If Scotland forms Great Britain, they should use the Scottish Union Jack

[Donlad]

Just a minor suggestion here. Came up with this idea when I saw that we were getting something similar to HOI4's Cosmetic Tags in the Dev Diaries. Unfortunately, I am not entirely certain if EU4's version of this system will be able to change flags as well. We have only seen name changes so far, such as "Kingdom of God" or "Hanseatic League." Hopefully, flags can be altered because otherwise this can't be implemented without a new and rather unjustified tag.

Really it's all in the title, if Scotland forms Great Britain, then Britain should have the Scottish Union Jack. Please note that this version of the Union Jack wasn't official. But it was flown in Scotland on occasion during the time period. Example below:

You could argue that Scotland (or a Scottish dynasty, take your pick) formed Great Britain, and like I said, they didn't officially use this flag. And you'd be right.

But I feel that this is justified because it shows off who united the kingdoms in game. This would differentiate it from the normal tag. It would be a display of which is the dominant kingdom and political force in the union.

Also it would be a nice little thing to gloat about as a player. Visual proof boasting "Haha I kicked your butt!"

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Again, I don't understand, tartan is just a type of cloth, it's not a colour, there is red tartan, blue tartan, green tartan and more, just because a nation had some people wear green clothes doesn't mean they should have their national colours replaced with their neighbours national colours. Imagine if Ireland and Scotland were both on the map, the green on green would be horrible. Scotland should remain yellow, and Gaeldom should be blue, it works the way it is currently.

-----> https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanDetails?ref=3683

If I post the link it is safe, I guess. But the colours and patter in use for the Scottish units, unless I am very much mistaken, is the colour and patter of the tartan specific to the House of Stuart, which makes sense to match the Royal Standard and differentiate from the isles, assorted Irish and Ireland, Gaeldom and anything that England/Great Britain may spawn.

I just really hate the Ronald MacDonald effect. It is a sore to the eye.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

-----> https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanDetails?ref=3683

If I post the link it is safe, I guess. But the colours and patter in use for the Scottish units, unless I am very much mistaken, is the colour and patter of the tartan specific to the House of Stuart, which makes sense to match the Royal Standard and differentiate from the isles, assorted Irish and Ireland, Gaeldom and anything that England/Great Britain may spawn.

I just really hate the Ronald MacDonald effect. It is a sore to the eye.

The issue is that noble troops, such as knights, would often have symbols and colours of their monarch, this case would be yellow and red from the coat of arms of Scotland, while more peasant troops would be often wearing whatever or more cultural battle clothes in the case of the Gaelic people. Don't get me wrong, I hate the yellow and red too, but I don't mind it on the early units, it's the later units it feels weird, but if a Scotland survives until the 19th century, it kind of makes sense that they would keep those colours. There were plenty of uniforms back then that we can look at now and say look silly, but back then they might've been viewed more favourably.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

The issue is that noble troops, such as knights, would often have symbols and colours of their monarch, this case would be yellow and red from the coat of arms of Scotland, while more peasant troops would be often wearing whatever or more cultural battle clothes in the case of the Gaelic people. Don't get me wrong, I hate the yellow and red too, but I don't mind it on the early units, it's the later units it feels weird, but if a Scotland survives until the 19th century, it kind of makes sense that they would keep those colours. There were plenty of uniforms back then that we can look at now and say look silly, but back then they might've been viewed more favourably.

I nonetheless do not think Rob Roy MacGregor would walk about dressed like a fast food clown. As diverse as clothing may be, for the common men earthly and/or darker colours were usual for overall dressing while bright colours would feature more on tartan, be it for the plaid/kilt or whatever other piece of clothing made with it, specially but not only after the 1770s when each clan and what have you would adopt a pattern of their own.
Continental styled clothing would mostly follow whatever was trendy at the time, but that is not the point.

