If Scotland forms Great Britain, they should use the Scottish Union Jack

[Donlad]

Just a minor suggestion here. Came up with this idea when I saw that we were getting something similar to HOI4's Cosmetic Tags in the Dev Diaries. Unfortunately, I am not entirely certain if EU4's version of this system will be able to change flags as well. We have only seen name changes so far, such as "Kingdom of God" or "Hanseatic League." Hopefully, flags can be altered because otherwise this can't be implemented without a new and rather unjustified tag.

Really it's all in the title, if Scotland forms Great Britain, then Britain should have the Scottish Union Jack. Please note that this version of the Union Jack wasn't official. But it was flown in Scotland on occasion during the time period. Example below:

You could argue that Scotland (or a Scottish dynasty, take your pick) formed Great Britain, and like I said, they didn't officially use this flag. And you'd be right.

But I feel that this is justified because it shows off who united the kingdoms in game. This would differentiate it from the normal tag. It would be a display of which is the dominant kingdom and political force in the union.

Also it would be a nice little thing to gloat about as a player. Visual proof boasting "Haha I kicked your butt!"

 

[moscal]

Current EU4 haven't mechanism of dynamic flags. 1 TAG have 1 flag. Create GB with other "Union Jack" will mean also "create new TAG".

 

[Donlad]

Yeah I don't want to make a new tag for this. Oh well

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

The Stuarts are a Scottish dynasty and they technically used the Union Jack we have now, which was only adopted in the 1800s and William & Mary reined in the mid 1600s, but the general idea applies. And to my knowledge while the Scottish Jack was used in Scotland for some time, it was never that much popular and I am not sure they would have used it even if Scotland could outpower England before/during/after the Union of Crowns. Plus Butcher Cumberland and what not later on.

Some people complain about the game using the Royal Standard instead of the St. Andrew flag that came to be soon after the start of the game, but that is a different issue.

 

[FantasticFwoosh]

Edge case, but maybe it could be subjective to the current selection of National Ideas, any scottish, highlander or manx ideas recieve the saltire, while any Irish nation forming GB with a irish idea set chosen instead of GB's NI's applies the Irish Harp.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Edge case, but maybe it could be subjective to the current selection of National Ideas, any scottish, highlander or manx ideas recieve the saltire, while any Irish nation forming GB with a irish idea set chosen instead of GB's NI's applies the Irish Harp.

I am not sure if Erin's harp would be a nice idea given that The Troubles is still in recent memory and adding it to the Union Jack would be controversial at best. Plus Irish is not in the British culture group, I do not think they can actually form Great Britain without a culture change, in which case they are no longer Irish.

Back when I used to change my main culture from Scottish to Highlander I had a few issues with that type of thing, the Welsh hating me for example. I think just keeping the Union Jack would be better, albeit a option to keep the capital in Edinburgh and Scottish as your main culture would be nice, but again England tends to be overwhelmingly more powerful due to the number of provinces and the trade node, so I am not sure how realistic that is either.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

Has others have mentioned, flags are tied to tags, so you can't have different flags depending on how a nation is formed. Even if you could have different flags for tags, I don't know if the "Scots Union Flag" as some have called it really deserves to be in the game. I mean, as much as I think it's fascinating to think of a Scottish led Great Britain, the flag really doesn't look as good as the flag that was used historically and I think the "Scots Union Flag" being rejected is proof that there was at least some sentiment to just stick to the one flag and that there wasn't really a need to have St. Andrew over St. George, especially since it was King James himself who ordered its creation. Now other flags that would look nice depending on how they form would be Italy and Germany for example, the Green-White-Red vertical tricolour was used as a Italian flag, but the royal coat of arms was from Savoy unifying Italy, if say Milan or Tuscany united Italy, a different coat of arms would be nice to see, in Germany's case depending on if one controls most of Germany or all, if one controls most then the Black-White-Red horizontal tricolour would be used, while if all of Germany is united then the Black-Red-Yellow flag could be used, just some fun ideas for possible EU V.

Regarding current flags of England, Scotland, Gaeldom and Ireland, I think England and Scotland are fine, the royal coat of arms should be used, as EU IV starts off in the Medieval Period still and the nobility were still very much a thing in the two Kingdoms, then with the formation of Great Britain and switching to the Union Flag/King's Colours makes sense since by that point in the game, the Medieval influence is leaving and we're entering the Modern Period, so moving away from royal coat of arms makes sense to me. Galedom I believe should have its flag changed, currently they use St. Andrew's Cross which is weird to see, I don't know what you could use but since Galedom is a tag you shouldn't see unless player involvement, I'd be more open to a fictional flag if no historical one could be found. Ireland's flag is good, since it was the British who gave the female version.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Scotland are fine, the royal coat of arms should be used, as EU IV starts off in the Medieval Period still and the nobility were still very much a thing in the two Kingdoms, then with the formation of Great Britain and switching to the Union Flag/King's Colours makes sense since by that point in the game, the Medieval influence is leaving and we're entering the Modern Period, so moving away from royal coat of arms makes sense to me.

But what about the Clans? Some of which barely even acknowledged the King's existence, let alone Royal authority?
Plus the whole Culloden and the JACOBITE REBELLION bits that were completely left out from the game. To me it feels a bit too much of a thing that would happen only at Bannockburn and those rare occasions were the entire country pretended not to hate each other to beat a foreign invader/invade someone.

But if everyone insists, I could even accept the Royal Banner as a national flag instead of a royal flag, but please switch the unit/borders colour to either green or blue. That yellow feels out of place.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

but please switch the unit/borders colour to either green or blue. That yellow feels out of place.

