If there were one thing you could change about classic battletech history?

[Prussian Havoc]

Sooo...Warden.

No.

Let’s review the bidding, shall we...

“The Warden Clans were those Clans who adhered to the Warden ideology in Clan politics. The essence of the Warden ideal was that Aleksandr and Nicholas Kerensky had never intended for the Clans to reestablish the Star League by force or conquer the Inner Sphere, but to remain aloof from its corrupting influence while standing ready to intervene should the Inner Sphere require saving from an existential threat. (SARNA.net)”

Whereas...

No. From what I read of @Pherdnut post, it is not so much “Warden” as it would have been Benevolent Interventionism.

But Intervention with a Purpose to resurrect the True Star League Incarnate...


...rather than some Davion/Steinerist Knock Off.

“Hands Off” vice Decidely Hands On.

So no. Not Warden.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Last I checked, Minoru Kurita was the first illegitimate pretender who illegally declared himself First Lord when the negotiations stalled...

It was evidence of the growing power of the FEDCOM (and it’s use/spread of Helm Technology), pulled from the Outbound Light, that greatly aided Khan Showers in bringing about Operation Revival and the invasion of the Inner Sphere. : )

 

[Havamal]

No.

Let’s review the bidding, shall we...

“The Warden Clans were those Clans who adhered to the Warden ideology in Clan politics. The essence of the Warden ideal was that Aleksandr and Nicholas Kerensky had never intended for the Clans to reestablish the Star League by force or conquer the Inner Sphere, but to remain aloof from its corrupting influence while standing ready to intervene should the Inner Sphere require saving from an existential threat. (SARNA.net)”

Whereas...


“Hands Off” vice Decidely Hands On.

So no. Not Warden.

You're not wrong, but Warden clans took part in the invasion.
It's the difference between stated ideal and practical application.
The Wardens were hands on too, mostly in their maneuvering to become the Ilkhan

 

[Prussian Havoc]

You're not wrong, but Warden clans took part in the invasion.
It's the difference between stated ideal and practical application.
The Wardens were hands on too, many in their maneuvering to become the Ilkhan

I disagree. Just because Clans later separated themselves from the Warden ideal, does not dilute or change the Warden ideal.

Those Clans became to one degree or another, Moderates along the Warden/Crusader continuum.

But then, opinions do differ. : )
That is what makes these and other forum so very FUN. :bow:

 

[Havamal]

It was evidence of the growing power of the FEDCOM (and it’s use/spread of Helm Technology), pulled from the Outbound Light, that greatly aided Khan Showers in bringing about Operation Revival and the invasion of the Inner Sphere. : )

Of course.

Though you know I replied to this and it's subtext: "...rather than some Davion/Steinerist Knock Off."

As they would have been alarmed by ANY faction gaining that ground, and the star league didn't need to fall originally except Minuru got the ball rolling, which isn't surprising. ...

So much for Concord.

 

[stjobe]

If there were one thing to change . . . it's tough, but I think anyone could get behind this one.

Go back in time and highly suggest not using those certain 'Mech designs.

To be fair to history though, at the time they did use them it was perfectly above-board and legal. Not until a certain company decided their license trumped everyone elses license was there any problems.

But yeah, still probably a safe one to do, as far as meddling with time lines go.

Now for my personal one, which is of a much more controversial nature and, again, just my personal opinion: Everything after the 4th Succession War has to go, and we'll start over from there. No Clans, no Civil War, no WOBblies, no Jihad, no Dark Ages. Just the warring states of the Inner Sphere going at it with ever-so-slowly increasing capabilities.

3025 BattleTech is my personally preferred era; I never even liked the Clans when they were first introduced with their power-not-so-much-a-creep-as-a-rushing-torrent, their weird we've-been-gone-300-years-so-of-course-our-society-is-completely-changed, and their übermensch tendencies. Post-clan gets even weirder for me, it just makes me want to get back to the original setting, with the neo-feudal warlords battling it out in centuries-old, poorly understood and poorly maintained war machines. That's where the magic of the setting lies for me, not in assembly-lines worth of new designs pouring in (and out!) over the Inner Sphere border.

