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CCR_of_the_Code

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Incredible.
If anything at all, it is amazing that the Confederacy survived until Gettysberg- I would like to think that in 9/10 games the Confederacy is well and dead by 1863. The Union defeates where a series of flukes due to a bunch of dead-brained generals. And human interevention would almost certainly have something to do with that.
 

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Originally posted by Snow King
The victory caused the British and the French to recognize the Confederacy, and provide support against the Union.

Which isn't based on what the Brits were proposing to do, but that's neither here nor there.
 

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The Brits were not to keen on fighting the union for so little gain lets not forget the tens of thousands of irish coming into the US every every year for a quite awhile by then... There was a government offical quoted in new york as saying he could raise an extra 100,000 men from new york city and state to fight the brits/canada in a week should there be war with the UK without too much effort and there were reasons to believe him. A simple off shore blockade would also be costly in men and ships as the union at this time did have a navy worth the name and since I highly doubt the UK would be willing to send even half their fight to the US....
 

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Originally posted by Snow King
I believe that both nations were ready to recognize the Confederacy right before Gettysburg, but they decided not to because of the Union victory. If the Confederates had won, they would most likely have stepped in.

The most likely turning point that I can see would be just before Antiem. If Lee's plan had not fallen into the hands of McClellan, then likely, the Union would have lost and the Confederacy survived. That is what Turtledove's Great War series supposes.

The victory caused the British and the French to recognize the Confederacy, and provide support against the Union.

There was no chance for British intervention after Anititem
 

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Originally posted by CCR_of_the_Code
Incredible.
If anything at all, it is amazing that the Confederacy survived until Gettysberg- I would like to think that in 9/10 games the Confederacy is well and dead by 1863. The Union defeates where a series of flukes due to a bunch of dead-brained generals. And human interevention would almost certainly have something to do with that.

True yet the length and total desrtuction that that wrought was instrumental in the destruction of slavery and the planter aristocracy of the South. If the war was quick and easiliy won then this would not have been so.
 

CCR_of_the_Code

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Farnkly, the CSA should be close to Byzantium x 6. There was never any chance of them surviving. At lest the Byzantines had good relations with some of the Ottoman Emporers, and had European friends. The CSA had no friends, no industrialization and the good old farmin boys where dying off like priests in a Dutch whore-house in every camp across every battlefield.
 

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Originally posted by Timothy Ortiz
There was no chance for British intervention after Anititem

Which is what I said.

The only way for the Confederates to survive would have been for their General Lee to pull off some great victory in good time. Otherwise, they are dead.
 

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I imagine the confederacy would be similar to South Africa, although with a must greater white population. I'll bet one of the first AARs will be a confederate one.
 

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Or HOW I LEARNED TO STOP WORRYING AND LOVE THE CIVIL WAR.
 

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Wasn't one of the biggest problems in the early stages of the war Union generals unwilling to take the losses to beat the confederates back, and that Grant did so well because he was willing to take the losses (Battle of the Crater comes to mind)?
 

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Originally posted by Helium Hound
Wasn't one of the biggest problems in the early stages of the war Union generals unwilling to take the losses to beat the confederates back, and that Grant did so well because he was willing to take the losses (Battle of the Crater comes to mind)?
The biggest problem for the Union early on was McClellan, because he some kind of complex where he always thought he was outnumbered. I think he would have taken losses for victory, but the thought that his army would be decimated by the overwhelming number of Confederates, when in actually he had almost twice as many men.

The Battle of the Crater was a disaster for the Union, it didn't push the Confederates back, and the thousands of casualties accomplished nothing. More than anything, Grant's success in the East was due to his previous successes in the West. Losing the Mississippi River and having Sherman drive to the sea decimated the Southern economy. Lee was only broken by Grant after Sherman was starting to come up on his rear.
 

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Originally posted by CCR_of_the_Code
Farnkly, the CSA should be close to Byzantium x 6. There was never any chance of them surviving.
I don't think you are giving the Confederacy very much respect. History is full of examples of countries that faced overwhelming odds and still won, for example USA over UK, Switzerland over the Hapsburgs, Vietnam over the USA. Conquering an enemy is many times harder than defending against invasion.
Originally posted by CCR_of_the_Code
At lest the Byzantines had good relations with some of the Ottoman Emporers, and had European friends. The CSA had no friends...
Everyone loves a winner. If the Confederacy had won some more battles early on (Antietam) they might have acheived recognition.
 

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Originally posted by Legate
The Brits were not to keen on fighting the union for so little gain...
I believe the Brits sent 10,000 soldiers to Canada during the Trent affair. I agree though that there wasn't much point to it.
Originally posted by Legate
There was a government offical quoted in new york as saying he could raise an extra 100,000 men from new york city and state to fight the brits/canada in a week should there be war with the UK
Probably almost true, since NYC was a highly Democratic city and and had very low volunteer rates for the war against the Confederates.
 

