• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

jju_57

Banned
47 Badges
Oct 13, 2003
13.775
2.006
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
Your "AI" is still much better than vanilla AI. If your British AI took 2 years to do something than vanilla AI it takes 9 years ans still nothing happens ;) If your British AI defeated Italians and Germans in north Africa then vanilla AI manages to lose Egypt and even Iraq to Italians. If your American and British AI managed to land in North Africa, Italy and France then vanilla AI manages to land somewhere in Island or Norway and if manages to land in France then is easily crushed.

Your Soviet AI managed to hold Leningrad and Moscow then vanilla AI simply hands over Leningrad even to Finish if they are at war. If your German AI sent armies to Caucasus to hunt oil and Stalingrad then vanilla AI sends them to Tundra to hunt white bears.

No my German AI failed to take Lenningrad or Moscow because it was super slow to attack when it had the advantage. It wasn't the UK AI doing great in NA it was the Italian and German AI not sending troops till after they already lost there. And my US AI would do an invasion in Italy only to sit there and not move till after the enemy showed up.

As I said it wasn't that my AI did a good job on the defense it was how bad the AI did on the attack even when they had the opportunity to do so.

And the German AI refused to research any further in encryption because it felt that the other side would never reseach decryption.
 

unmerged(47028)

Field Marshal
Aug 1, 2005
3.771
2
No my German AI failed to take Lenningrad or Moscow because it was super slow to attack when it had the advantage. It wasn't the UK AI doing great in NA it was the Italian and German AI not sending troops till after they already lost there. And my US AI would do an invasion in Italy only to sit there and not move till after the enemy showed up.

As I said it wasn't that my AI did a good job on the defense it was how bad the AI did on the attack even when they had the opportunity to do so.

And the German AI refused to research any further in encryption because it felt that the other side would never reseach decryption.

While your American AI was sitting in Italy, vanilla AI sits in Washington for 9 years ;)

In NA vanilla British AI surrender to Italians without much fuss even without Italian reinforcements, and Italians never receive German reinforcements anyway.

If your AI is not inventive and aggressive enough then vanilla AI is even twice of three times less aggressive or inventive this is the main vanilla AI problem.

One other thing where vanilla AI completely fails is evacuation it would never make Dunkerque or any other similar operation.
 

Ricox

Field Marshal
58 Badges
Sep 24, 2009
3.393
1.550
  • Deus Vult
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
-fixed a bug where the GER AI would keep spamming new divisions even when it was low on MP and most existing divisions were low on strength.

Also: No more talk about Canadians or who liberated what. Funny thread is for fun stuff.

I was just saying that the Baltic states weren't liberated... D'OH! I wasn't discussing about it AFAIK. Anyways, mnplastic, are you aware that the OP is supposed to resemble what actually happend during WWII or you're just bashing the epic HoI 3 1.0 AI?
 

unmerged(47028)

Field Marshal
Aug 1, 2005
3.771
2
I was just saying that the Baltic states weren't liberated... D'OH! I wasn't discussing about it AFAIK. Anyways, mnplastic, are you aware that the OP is supposed to resemble what actually happend during WWII or you're just bashing the epic HoI 3 1.0 AI?

:) Yes I understand it :) I am just saying that even with all their failures RL generals performed beter than game AI.
 

jju_57

Banned
47 Badges
Oct 13, 2003
13.775
2.006
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
While your American AI was sitting in Italy, vanilla AI sits in Washington for 9 years ;)

In NA vanilla British AI surrender to Italians without much fuss even without Italian reinforcements, and Italians never receive German reinforcements anyway.

If your AI is not inventive and aggressive enough then vanilla AI is even twice of three times less aggressive or inventive this is the main vanilla AI problem.

One other thing where vanilla AI completely fails is evacuation it would never make Dunkerque or any other similar operation.

Are you claiming you never once saw or read about vanilla USA AI doing invasions? Vanilla German AI sending troops to NA? Vanilla UK AI winning in NA? Vanilla SU AI never won in the east? Etc etc? Maybe you have your own AI that is different from what I had in my tests.

Since it has lost its 'fun' let me get serious. We as humans in this game have two major advantages. We have knowledge of past events and we have knowledge of future events. The AI in the game and the real life leaders did not have these advantages. The gripes are based on how a human playing the game would play as the AI. In 1936 very few people would know that CV's would be so important and powerful. Or that massing tanks would be better than parceling them out to individual units. One side tried it and it worked. The other side guessed wrong. Most of the war was based on one side trying to figure out what would be good enough to win. If they won they were called a genius. If not they are a loser.

Next time you play the game ask yourself why you just made the decision you did. You will be shocked to realize its because of what you know will happen in the future. And if the game is ever changed to where we 'hard wire' the AI to do X to counter what you did, you will then do Y in response. The real life leaders did not have the luxury of mulligans and do overs. How many of you won their very first game of HOI ever played? I know I got creamed in my first HOI1 game many years ago. But as a human I adapated. Unfortunately the real life leaders and the AI can't do that.