All that being said, I take heart that Jordan is on record saying he'd like the chance to fix the power-creep of the later eras, and who knows? HBS might be the place and BATTLETECH the game that makes it happen - if that happens it might even make an old 3025-diehard like me like the Clans.

Edit: Oh, and just for clarification: I fully appreciate that there are fans of later eras out there that love "their" era just as much as I love "mine"; that's a given, and no disrespect towards them intended. The greatest thing about BattleTech's disparate eras is that there's always someone that utterly and truly loves them, even the less popular ones. That's a testament to Jordan and all the other authors' worldbuilding and storytelling skills if anything is.

 

[Jonathan8883]

As far as Lostech and Mech commonality goes... it's a game. Take any other multiplayer RPG game.

"This is D&D Dark Sun. The land is scorched, magic is rare, and making powerful magic items is a lost art. The gods are dead or non-responsive.
--->Party adventures-->Party hits level 15
The Fighter has a +4 Flaming greatsword, magic armor, a Ring of Protection +3, and Boots of Flying
The thief has twin +3 Short Swords of Backstabbing, a Ring of Blinking, and carries fifteen invisibility potions hidden about his person next to his magic lockpicks +8
The wizard has a staff of the magi, a Robe of Protection +4, and a Circlet of Intelligence +6, and three magically created constructs following him around as bodyguard.

Rare loot? Forgotten? Expensive? That just means the players have to work harder to get it. Player characters are always special. They never get garrison postings where they spend 20 years maintaining their lance of Panthers and then retire to hand their mechs off to their heirs.

Now scale it up to the book level, and again, nobody writes books about the nobodies who don't go anyplace interesting or do anything special. For every one merc unit swimming in lostech, there are 200 small units who would be happy just to have all of their battlemechs running at factory spec.

 

[stjobe]

For every one merc unit swimming in lostech, there are 200 small units who would be happy just to have all of their battlemechs running at factory spec.

Now there's that 3025 flavour! A good streak of fortune means having most of your 'Mechs in fighting order! - even Kerensky's Black Widow Company 'Mechs had long-standing battle damage (I did a post on this very topic sometime back but I can't find it anymore; the gist was that of the three companies portrayed in the three first scenario packs, all of them had roughly half their 'Mechs with battle damage that simply could not be repaired - and that's the top mercs of 3025!).

EDIT: Made a new thread about it here.

Player characters are always special. They never get garrison postings where they spend 20 years maintaining their lance of Panthers and then retire to hand their mechs off to their heirs.

Perhaps not, but once in a while a milk run (or an uneventful garrison posting) is just what you need to put your company in order; I'd love to be able to take a long-duration, low-pay mission after I've bumbled things up royally by dropping way out of my league - but it's not possible. All the drops are combat-expected.

 

[Apocal]

Full disclosure: I dislike playing 3025 on the actual table because it takes too long for (IMO) too little payoff. The Clan invasion era is better about that, with tons of XL engines to go boom, lots of actual headcappers fielded, pulse weapons and tarcomps in play, etc.

Anyway, Clans immediately launch a re-invasion in 3067 while the FedCom is busy self-destructing, take Terra and launch the ilClan era then. Instead of the Jihad in the aftermath, we have feudal politicking among the Great Houses as they all want the Clans gone but nobody trusts each other enough to truly commit to the fight. At the same time, the Clans, being really tiny populations, start to assimilate, so the meta-plot is similar to the 3025 but with what amounts to another Succession War going on involving most of the factions.

 

[Kereminde]

Now scale it up to the book level, and again, nobody writes books about the nobodies who don't go anyplace interesting or do anything special. For every one merc unit swimming in lostech, there are 200 small units who would be happy just to have all of their battlemechs running at factory spec.

To be fair, I prefer writing my stuff in the gulf between those two extremes.

 

[Timaeus]

No.

Let’s review the bidding, shall we...

