If there were one thing you could change about classic battletech history?

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Marauder3D

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There is a lot of points where we have 'sliding door' moments in BattleTech. Helm Core, Clan Invasion, ComStar Schism, Fed-Com Civil War, Jihad, the list goes on. I'm not sure where I'd deviate from the timeline, in my perfect head-canon. There are a lot of cool "what ifs" we could consider.

All that being said, the setting is pretty fricking cool in 3150, which is the current timeline. Things are moving fast. I don't want to spoil things for folks, but imagine this: big kid on the block in 3145 is the Capellan Confederation, and the kid getting kicked in the teeth? The Federated Suns. Can you imagine that world?
 

Koizumi

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Well, but that's not the point. I legitimately don't think the developers/line managers at BattleTech intended to use the term offensively, but I think it would be understandable for someone to worry that was the case, so it wasn't a good decision from the perspective of growing the franchise. At a minimum, you're demanding that your customer base is knowledgeable enough to appreciate nuance, so you're already marketing to a subset of the population (and depending on how pessimistic you are, a very small one, potentially).

I always thought that the naming of the "Word of Blake Jihad" was a reference/homage to the "Butlerian Jihad" (link) of the Dune universe, which shares multiple features with the Battletch universe (mainly the idea of feudalism in space). Does anybody have any idea if that was actually that case?

But yeah, avoiding to go OT, I agree that the naming might not have been the most happy choice (also because it does not make much sense thematically).
 

Jamey

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All that being said, the setting is pretty fricking cool in 3150, which is the current timeline. Things are moving fast. I don't want to spoil things for folks, but imagine this: big kid on the block in 3145 is the Capellan Confederation, and the kid getting kicked in the teeth? The Federated Suns. Can you imagine that world?
I understand how the Dark Ages setting could be very cool as a (re)fallen civilization. Unfortunately, the method of getting there just soured me on ever trying to care because the Jihad has never felt like Battletech to me.
 

Timaeus

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I understand how the Dark Ages setting could be very cool as a (re)fallen civilization. Unfortunately, the method of getting there just soured me on ever trying to care because the Jihad has never felt like Battletech to me.
To be fair, at least from a numbers point of view, the Amaris Civil War wasn't really "BattleTech" either given the massive numbers of units that were fielded compared to the numbers that are fielded almost any other time in the setting. but it set the groundwork for the events needed, which is what the jihad did also (whether or not the events were needed in jihad is another topic, which i won't get into here). The jihad just got to be play out by players, unlike the Fall.
 
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Jamey

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To be fair, at least from a numbers point of view, the Amaris Civil War wasn't really "BattleTech" either given the massive numbers of units that were fielded compared to the numbers that are fielded almost any other time in the setting. but it set the groundwork for the events needed, which is what the jihad did also (whether or not the events were needed in jihad is another topic, which i won't get into here). The jihad just got to be play out by players, unlike the Fall.
I'd argue the Jihad was a tipping point caused by the universe being written into a corner by the continuing expansion of centralized power and technology. It's the point that the universe completely loses me, but the mistakes had been accumulating for quite some time.

Were I writing the Jihad, I would have had it be another slow fall into barbarism caused by the war between Comstar and WOB destroying the HPG network. Without instant communication throughout the Inner Sphere, entropy starts taking hold and warlords seize power for themselves. No need for nukes, bioweapons, cyberzombies, and the obliteration of everyone and everything we know and care about.

If the damage that is done to the HPG network (perhaps active jamming?) also impacted the Clans, they could have a similar fall.
 

Derek Pullem

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There is a lot of points where we have 'sliding door' moments in BattleTech. Helm Core, Clan Invasion, ComStar Schism, Fed-Com Civil War, Jihad, the list goes on. I'm not sure where I'd deviate from the timeline, in my perfect head-canon. There are a lot of cool "what ifs" we could consider.

All that being said, the setting is pretty fricking cool in 3150, which is the current timeline. Things are moving fast. I don't want to spoil things for folks, but imagine this: big kid on the block in 3145 is the Capellan Confederation, and the kid getting kicked in the teeth? The Federated Suns. Can you imagine that world?
Basically BT seems to have to reinvent itself every few years by turning over the top dog. Unfortunately whilst characters in the storyline have invincible plot armour, your average player just wonders what on earth BT is smoking.
 

Army Vet

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Well, but that's not the point. I legitimately don't think the developers/line managers at BattleTech intended to use the term offensively, but I think it would be understandable for someone to worry that was the case, so it wasn't a good decision from the perspective of growing the franchise. At a minimum, you're demanding that your customer base is knowledgeable enough to appreciate nuance, so you're already marketing to a subset of the population (and depending on how pessimistic you are, a very small one, potentially).