All I was trying to do is to show that while the AI makes poor decisions so did humans when faced with similiar situations. Can the AI be imporved? I sure hope so. Should it be improved? I'm sure PI and everyone would want that. But let's be a little honest with ourselves. We as humans have a super big advantage that might never be possible to overcome.

I hope most enjoyed my little sidetrack and thank you all for the nice comments.
 

WarDog

whatever
60 Badges
Aug 2, 2003
2.303
96
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For the Motherland
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Galactic Assault
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Iron Cross
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
jju_57
Respect for a brilliant, intelligent and funny thread. Classic stuff! :)
 

unmerged(47028)

Field Marshal
Aug 1, 2005
3.771
2
Are you claiming you never once saw or read about vanilla USA AI doing invasions? Vanilla German AI sending troops to NA? Vanilla UK AI winning in NA? Vanilla SU AI never won in the east? Etc etc? Maybe you have your own AI that is different from what I had in my tests.

I went through 3 pages of AARs. Only once Soviet AI beat Germans because Japan player invaded Europe fighting against Axis.

Only once American AI successfully invaded Europe and even managed to liberate France, but then German and Italian AI beat them back and destroyed invading forces.

Only once British AI won in NA but because Polish player conquered Italy.

I am afraid it is not just my AI ;)


This example plainly shows that non Axis AI perform sometimes better just because player directly or indirectly help it.

In my current Lithuanian game Americans landed in Europe several times too, but sent only hand full of divisions which were destroyed by German AI without much problem.

The problem with AI is that it can not perform mass landing in wide area and then support it.
 

unmerged(47028)

Field Marshal
Aug 1, 2005
3.771
2
How many of you won their very first game of HOI ever played? I know I got creamed in my first HOI1 game many years ago. But as a human I adapated. Unfortunately the real life leaders and the AI can't do that.

I think I won my very first HOI3 game as Germany on hard or very hard level. However, I lost my first game as Lithuania ;)

I am not claiming I am some sort of genius. I just had a lot of experience playing hundred or so different strategic games. Irrespectively what game was or what era everywhere worked the same strategy - mass your forces and overrun your enemy's scattered forces one by one even if enemy has much bigger overall army.

Current HOI3 AI do not understand that simple strategy. It tends evenly spread forces or put approximately same force as enemy in front.

Your AI or RL generals knew that strategy quite well. The problem that other general learned how to counter that strategy. A very good example of that was Kursk.
 

unmerged(229769)

Second Lieutenant
4 Badges
Oct 5, 2010
117
0
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Semper Fi
Are you claiming you never once saw or read about vanilla USA AI doing invasions? Vanilla German AI sending troops to NA? Vanilla UK AI winning in NA? Vanilla SU AI never won in the east? Etc etc? Maybe you have your own AI that is different from what I had in my tests.

Since it has lost its 'fun' let me get serious. We as humans in this game have two major advantages. We have knowledge of past events and we have knowledge of future events. The AI in the game and the real life leaders did not have these advantages. The gripes are based on how a human playing the game would play as the AI. In 1936 very few people would know that CV's would be so important and powerful. Or that massing tanks would be better than parceling them out to individual units. One side tried it and it worked. The other side guessed wrong. Most of the war was based on one side trying to figure out what would be good enough to win. If they won they were called a genius. If not they are a loser.

Next time you play the game ask yourself why you just made the decision you did. You will be shocked to realize its because of what you know will happen in the future. And if the game is ever changed to where we 'hard wire' the AI to do X to counter what you did, you will then do Y in response. The real life leaders did not have the luxury of mulligans and do overs. How many of you won their very first game of HOI ever played? I know I got creamed in my first HOI1 game many years ago. But as a human I adapated. Unfortunately the real life leaders and the AI can't do that.

All I was trying to do is to show that while the AI makes poor decisions so did humans when faced with similiar situations. Can the AI be imporved? I sure hope so. Should it be improved? I'm sure PI and everyone would want that. But let's be a little honest with ourselves. We as humans have a super big advantage that might never be possible to overcome.

I hope most enjoyed my little sidetrack and thank you all for the nice comments.


+1
 

death1081

Major
27 Badges
Feb 2, 2011
515
1
  • Knights of Honor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Pride of Nations
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2
  • Majesty 2
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Magicka
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • For The Glory
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion

So I wait for next year, and this time I conquer all the way to Stalingrad and I'm about to take the city, the Russians only have like 300 defending troops left, and then what? My idiotic AI Romanian and Italian allies get crushed by a Soviet attack, because they haven't bothered to research any doctrines or upgrade their troops or anything. And next thing I know the SU has pocketed half my Panzer divisions because the AI couldn't defend my flanks, and when I try to rescue them guess what? Out of supply again.


To my knowlege thats kinda what happend in realife. The Romanians couldn't hold the line behind Stalingrad and broke! That left the entire German 6th Army cut off.
 

