsolete because they could do everything WarShips could do with less risk and at lower cost. I think that's a good explanation for the decline in WarShips, but if that's the case, then don't PWSs pose the same threat to BattleMechs being "King of the Battlefield" in the same way that WarShips do? Actually, isn't even worse, because PWSs can be made in large numbers and there's no way to destroy their tech base without also destroying the (fundamentally necessary for BattleMechs) tech for DropShips?

So, my reaction to this was, if that's true, then why bother wiping out WarShips at all? It doesn't correct the in-universe problem of implying that BattleMechs are strategically secondary, so you might as well let players have the option to put WarShips in their campaigns (however small a player base that is).

I didn't intend to say that PWS rendered WarShips obsolete - they don't. What they do accomplish is making WarShips vulnerable to non-warship battlegroups, and thus change naval strategy. Basically, WarShips stop making sense as cruisers and start being treated like modern day supercarriers - if you're deploying them as independent assets, you're doing it wrong.

The advent of PWS took away the requirement to build WarShips since you no longer need a WarShip to take on a WarShip. However, WarShips can act as a force multiplier for PWS squadrons.

As for why PWS don't invalidate mechs, PWS are kinda glass hammers and really specialized for space combat. They're very powerful and tough for dropships, but at the end of the day they are still dropships. PWS are also pretty bad at orbital bombardment. Very few are capable of doing it well, while even small WarShips are damn near apocalyptic in their capabilities.

 

[unclecid]

Imagine how a Pike or Partisan would affect players of MechWarrior Online or HBS' BT under the rules they use.

well....i and others dont have to know as their are a couple of mods that laong with the pike and partisan add many vees to HBS BT.
and let me tell ya anything with multiple direct fire weapons like ACs , Guass and PPCs get immediate priority destruction.

 

[Hobbes__]

Sure, but the point is that PWSs render BattleMechs strategically secondary in the same way that WarShips do.

But in that case, what about nuclear, biological and chemical weapons? The Successor States used those weapons extensively during the 1st and 2nd SWs military engagements (many WarShips were destroyed by them) and to completely wipe out civilian populations in worlds. Following this logic, WMDs make WarShips and PWSs strategically secondary as well, and Battlemechs would rank even less. But until Word of Blake's attacks, all powers (including the Clans) have considered WMDs to be banned weapons.

 

[Marowi]

But in that case, what about nuclear, biological and chemical weapons? The Successor States used those weapons extensively during the 1st and 2nd SWs military engagements (many WarShips were destroyed by them) and to completely wipe out civilian populations in worlds. Following this logic, WMDs make WarShips and PWSs strategically secondary as well, and Battlemechs would rank even less.

Yep, I think that logic follows. And there's no good way to make everyone forget the tech necessary to build nukes without also making them forget how to build fusion reactors for BattleMechs. I just think the WMD issue is easier to paper over with, "it's so horrible that no one would do it" (except for the bunch of times throughout the franchise when they do), and maybe it's less immediately obvious. Unless everyone needs to keep the planets they fight for intact, all the time, then there's always a possibility that someone could resort to nukes.

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

Yep, I think that logic follows. And there's no good way to make everyone forget the tech necessary to build nukes without also making them forget how to build fusion reactors for BattleMechs. I just think the WMD issue is easier to paper over with, "it's so horrible that no one would do it" (except for the bunch of times throughout the franchise when they do), and maybe it's less immediately obvious. Unless everyone needs to keep the planets they fight for intact, all the time, then there's always a possibility that someone could resort to nukes.

Basically yes. The weapons are so devastating that it would result in the end of mankind.


The Ares Convention was supposed to put an end to the use of Nukes and WMDs (with some success). It was a guideline for warfare within the Inner Sphere. All quotes are from Sarna.net...

"In 2412, the forces of Captain-General Peter Marik invaded the Capellan world of Tintavel. While at first a traditional assault, the defenders resorted to hit-and-run tactics and hiding in cities. After the fighting had already badly damaged the planetary infrastructure and tens of thousands of civilians had been killed in urban warfare, both commanders resorted to using strategic-level weapons of mass destruction. In the end, both Captain-General Marik and Capellan Chancellor Aleisha Liao ordered their forces to withdraw, and within a few years the planet was completely abandoned.[4]

The carnage so appalled Aleisha Liao that she began a campaign of aggressive diplomacy, succeeding in establishing a conclave of diplomats and House leaders - the Ares Conference, which was tasked with creating rules of war which would reduce civilian losses.[5] While the Conference was initially in favor of Aleisha's proposal, the face-to-face meeting between the national leaders revived simmering rivalries and general mistrust. Starting with 80 pages of the original draft, the Conventions bloated up as more and more clarifications were added to prevent a future "misunderstanding" during wartime.[6]

In the end, the Ares Conference drew up a massive treaty consisting of 6 articles and 18 appendices, totaling 320 pages. The Ares Conventions were signed on the 13th of June, 2412 by eight of the ten nations invited: the Terran Hegemony, Capellan Confederation, Free Worlds League, Rim Worlds Republic, Federated Suns, Principality of Rasalhague, Lyran Commonwealth, and Draconis Combine.[1] "

The Articles of the Ares Convention are below...