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I mentioned the battle of the crater because it showed how willing Grant was to take casualties to win a battle. Granted it got him nowhere. I wasn't aware the Union thought they where out numbered. Of course the Rebel Cry was pretty intimidating, you cannot beat shouting at a guy before a battle that you are going to kill him for his shows, lol. I just always assumed they didn't want to take the losses they needed to beat Lee, but we all know what they say about assuming. It is really amazing how lots of those tactical victories that where won by the North had been due to just moving the men where they needed to be no matter the cost.
PS I thought that thing about NYC, and their army had to do with the large Irish population?
 

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Originally posted by CCR_of_the_Code
Incredible.
If anything at all, it is amazing that the Confederacy survived until Gettysberg- I would like to think that in 9/10 games the Confederacy is well and dead by 1863. The Union defeates where a series of flukes due to a bunch of dead-brained generals. And human interevention would almost certainly have something to do with that.

Check the writtings and contemporary statements from a minor figure of the Union side of that war, William T. Sherman. He surely did not share your sentiments.;)
 

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Originally posted by MacGregor
Check the writtings and contemporary statements from a minor figure of the Union side of that war, William T. Sherman. He surely did not share your sentiments.;)

You want to tell us that the March to the Sea was more than a bathing trip? ;)
 

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Grant's genius was being not being deterred by casualties, rather than being willing to take them. It's a minor distinction, but a distinction nonetheless. Take for example the Battle of the Wilderness. It was his first face to face meeting with the ANV. In that battle both sides took heavy casualties, with the South probably gaining a small tactical victory, at worst, it was a draw. Prior to Grant, in the East, no matter who the commander was, the AoP would have headed back to Washington, tail tucked between it's legs. The morning after this battle though, the Confederates could hear the Union bands playing and realized they were moving South, via a flanking manuever, rather than north, as had always been the case in the past. Grant wasn't stupid, he knew continued fighting would net little, but he also knew that the North had the manpower to easily absorb the casualties, and that the South did not. Such a simple idea, but one hard to grasp in the face of setback after setback. Even in victory, the Union generals in the East prior to Grant couldn't seem to grasp that simple equation. For example, victories at Antietum and Getteysburg netted the north little, because of the unwillingness of the Northern generals to follow up despite a badly maimed foe and vastly superior numbers, including large numbers of men who had seen little or no fighting. Grant changed the equation, and it was his persistance that ultimately doomed the Confederacy (with some help from the equally persistant Sherman). By 1863, the Union had almost equalled the South in the quality of it's troops. But it took a year for it to equal it in the quality of their leaders (at least in the East).
 

Tim O

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The crater was Burnsides fault, the incompetent bastard! I'm embarrased that he's from Rhode Island! :eek: :mad:

Also Grant proportionally lost less men than Lee, in the Wilderness & Spotsylvannia Grant lost 32,000 of 120,000 men. That's 26.6% Lee lost 18,000 out of 64,000 men, that's 28.125%. This is fighting that stretched from May 5th to the 19th. The armies skirmishers at least were in contact during all this time, such sustained fighting had never occured before and in the long run the Confederacy was unable to withstand it. During the 20th and 21st Grant tried to flank Lee again and Lee followed with the Armies still in contact untill they reached the North Anna River, then on to Cold Harbor, then to Petersburg with no let up in the fighting. Sometimes it would dwindill down to the picketts exchanging fire, but it would then flare up again into full fledge battle. Once Grant marched south the Confedracy was doomed for with him in charge the Army of the Potomac would hammar the Army of Northern Virginia untill it could take no more.
 

IEX Totalview

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Originally posted by Timothy Ortiz
Also Grant proportionally lost less men than Lee, in the Wilderness & Spotsylvannia Grant lost 32,000 of 120,000 men. That's 26.6% Lee lost 18,000 out of 64,000 men, that's 28.125%. This is fighting that stretched from May 5th to the 19th.

Still, considering Grant outnumbered Lee almost 2:1, expecting an outright victory would not have been unreasonable. Not that I'm criticizing Grant; I think he was one of the best military commanders of the war, and, like Sherman, understood what would be needed to defeat the South was constant pressure. Grant was the one who decided that the focus should be not on capturing Confederate cities, but destroying Confederate armies, and once that decision was made the South was doomed.

So Grant was one of the best Union commanders, and essential for the North's victory.
 

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Originally posted by IEX Totalview
Still, considering Grant outnumbered Lee almost 2:1, expecting an outright victory would not have been unreasonable. Not that I'm criticizing Grant; I think he was one of the best military commanders of the war, and, like Sherman, understood what would be needed to defeat the South was constant pressure. Grant was the one who decided that the focus should be not on capturing Confederate cities, but destroying Confederate armies, and once that decision was made the South was doomed.

So Grant was one of the best Union commanders, and essential for the North's victory.

The works that Grant was attacking at Spotsylvannia were very strong, the strongest of the war so far. And the tangels of the Wilderness allows a smaller force who knows the land to apply disporportinate combat power to the point of engagement.