No idea

Field Marshal
52 Badges
Jan 11, 2010
4.005
1.196
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Great reading jju57¡. In discharge of real WW II leaders, it has to be said that RL is "slightly" more complicated than this game, where we just follow a few rules, and it can be easily discerned what´s the best choice. And, above all, we have the huge adventage of retroespective: we know what happened, why and which were the mistakes.
 

Slan

Mr. Fixit
28 Badges
Oct 30, 2009
14.291
36
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Penumbra - Black Plague
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Majesty 2
  • Magicka
  • King Arthur II
  • Iron Cross
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Deus Vult
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
Stroke of genius, pure and simple.


On a more serious side.
@DerKomtur:

We as humans have a super big advantage that might never be possible to overcome.

Actually, taking away that hindsight advantage could be done in two ways:
i) Removing every single bit of historical scripting, so you won't know what to expect. Would that still be WWII? Of course not.
ii) Making the AI make all the minimax optimal decisions. Would that still be WWII? Of course not. Germany would probably be attacked by the Soviets at the moment they start going into France, which would have twice the strength as historical.

My point is that you can not have a game both historical and rational, because history is not rational. Some of the causes and effects can be modelled, but you can never get the same chain of events to always happen with a simulation. Life is stochastic.
 

Cybvep

Field Marshal
May 25, 2009
8.465
127
Hindsight can never be fully eliminated in a HOI-like game and some things will have to abstracted in one way or another because of the fact that it's not a simulation. Still, what the developers should strive for is to "nudge" the player and the AIs in the right direction without forcing things. Of course that life is not deterministic, but I wouldn't confuse the words "rational" and "gamey". I also think that the devs should rethink their approach to information availability to the player. IMO it should be more tied to espionage. It plays little role in the game ATM, while it should be important and IRL it was all about information-gathering. You know that ~95% of the time the war will start in 1939 if Germany is played by the AI and that there will be no Japanese-Soviet war and that France will be defeated in 1940 and that battleships will be obsolete by 1940s and... The historical leaders didn't know that. Of course, 70 years after those events everyone is a great general on paper.
 

Fewrfreyut

Major
113 Badges
Dec 19, 2009
553
8
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Victoria 2
  • BATTLETECH
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
My point is that you can not have a game both historical and rational, because history is not rational. Some of the causes and effects can be modelled, but you can never get the same chain of events to always happen with a simulation. Life is stochastic.

+1

thank you for saying this Slan. You are exactly right. And, what further complicates our views of the past is that we often skew our views and even, without knowing it often, perceive the people of the past as of the same mind as ourselves (meaning the exact same rights and wrongs or views on life and death). But, we take for granted so many of the advances we have. Hell, in the field of medical science back even in the first half of the 19th centuries, you were more likely to die from infection after surgery than from your wound itself (the top development in medical science which prevented this was for doctors to wash their hands and sterilize equipment before use... and it took them until the mid 19th century to figure this out!). Life expectancy was shorter. That would have a huge impact on the way society would have thought and acted. Then factor in socio-cultural ideologies circulating at the time and you realize you have a very different world on your hands.

Now, the second world war is not as distant as the example I used, but the same principle applies. Simply put, times were different then, and even though we have HUGE records on the war, we don't know everything. A fellow student of mine put it this way in class "I'm writing out these lecture notes as if I firmly believe what's being taught to me, but in my mind I could be thinking the exact opposite, or about something else entirely. But people studying this class in the future will never know, because they'll only have these notes to work with."

What makes history (particularly military history) is often looking at outcomes, and then trying to derive motives from those outcomes. But we also have to remember the ends don't necessarily justify the means. I don't even mean morality in this instance, I mean the outcome of something can often be completely different from what was intended.

Let's take an example for a second. the German Reich in the war. Looking back, we don't understand some of the decisions the Nazis made, especially in regards to the Holocaust and the final year of the war. "Why did they devote MORE military personnel and equipment to death camps when they were losing a war? Why even kill off the population of Jews you were using as slave labour? it doesn't make sense." It's true, it doesn't make sense. From OUR perspective. But from THEIR perspective, it made total sense. The core foundation of Nazism is RACIAL PURITY and anti semitism. This by that point (44-45) in the war was more their goal than winning the war.

it seems like I've jumped around alot in this comment (I have), but there is a point to this. What we percieve as rational in our hindsight must not be mistaken as what those of the past must have also percieved, particularly in the case of nazi Germany, where much of their leadership was NOT thinking rationally as we would define it. Likewise, much of the decisions other leaders made at the time don't seem rational to us because we're largely basing our opinions on the OUTCOMES rather than their perspective of the situation.

There's a few old assumptions about history and the past, one of which is "Hindsight is 20/20" but as we know here, nothing could be further from the truth.
 

juv95hrn

Field Marshal
52 Badges
Jan 13, 2000
5.785
8
Visit site
  • For the Motherland
  • For The Glory
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Deus Vult
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
In any case, no matter how broken it is, if the AI can't handle it, it wont get fixed. That is very frustrating and sometimes makes me wish there was no AI. Its not like the AI is such uberplayer after all even if you don't fix broken features.