"Articles

• The Preamble announced the signing of the Conventions on June 13, 2412.
• Article I forbade the use of nuclear weapons against all civilian targets and planets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet.
• Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not anywhere near populated areas.
• Article III established the white flag with adorned red S as the universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.
• Article IV established the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss.
• Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities - unless a military target was within the city - and against civilian targets.
• Article VI forbade research, development, and use of biological and chemical weapons."

The Ares Convention was renounced by most of the Inner Sphere in after the fall of the Star League after it's exodus, however after the absolutely devastating wars of the early Succession Wars, it was reinstated to some extent called the 'Honors of War' (especially to help preserve Jump Ships as their destruction would strand mankind).

"In the centuries after the Fall of the Star League, the articles of the Ares Conventions were used as shorthand for "civilized warfare", while two different codes of conduct replaced them.

Sheer necessity caused the development of an informal code called "Honors of War" during the Third Succession War. This code, based on the Ares Conventions, was created in an age of ever-decreasing technological knowledge and manufacturing capability, necessitating a code of conduct which would ensure the survival of both knowledge and the increasingly irreplaceable 'Mechs and JumpShips. While created with different aims and lacking the means for oversight and less violent conflict resolution, both were successful in preventing further massive civilian death tolls. [12]"

I know this is a long post, but basically this is why WMDs aren't really used in the BattleTech universe by the time the main franchise kicks off in 3025.

 

[DevIO]

Given that a lot of fights are over resources, technology and infrastructure. Using a nuke to win by destroying the very thing you were fighting for results in a particularly pyrrhic victory. I can't recall where I read it but in the 3rd Succession War factories were so precious and few that the side that loses fighting over it would rather concede it than destroy it. The hope is that at least they'd be able to retake it in the future.

 

[Havamal]

One note.
That's House Warfare. The Houses were subjected to centuries of attrition where just such Total Warfare ground their capabilities to a shell of what they were.

Comstars tech level was secretly far different, thus WOB is not necessarily bound by ritualized Warfare forms [from self interest] . It was never really honor that prevented worse excesses by IS powers and their history shows when they had the capability they enacted total Warfare, but they eventually suffered the effects of it in return

 

[Brother Diogenes]

And if part of the WoB's plan was to roll back several decades of accelerating progress, it would actually make sense for them to use the WMDs everybody else had been holding back on. They wanted something that would do massive damage to tech bases, infrastructure, and habitability.

 

[unclecid]

And if part of the WoB's plan was to roll back several decades of accelerating progress, it would actually make sense for them to use the WMDs everybody else had been holding back on. They wanted something that would do massive damage to tech bases, infrastructure, and habitability.

bah you dont need WMDs for that....social media and some serious hacking/virus attacks and its all good.

 

[Timaeus]

And if part of the WoB's plan was to roll back several decades of accelerating progress, it would actually make sense for them to use the WMDs everybody else had been holding back on. They wanted something that would do massive damage to tech bases, infrastructure, and habitability.

WoB went all:

just to try and survive once they realized that it was the only chance they had to do so.

 

[Aotrs Commander]

I think fluff-wise, I would pick either the Jihad (though to be fair as I haven't gone further than the 3060s (since that what my version of Heavy Metal Pro runs up to) I'm not hugely opposed to it) or fundementally altering the clans so that their culture isn't... What it is.

I mean don't get me wrong, I am one of those horrible, horrible people who loves Clan tech and Clan mechs, I just find the Clans themselves to be... Meh.



But, though, in preference, what I'd like to do is... Let's say a modernised alteranate universe (let's not say reboot). In which I would go back and generally modernise the rules and attendant fluff and bring it a little more out of 1980s technology (so that it doesn't look quite so embarrasingly outdated compared to modern technology), while still retaining the basic flavour and re-rationalise the details and nuts-and-bolts. The histories, the characters and events wouldn't need to be touched, just some of the minor technical details tweaked. (For instance, scaling up the numbers from "sci-fi writers have no sense of scale" to numbers which are still meaningful in the intended sense, but not several orders of magnitude out of whack.) A bit of a nit-picker's tweak, as it were, for the more nit-picky age.