To my knowledge the only widespread use of tacky colours for everyone was either medieval or for the navy, and even then both were barely uniform and standardised until after the whole Butcher Cumberland thing when direct British influence became much more, well, direct.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

I nonetheless do not think Rob Roy MacGregor would walk about dressed like a fast food clown. As diverse as clothing may be, for the common men earthly and/or darker colours were usual for overall dressing while bright colours would feature more on tartan, be it for the plaid/kilt or whatever other piece of clothing made with it, specially but not only after the 1770s when each clan and what have you would adopt a pattern of their own.
Continental styled clothing would mostly follow whatever was trendy at the time, but that is not the point.

To my knowledge the only widespread use of tacky colours for everyone was either medieval or for the navy, and even then both were barely uniform and standardised until after the whole Butcher Cumberland thing when direct British influence became much more, well, direct.

Don't forget that Scotland's coat of arms existed before McDonald's, maybe try not looking at it through current eyes and look at the proper time period of the game? We already have the weird issue of Portugal being green to represent modern day Portugal despite the fact that back then their main colours were blue and white. We don't need to be applying more modern current day stuff to a game in 1444 to 1821, just my thoughts.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Don't forget that Scotland's coat of arms existed before McDonald's, maybe try not looking at it through current eyes and look at the proper time period of the game? We already have the weird issue of Portugal being green to represent modern day Portugal despite the fact that back then their main colours were blue and white. We don't need to be applying more modern current day stuff to a game in 1444 to 1821, just my thoughts.

It could be pink with glitter and ribbons for all I care, as long as it is both historic and something not so incredibly painful to stare at four hours on end. Also, McDonald implies Irish ancestry, while MacDonald is the usual form of the name. And I never bothered to research fast food history in depth. Watched a documentary about it on A&E nearly twenty years ago, but that was that.

Anyhow, point is that the current colours seem to be more flexible than you seem to realise. The first man-at-arms uniform is accurate despite I really doubting anyone outside of the royal family would wear the Royal Banner as clothing (someone pointed out to me that Robert, the Bruce, wears the exact same uniform on Civilization VII-ish or something, which is probably not a very reliable reference), but from there onward the army was much more of a informal militia than a proper standing army. Originally tartan patterns were not associated with a clan or a family or what not, that only begun to happen around the late 1700s and/or early 1800s (as far as I know, there is no formal account of it until Robert Burns and Sir Walter Scott created a romantic idealised past), so anyone would wear whatever clothes and tartan they pleased, with the possible exception of the Royal Army that was abysmally small when compared to the Clan Chieftan's and Laird's "militias". The fact Scotland was a rather lawless place in the Highlands and at the southern border makes the idea of outlaws like Reivers (yes, I know they were also English) or the afore mentioned Rob Roy MacGregor more accurate than a idea of a standing army with a standartised uniform. And with any colours being historically acceptable, that sickening yellow-red abomination is a torture to the eyes. Also not very immersive, since the romantic idea of Scotland involves earthly and darker colours, which incidentally were the ones people historically wore.

The exception, as someone somewhere pointed out, is that the later uniforms evolved under British rule, so they would probably use either red or whatever colour was associated with said battalion, regiment, and so on. This scene and this scene from Waterloo show the Napoleonic Era uniforms well, and accurately as far as I can tell. Honestly, until standard uniforms were introduced under the British, any colour and patter makes sense since no one knows exactly which colours and patterns were worn then, and most were random ones that this or that tailor sew because he felt like doing it.

That said, since anything makes sense, using the National Tartan that was only conceived centuries later is not totally inaccurate and much more pleasant to the eye. Other historical patterns and colours could be used, but I have ambiguous feeling about using the Black Watch's. It is one from out of the time frame of the game, but I am more concerned with the fact the Black Watch did some terrible things during The Troubles, so having Black Watchmen invading Ireland is something we can live without, if you ask me. It is not within the period in question, as I said.

Edit: grammar.

Addendum: Yes, the Duke of Wellington is also Captain von Trapp. And they both are also Argeir. Funny to learn the Voice from someone from The Sound of Music who fought at Waterloo, no? I will show myself out now.