I think the yellow of Scotland works, considering the coat of arms was a yellow background and a blue Scotland beside France wouldn't look the best, I think Gaeldom being blue works better, but like I said, I would give them a different flag

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

I think the yellow of Scotland works, considering the coat of arms was a yellow background and a blue Scotland beside France wouldn't look the best, I think Gaeldom being blue works better, but like I said, I would give them a different flag

Maybe for the first unit, but later on when they wear tartan it would be both better and more accurate.

Seriously, they look like Ronald McDonald.
A dark green would look so much much much better. Could post examples, but intellectual property does not allow me to.



Edit: grammar again.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Maybe for the first unit, but later on when they wear tartan it would be both better and more accurate.
View attachment 579757
Seriously, they look like Ronald McDonald.
A dark green would look so much much much better. Could post examples, but intellectual property does not allow me to.



Edit: grammar again.

A friend just pointed out this scene from that boring Outlander series were Bonnie Prince Charlie is followed by the Royal Banner and the (I think) Stuart banner, so again, it is associated with the ruler and not the country. And I can get away with posting it since I obviously do not own the picture. (^___^)

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

Green should stay for Ireland, green should definitely not be the colour for Scotland, I get the Ronald McDonald thing but in a historical and most games, Scotland should be integrated into England to form Great Britain where we have red uniforms. People forget that while the Scottish might not like the English, at times, that they were British, so they should strive for Great Britain themselves and even if Scotland took England, the English land would likely dominate the country due to the land, population, resources and prestige.

 

[FantasticFwoosh]

~snip~ (not disregarding the arguements of irish sovereignty, but on the topic of alt-historical accounts the struggle of power is a can of worms i think we can best avoid to prevent leaning too far one way or another by ignoring the present day issue all-togehter. One person's villian is another's hero and all that.)

Albeit a option to keep the capital in Edinburgh and Scottish as your main culture would be nice, but again England tends to be overwhelmingly more powerful due to the number of provinces and the trade node, so I am not sure how realistic that is either.

No reason either, why it couldn't be a secret post formation change like the Haansa sucking up its trade league members and changing name, based on the logic of the clauszwitz engine of if's true's and falses. If you form GB as any minor you will have subdued England anyway by the pen (marrying into them) or the sword.

Imprint Scottish Culture Nationally

Requires: 65% of the british isles area is scottish culture, has a ruler with 3 or more diplomacy

Rewards - 'Scottish Cultural Reforms' modifier (no expiry date) - +5% tax increase across whole nation pernamently, saltire is adopted on the GB flag, culture conversion cost decreased by 10% within the GB isles area.

- +10% tax centred in Scottish Regions [or applicable regional area to that cultural group] for 5 years

Wouldnt affect the Anglophile achievement if every british cultural group (Irish, Manx, Cornish, Welsh, Scottish, English etc. (Briton & Norman (technically i guess this forces a cultural tie to France which might be interesting)) gets a similar one, and removed by changing tag.

 

[JaxElite]

Current EU4 haven't mechanism of dynamic flags. 1 TAG have 1 flag. Create GB with other "Union Jack" will mean also "create new TAG".

Im not sure that is true. AFAIK revolutionary countries don't change tag, nut do change flag. That doesn't mean that implementation will be easy or worth it though

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Green should stay for Ireland, green should definitely not be the colour for Scotland, I get the Ronald McDonald thing but in a historical and most games, Scotland should be integrated into England to form Great Britain where we have red uniforms. People forget that while the Scottish might not like the English, at times, that they were British, so they should strive for Great Britain themselves and even if Scotland took England, the English land would likely dominate the country due to the land, population, resources and prestige.

There is more than a Shade of Green.
But aye, nowadays everyone under H.M. the Queen is British, but IF Scotland stays independent it deserves its own colours, which really should be a clown selling you fries with your haggis. If it gets assimilated into Great Britain or forms Great Britain, alright, send in the red coats, but again if it stays independent it keeps its own colours and flags, while the English and everyone else keep theirs.

Historically, Scotland took England, you know. That is why I keep complaining about the Union of the Crowns and the Jacobite Rebellion all the bloody time. Burgundy has a event for when they get inherited, England should have one for a monarch dying without heirs and hello Stuarts.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

There is more than a Shade of Green.
But aye, nowadays everyone under H.M. the Queen is British, but IF Scotland stays independent it deserves its own colours, which really should be a clown selling you fries with your haggis. If it gets assimilated into Great Britain or forms Great Britain, alright, send in the red coats, but again if it stays independent it keeps its own colours and flags, while the English and everyone else keep theirs.

The only alternate colour I would accept for Scotland is blue, but it would be odd with the yellow colour which I prefer for Scotland for EU IV's time frame.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

The only alternate colour I would accept for Scotland is blue, but it would be odd with the yellow colour which I prefer for Scotland for EU IV's time frame.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but there is a tartan pattern for the whole of Scotland. So, there is a tartan pattern for the whole of Scotland.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but there is a tartan pattern for the whole of Scotland. So, there is a tartan pattern for the whole of Scotland.

Tartan isn't a colour so I don't get what you're trying to say here about my comments on Scotland's colour

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Tartan isn't a colour so I don't get what you're trying to say here about my comments on Scotland's colour

It is a mostly green patter. Not sure if I can post it here since pictures tend to be copyrighted and what not.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

It is a mostly green patter. Not sure if I can post it here since pictures tend to be copyrighted and what not.

Again, I don't understand, tartan is just a type of cloth, it's not a colour, there is red tartan, blue tartan, green tartan and more, just because a nation had some people wear green clothes doesn't mean they should have their national colours replaced with their neighbours national colours. Imagine if Ireland and Scotland were both on the map, the green on green would be horrible. Scotland should remain yellow, and Gaeldom should be blue, it works the way it is currently.