“The Warden Clans were those Clans who adhered to the Warden ideology in Clan politics. The essence of the Warden ideal was that Aleksandr and Nicholas Kerensky had never intended for the Clans to reestablish the Star League by force or conquer the Inner Sphere, but to remain aloof from its corrupting influence while standing ready to intervene should the Inner Sphere require saving from an existential threat. (SARNA.net)”

Whereas...


“Hands Off” vice Decidely Hands On.

So no. Not Warden.

Actions speak louder than words here and the Wardens, as Havamal pointed out, still partook of the Invasion so that they could be the ones to usher in a new Star League over the Crusaders version. The Crusaders want to fix the Inner Sphere by bringing it under clan control by becoming IlClan Ushering a New—better according the Crusaders—Star League.

The Wardens want to protect the Inner Sphere from the Crusader plans, and therefore decided the best option is to beat the Crusaders to Terra and becoming IlClan themselves (or second best, working to delay the Crusaders which effectively happened). Even though they no longer understand the legacy of the SLDF, they work to recreate it (from a Clan perspective) to protect the Inner Sphere from the existential threat, which is Crusaders.

Note that by Clan ideology the Clan that becomes IlClan effectively resurrects the Star League.

 

[ronhatch]

This means one is assuming a Universal conspiracy, that makes the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" look like an unimaginative story developed by toddlers. To run a space-faring Universe, you simply need tons of highly educated people just to produce and maintain all the necessary technology to keep things going. Not to mention the highly sophisticated technology in daily life. So it is fair to assume that, just like now, planets are littered with schools and universities.

This whole ComStar narrative is another of these poorly designed and not-thought-through premises. Huge, powerful political entities with hundreds of planets, tens of thousands of education facilities and billions of intelligent people are capable to produce, run and maintain all this technology, but nobody at any place or time can reconstruct a Gauss Cannon? Because some weird religious organization is preventing it with some magical skill? Give me a break. And don`t even get me started about Tukayyid and the 144 LosTech Mech Regiments they pulled out of the hat (or other orifices).

As I said. One can roll with it. But if we are honest to ourselves, these things make no sense at all.

I wish I could click "Agree" on this more than once.

I didn't mention ComStar in my original post because while I think LosTech is "just" absurd and can be discussed, claiming ComStar as a justification for it goes beyond absurd to where I'd rather just ignore it and rock quietly back and forth in the corner.

(All of which is by nature simply my take on how plausible it is. As always, YMMV.)

 

[Kereminde]

Note that by Clan ideology the Clan that becomes IlClan effectively resurrects the Star League.

Of course, reality sets in and any Clan getting there would very likely have their victory immediately declared void by their rivals for whatever shenanigans they can whip up. I mean, there's Clan ideology and Clan behavior and they don't always . . . have congruence, and you'd better not suggest that to their faces. But that is neither here, nor there, and remains one of the reasons I actually kinda don't want them gone - it's too amusing to watch them fail to recognize they share enough of the same flawed behavior as their counterparts.

 

[Timaeus]

Of course, reality sets in and any Clan getting there would very likely have their victory immediately declared void by their rivals for whatever shenanigans they can whip up. I mean, there's Clan ideology and Clan behavior and they don't always . . . have congruence, and you'd better not suggest that to their faces. But that is neither here, nor there, and remains one of the reasons I actually kinda don't want them gone - it's too amusing to watch them fail to recognize they share enough of the same flawed behavior as their counterparts.

Oh not just the Clans, but the Great Houses too. It's going to be interesting how this all plays out in the upcoming future timeline.

 

[Kereminde]

Oh not just the Clans, but the Great Houses too. It's going to be interesting how this all plays out in the upcoming future timeline.

Which is why I like to avoid thinking about mucking about with events too much, because it's a process to get from there to here. I gave my "one thing" some time ago, which is less about changing the IP than giving no reason for it to have been hounded for so long. (And I want my Whammy dammit.) I would prefer not to change by excision (removing something), edition (changing something) but rather through expansion (adding something).