I and others subscribe to a different menatality, when games and other works of fiction are allowed to use such language, it can be done in an instructional manner. I believe such material can be used to broaden one's knowledge, this cannot be done if we become too sensitive.

Keep in mind, too....

The entire game universe was thought up during the early 1980s. The game was released the same year as the original Apple Macintosh and IBM PC jr. Science Fiction writers at the time didn't have the concept of computers powerful and small enough to handle all that. The closest they came were the tablet like devices in 2001 : A Space Odyssey. Even those were mostly just information entry/viewing ways to interact with the much larger station/ship computer.

The actuality of cell phones weren't all that great either. At the time, they were extremely expensive(over $9k in todays dollars) and advanced devices weighing a couple pounds each and restricted to the more advanced and larger cities of the world. You could talk for about 30 minutes between 10 hour recharges.

The idea that an individual tank, plane, robot, etc. could be controlled by a small device that weighs less than 8 oz and fits in your hand was literally unthinkable at the time.

GPS at the time was a military secret... poorly kept mind you, but still. It was not generally available and the equipment for it was huge.

etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, I remember when I first played BT and other games back then in the 80s.
 

Hobbes__

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Basically BT seems to have to reinvent itself every few years by turning over the top dog. Unfortunately whilst characters in the storyline have invincible plot armour, your average player just wonders what on earth BT is smoking.

Coming up next: the Tatatae Horde invasion in the 3200s after having defeated and eaten all stranded humans in their planet and learning how to build their giant chicken mechs and ships.
 

wundergoat

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You're correct about the Pocket Warships developed after the end of the FedCom Civil War, and after the Jihad it appears that those were preferred over Warships. But between the 2nd SW and until the end of the 4th, the logic was that Jumpships were more vital than Warships because without them interstellar nations couldn't exist, thus space combat became limited between Dropships and Aerospace Fighters (which didn't require weapons designed to engage Warships, like the Pocket Warships carried later), and Jumpships would quickly surrender rather than being destroyed since they were nearly irreplaceable and could be recaptured later.

The rediscovery of Star League technologies after the 4th SW meant that Jumpships could be mass produced again, but Warships only started being built again after the Clan invasion, as a response to their usage by the clans (which was completely different from the 1st SW since the Clans usually bid them right away during trials, unless the opponent also had Warships).
Even at their height prior to the fall of the star league the successor states didn't invest much into WarShips; the Terran Hegemony was ahead of them by leaps and bounds. In 2765, right at the start of the SL Civil War, they had 239 across the 5 of them, while the SLDF navy (essentially Hegemony) had 2,250 WarShips and about another 1,000 in mothballs. The designs also fit different doctrines. Hegemony/SLDF WarShips were built to fit specific roles in the fleet and act as part of a battlegroup while successor state ships were much more multirole and better capable of independent operations.

Once the IS economy and technical base started ramping up in the early 3000's, making WarShips wasn't a priority. They're massive investments requiring exotic technologies and extensive infrastructure to be built from scratch. Meanwhile a lot of other recovered tech was much easier to develop and ramp into production. The Clan threat caused the successor states to launch a crash program to build WarShips and then their fleets grew pretty rapidly. Then the Jihad happened and most of those expensive shipyards got WMD'd and a fair few WarShips ate nukes. Turns out that expensive strategic assets are just asking to be hit with a headhunter attack.

During the FedCom civil war/Jihad a lot of factions ran with the pocket warship (PWS) concept and you see the top size of combat dropships go from 4,500 tons to 36,000 tons. You see PWS squadrons fight and win against full size WarShips. Furthermore, brand new 'subcapital' weapons allow dropships to fight effectively at much longer ranges than before. After that war, the factions invested in PWS production. After all, PWS are far cheaper to build and a lot of them can be built dirtside. WarShips become strategic assets, centerpieces of naval battlegroups largely built of PWS. The RotS ends up building 100k ton monsters that can stand toe to toe with smaller WarShips.

Outside of the fiction, one big issue with WarShips in the game is that any fight you put them in regimental in scale. Pretty much all of them are named and accounted for. As a player, it is nearly impossible to play a game with one that fits with the lore. Meanwhile, a PWS battle can happen at far smaller scales and is much easier to pass off as a border skirmish or other small unit action common to the universe.


Sorry if it is a little off topic but I love me some BTech naval discussion.


As for stuff I'd change - I'd fill in a bit more about how and why the technological revolution kicked of as quick as it did. I think it makes sense personally, but there is precious little content that actually addresses the post-Helm renaissance. I'd also tone down clantech while also making them less stupid. Seriously, even as awesome as their stuff is they had no chance taking over the IS with just the handful of clans that invaded. If you make them less OP individually, you can have them actually attack as a cohesive group. You know, intelligently.
 