For instance, I would significantly revise MG and ACs (and ranges generally upwards, but significantly upward certainly the lower ACs and MG)[1], and how infantry work. Make them suck rather less (e.g. anti-mech tactics being the default, not the exception, along with stuff like giving them the equivilent of modern LADs or something even on rifle units - and drop infatry units down to smaller, more useable fire-teams - basically going away from the "infantry is just canon-fodder" thing, such that taking The Wrong Sort Of Mech into the ideal infantry fighting places would be Very Bad - like it is with tanks. And the fluff would be tweaked to fit, the minimum necessary to fit. I'd also maybe have it in lore and mechanics that Sprinting (from TT) allowed significantly faster movement (but at the cost of basically having to be in a straight line, very easy to hit and impossible over anything other than good going - so basically only safe to do if no-foe is looking.)

The sort of changes that are relatively minor in effect (save in some border cases), but sufficiently wide-sweeping that you'd need to go through pretty much everything to integrate it thoroughly so as for it to not come off as just added on.




[1]E.g., for instance, I might theorhetically make MGs have (assuming I left all other ranges as were) four or five or more times the range, but maybe only 1 damage - or perhaps the same damage at the same range, but half that damage out to the new range - (and less ammunition per ton, MG ammo is a deathtrap in TT before case!), but be better at dealing with infantry (suppressing/pinning) and/or maybe have MG Arrays be something endemic to MGs in BattleMechs (cribbing some of the tonnage formerly used for all those bullets for the stuff maybe!) - or do what HBS have done and have the support weapon category.

 

[Nichino]

Personally, I wouldn't change anything. Only because I wouldn't want to rob someone of what they enjoy.

But if I had to choose, I'd leave lostech as lostech. No Helm Memory Core and no Clan Tech. So everything after War of 3039 would need a lot of tweaking. I just really like the feel of "3025" and would want the "history"/timeline to keep progressing with level 1 tech. There could still be a "clan invasion", etc, just not level 2 tech.

That being said, I know tech needed to evolve to keep the game fresh, but I'm more in it for the lore, and thus the story / RP of it. I have fun with level 1 tech and don't need the other tech level choices. (Again, all just me personally, and I can see the fun in the other settings.)

 

[wundergoat]

...and how infantry work. Make them suck rather less (e.g. anti-mech tactics being the default, not the exception, along with stuff like giving them the equivilent of modern LADs or something even on rifle units - and drop infatry units down to smaller, more useable fire-teams - basically going away from the "infantry is just canon-fodder" thing, such that taking The Wrong Sort Of Mech into the ideal infantry fighting places would be Very Bad - like it is with tanks.

The TW ruleset make standard infantry a heck of a lot better - if you don't have anti-infantry weapons they are a bear to clear out in any reasonable timeframe. An Awesome can at best kill 3 troopers per turn whereas before it could take out 30. Meanwhile MGs still kill 2d6. Also, anti-mech training is now a skill (replaces piloting for infantry) that all infantry have. While 'untrained' infantry might not be great at it, they can execute anti-mech attacks and are thus potent area denial. Throw in TacOps rules and you get things like improved infantry armor, stealth equipment, field guns, minelayers, etc. Now not only are those ground-pounders an even greater pain in the butt to damage, but they're also hard to hit and can sting you back. TRO3085 actually has a section devoted to various conventional infantry examples.

I think fluff-wise, I would pick either the Jihad (though to be fair as I haven't gone further than the 3060s (since that what my version of Heavy Metal Pro runs up to

The combined arms aspect of the Jihad era is one of the things that got me back into BT TT. You have this awesome range of units, from cutting edge technologies like LAMs and superheavy mechs down to ICE powered vehicles and humble infantry. The era even has 'retrotech' mechs built out of civilian factories to specs thoroughly outclassed by 3025 units. It reinforced that mechs are elite tip-of-the-spear units but vehicles and infantry have their place.

As for programs, I'd recommend checking out Solaris Skunkwerks and the unit builder the MegaMek team made.

 

[Amechwarrior]

The TW ruleset make standard infantry a heck of a lot better - if you don't have anti-infantry weapons they are a bear to clear out in any reasonable timeframe. An Awesome can at best kill 3 troopers per turn whereas before it could take out 30. Meanwhile MGs still kill 2d6. Also, anti-mech training is now a skill (replaces piloting for infantry) that all infantry have. While 'untrained' infantry might not be great at it, they can execute anti-mech attacks and are thus potent area denial. Throw in TacOps rules and you get things like improved infantry armor, stealth equipment, field guns, minelayers, etc. Now not only are those ground-pounders an even greater pain in the butt to damage, but they're also hard to hit and can sting you back. TRO3085 actually has a section devoted to various conventional infantry examples.