The Clan Invasion is boring because of how it's written to focus a lot on a particular conflict and 'Clans winning all the time'? Add to it, with emphasis on some instances where they paid heavy prices for their wins or where they simply found no purchase. Or show other events which were taking place which didn't involve the Clans - it's a big 'world', something else has to be going on in the 3050s which doesn't involve them.

The FedCom Civil War is boring because it's two sides slugging it out and there's a cartoonishly evil obvious antagonist with an obvious protagonist? How does this war going on affect the other three Houses and what's going on elsewhere because of this shake-up?

The Jihad? Dammit, give it some focus and some attention so it's not quite so abrupt.

Dark Ages? Fricking hell, there's a ton of stories which can be told in there which aren't because the Jihad left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Honestly, I'm more nervous trying to sprint through into the next era is going to fall flat as it winds up making everyone give up and just build pillow forts around their favorite eras and pretend nothing else happened.

 

[Cyclone Knight]

Everything I have to say about the Jihad and Dark Age has been said. Clans, I feel, could use some reworking, including the way the Clan Invasion was written; Helm core tech should have been better known and present as a point of comparison, for example, and the Clans should have been given enough logistical backing to not look like plot armor.

But the biggest thing I would change? The one major thing I'd change without wholesale rewriting?

I'd retcon Katherine Steiner-Davion into having been replaced with a Capellan doppelgänger by Romano some time around the Outreach meeting. Just as Max tried to do with Hanse a generation ago.

 

[Landsknecht]

Have you looked into Empires Aflame?

(Belatedly) Holy crap, definitely going to be checking this out when I get back home. Thanks for the link - had never heard of this!

 

[CSM101]

Wouldn't have offed Justin Allard in the way he was. Gravely wounded, and out of combat until the tail end of the initial invasion, sure, to keep the consequences of it happening. I like Candace killing Romana, and the consequences therein, but a guy like Justin should have died during the invasion, or the War of Refusal, heroically defending the IS against the Clans

 

[Marowi]

A mildly old thread, but I can't resist offering some unpopular opinions here...

The Clans are fine. Not only are the Clans fine, but, in my opinion, the franchise was at its zenith during and due to the Clans and their introduction to the franchise. In particular, consider the popularity seen following the release of MechWarrior 2, the "Somerset Strikers" TV series, and the "Twilight of the Clans" novel line. For many people, and I'd even hazard a guess that for most fans of the BattleTech franchise, their entry into the fandom was due to the Clan-related IP. Certain details could have been executed better, but by and large this was one of the best things to happen to BattleTech.

I actually love Word of Blake as villains. A creepy techno-cult genocidally bent on destroying the galaxy that forces more or less everyone else to band together? Cool. They were the freshest and most distinct villains in the storyline. Here's what I would have changed, though (and I have had this argument on the MWO forums), I would never have called it the "jihad" and especially during the height of the War on Terror, which coincided with the addition of this era to the fiction. I've heard that allegedly it was in the works pre-9/11, but why go through with it? I cringe whenever I hear the name of this era, because whether intentional or not it just strikes me as a sort-of callous cash-in on the War on Terror and associated memes. And I'm not even sure that the MechAssault games (I think the only games actually set during the Jihad?) call it that -- for the same reasons. This was a poor decision that I think probably chased a lot of people away from the franchise altogether, and I think contributed to long-time fans refusing to embrace the era. Something as simple as that.

 

[Aradiel]

I've heard that allegedly it was in the works pre-9/11, but why go through with it? I cringe whenever I hear the name of this era, because whether intentional or not it just strikes me as a sort-of callous cash-in on the War on Terror and associated memes.

There was a time when people didn't get offended by everything. The word simply means holy war. It meant that long before some planes hit some buildings and the mass pearl clutching that followed. You could just as easily ask why change it?

This was a poor decision that I think probably chased a lot of people away from the franchise altogether

I agree that it turned a lot of people off, I disagree about the reasons. It certainly wasn't the name. A lot of people really did not like the massive changes. I know I stopped caring about the fiction when they decided to just jump ahead 80 years. It wasn't like Trump getting elected and all the hilarity that ensued there.