Marowi

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As a player, it is nearly impossible to play a game with one that fits with the lore. Meanwhile, a PWS battle can happen at far smaller scales and is much easier to pass off as a border skirmish or other small unit action common to the universe.

I agree with this, but then why do the line developers seem so bent on removing WarShips from the lore altogether? Give the players the choice. (After destroying the Steiners and Davions, it really feels like their next priority is blowing up every last WarShip. Maybe that's even the other way around. I don't disagree with the impact they have on the game, but I think the various, often stupid, ways such valuable assents are lost just isn't credible and hurts the immersion).
 

Kereminde

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Why pull back on Warships? Because Base Delta Zero is a thing which is a legitimate strategy they don't want to have players keep asking "why don't they just do this to win wars?" I mean, already there's the question of "why use nukes, Wobbies, when you can just fling rocks for much more devastating kinetic strikes?" in the air . . .
 

Havamal

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Because even regular air assets (especially drones) would invalidate the pretense of mech combat as king of the battlefield and make it instead a liability. Let alone orbital bombardment which can invalidate the first principles of the entire IP.

That's why it's severely limited.
Best to just roll with it. :)
 

unclecid

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isnt that why FASA had a separate game for aero stuff....ya know Aerotech and then later Battlespace.

aero in this kind of game should be as a non player controlled event and or money sink.
 

Havamal

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Disclosure I played a whole heap of Aerotech.
 

stjobe

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Because even regular air assets (especially drones) would invalidate the pretense of mech combat as king of the battlefield and make it instead a liability.
These things do exist still:

ZSU-23-4-latrun-4.jpg


"During the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the system was particularly effective against the Israeli Air Force. Israeli pilots attempting to fly low in order to avoid SA-6 missiles were often shot down by ZSU-23-4s"
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4_Shilka

The 'Mech equivalent of course being the Rifleman and the JagerMech.

Let alone orbital bombardment which can invalidate the first principles of the entire IP.
If we're talking space assets, I'm with you. But strictly air assets (even AeroSpace fighters in atmospheric flight, or drones) do not invalidate 'Mechs as Kings of the Battlefield.
 

Havamal

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These things do exist still:

ZSU-23-4-latrun-4.jpg


"During the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the system was particularly effective against the Israeli Air Force. Israeli pilots attempting to fly low in order to avoid SA-6 missiles were often shot down by ZSU-23-4s"
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-23-4_Shilka

The 'Mech equivalent of course being the Rifleman and the JagerMech.


If we're talking space assets, I'm with you. But strictly air assets (even AeroSpace fighters in atmospheric flight, or drones) do not invalidate 'Mechs as Kings of the Battlefield.
Disagree.
But not going to go full tangent on it. :D
 

Marowi

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Because even regular air assets (especially drones) would invalidate the pretense of mech combat as king of the battlefield and make it instead a liability. Let alone orbital bombardment which can invalidate the first principles of the entire IP.

But hold on -- this doesn't mesh with what Wundergoat was talking about. His point was that PWSs rendered traditional WarShips obsolete because they could do everything WarShips could do with less risk and at lower cost. I think that's a good explanation for the decline in WarShips, but if that's the case, then don't PWSs pose the same threat to BattleMechs being "King of the Battlefield" in the same way that WarShips do? Actually, isn't even worse, because PWSs can be made in large numbers and there's no way to destroy their tech base without also destroying the (fundamentally necessary for BattleMechs) tech for DropShips?

So, my reaction to this was, if that's true, then why bother wiping out WarShips at all? It doesn't correct the in-universe problem of implying that BattleMechs are strategically secondary, so you might as well let players have the option to put WarShips in their campaigns (however small a player base that is).
 

Havamal

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But hold on -- this doesn't mesh with what Wundergoat was talking about. His point was that PWSs rendered traditional WarShips obsolete because they could do everything WarShips could do with less risk and at lower cost. I think that's a good explanation for the decline in WarShips, but if that's the case, then don't PWSs pose the same threat to BattleMechs being "King of the Battlefield" in the same way that WarShips do? Actually, isn't even worse, because PWSs can be made in large numbers and there's no way to destroy their tech base without also destroying the (fundamentally necessary for BattleMechs) tech for DropShips?

So, my reaction to this was, if that's true, then why bother wiping out WarShips at all? It doesn't correct the in-universe problem of implying that BattleMechs are strategically secondary, so you might as well let players have the option to put WarShips in their campaigns (however small a player base that is).
The advent of pocket warships coincides with the imminent return of planet nuking to the IP. Look at the moments in the IP that this capability is utilized followed by the periods after...
 
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