The combined arms aspect of the Jihad era is one of the things that got me back into BT TT. You have this awesome range of units, from cutting edge technologies like LAMs and superheavy mechs down to ICE powered vehicles and humble infantry. The era even has 'retrotech' mechs built out of civilian factories to specs thoroughly outclassed by 3025 units. It reinforced that mechs are elite tip-of-the-spear units but vehicles and infantry have their place.

As for programs, I'd recommend checking out Solaris Skunkwerks and the unit builder the MegaMek team made.

What are the current rules on missile weapons vs Inf? Like SRM/LRMs compared to how good a MG is vs Inf.

 

[Brother Diogenes]

Paraphrased from Total Warfare, p. 216, a heavy weapon's damage against infantry is typically divided by 10 and rounded up, then adding +1 if it's a ballistic cluster weapon, or +2 for a pulse laser. This damage is then doubled if the infantry is in clear terrain.

A missile weapon divides its total damage by 5 instead, except for Inferno missiles, which automatically eliminate 3 infantry per missile regardless of cover. (Notably, the example in the book doesn't involve rolling on the cluster hit table except for infantry vs. infantry small arms attacks. Apparently, if you fire an LRM-15 into an infantry squad and roll a hit, that's 3 troopers down without having to check. Likewise, an Inferno SRM-6 will take out 18. EDIT: @stjobe below notes that Inferno SRMs do still use the cluster hits table, so presumably other missile and cluster weapon systems will do likewise.)

So LRM-15s, LRM-20s, and SRM-6s work a little better than most energy and ballistic weapons (assuming a good roll on the cluster table), but large and medium pulse lasers are probably your best options if you don't have anti-infantry weapons or want to hit them from longer range.

 

[wundergoat]

You've also got access to flechette ammo for ACs and frag for missile launchers as standard options in Total Warfare. Both do full damage to infantry, but flechette does half to everything else and frag does nothing to armored units.

 

[stjobe]

Likewise, an Inferno SRM-6 will take out 18.

In the rules for Inferno missiles it does state that it's dependant on numbers of missile that actually hit:

"Infantry: Every missile that strikes a conventional infantry unit automatically eliminates three troopers; every three missiles that strike a battle armor unit automatically eliminate one randomly determined trooper (unless the unit mounts fire-resistance armor; see Fire-Resistant Armor, p. 228). After all inferno attacks against an infantry unit have been resolved, add together the total number of inferno missiles that struck the target and then determine how many troopers were eliminated. For example, if two separate SRM attacks utilizing inferno missiles result in a total of five missiles striking a battle armor unit, only a single trooper would be eliminated; if those same five missiles strike a conventional infantry platoon, 15 troopers would be eliminated."
- Total Warfare, p.141

So a standard SRM-6 will take out 3 troopers (12/5 = 2.4, rounded up to 3), but an Inferno SRM-6 will take out anywhere between 3 and 18 troopers, depending on the Cluster Hits Table roll.

One thing that makes infantry so hard to kill is that the Burst-Fire Weapon Damage vs Conventional Infantry table that we all know and love (the one that states MGs do 2d6 damage to infantry, and flamers do 4d6) goes right out the window once the infantry is inside a building:

"When an attacker uses burst-fire weapons against conventional infantry located in a building hex, treat such weapons as direct-fire ballistic weapons, with their standard Damage Values as noted on the appropriate Weapons and Equipment Tables (see Attacking Units Inside Buildings, p. 171).
- ibid, p.215

Another thing of course being that you can't actually fire your big bad 'Mech's weapons at the little squishies:

"Because infantry are comparatively small and are trained to use even the least bit of concealing terrain to their advantage, units outside a building hex cannot fire directly at infantry units inside a building. They must fire at the building hex instead."
- ibid., p.172

Finally, even if you do fire at the building (because you can't see the little buggers plinking away at you), the building will only let a portion of the damage done to it go through to the infantry inside, from 75% for a light building to 0% for a hardened building.

 

[unclecid]

my solution for infantry hiding in buildings.....
dont try and shoot at the squibs....shoot the building thats why they got a CF factor.
bring the bulding down on top of them
best way to get rid of little pests that shoot fire at you

 

[Crissa]

To the original topic...

I'd add in more variety in politics. Too much weight on nobles and heroes. Not that the type of government matters to mercenaries and troops... It changes how worlds are managed and can be the basis for deep economic flavor.