If releasing a vassals with a religion is WAD, it is wrong

[Pellucid]

Cores represent a rightful claim to the land. A fake-Persia created by some Catholic would have no such claim.

I wonder if you'd consider moving Client States forward in light of this (to approximately the end of Feudalism). That way, I can create "Catholic Persia" but it won't have any of the cores. Not even on the provinces I initially give to it if I don't core them first.

 

[knoddy]

Cores represent a rightful claim to the land. A fake-Persia created by some Catholic would have no such claim.

I could accept this argument if cores were something historical, but they are not. They are an abstract design choice by your development team, to represent a nations hold on particular lands.
Why is a fake catholic persia's "cores" going to be any less of a reason to go to war than some fake fabricated "claim" on a province.

IF you want to stop people from releasing a catholic Najd and feeding it to do religious conversions, then make it harder to do so but dont take away the choice in the matter. here are a few suggestions

1. Someone else already suggested, give vassals the same missionary strength as the overlord regardless of ideas. that way you dont get super conversion vassals, but they will still do some.

2. Let us using subject interactions convert any vassal to our religion for LD. Hell make it even more LD if they are not in our religious group.

3. Let us using subject interactions convert any vassal to our religion for increased Religious revolts in the vassals territory. This way you have to babysit your vassal otherwise they will probably get converted back by rebellions.

At the end of the day vassals converting stuff just makes your life easier, when you only get 1 or 2 missionaries, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to convert heaps and heaps of provinces if you want to make it harder fine, just dont make it impossible

 

[Beagá]

If you want the realism argument, such a state would have no recognized claims on its cores, a million Shiite persians aren't gonna be dandy with any state that calls itself 'Persia' regardless of religion.

Ofc the realism argument is meaningless, what you should not be able to do is easily mass convert regions by selectively releasing opm vassals with lots of cores.

Ok my suggestion is this.

1- Make missionaries only make a province have Majority of a religion.
2- To make religion completely assimilated would need like, 25-50 years, then it would flip to Fully Converted. After all conversion is an organic process that needs time and no state managed to do it all by itself.
3- To make country released be of your religion would need 50% base tax of said country to be Majority or Fully converted.

 

[EvilFuzzyDoom]

Cores represent a rightful claim to the land. A fake-Persia created by some Catholic would have no such claim.

Precisely what Client States are for, I suppose.

 

[Siffi]

Cores represent a rightful claim to the land. A fake-Persia created by some Catholic would have no such claim.

Sure it would if the majority of the cores was catholic before.

 

[tjayharvey]

1. How does persia not have the cores anymore just because it was conquered and released with a puppet government?
2. It does have a core, you need to core before you create a vassal from it
3. You acquire lands without core on them all the time in this game, hence the entire create core mechanic! it causes some unrest until you can create cores which takes 36 months and some admin points.
4. rightful according to whom? the nation that conquered persia and is now making a new country out of its lands? peasants are welcome to revolt and neighbors are welcome to try and take it. (nationalism CB). Heck, give me AE for it but let me do it.

I think you're misreading Wiz's statement. He's not saying the other Persian cores disappear. He's saying that as a country you would not be permitted to set up a Catholic Persia as a vassal state because the majority of Persians are not Catholic, so such a state would have no legitimacy. Eventually, states acquire the ability to set up legitimate states that have no basis in tradition - it's called Client States at Diplomacy 22. Even then, you can't use the traditional claims and lands of Shiite Persia to augment your wholly artificial Catholic Persia. You can think of it kind of like the De Jure and De Facto concepts from CK2. You can hold part of Persia as Catholic territory, but that does't grant you De Jure claims to the rest of it. You only get that by owning enough of Persia as Catholic land that the concept of Persia becomes synonymous with Catholicism.

 

[tjayharvey]

I could accept this argument if cores were something historical, but they are not. They are an abstract design choice by your development team, to represent a nations hold on particular lands.
Why is a fake catholic persia's "cores" going to be any less of a reason to go to war than some fake fabricated "claim" on a province.

IF you want to stop people from releasing a catholic Najd and feeding it to do religious conversions, then make it harder to do so but dont take away the choice in the matter. here are a few suggestions

1. Someone else already suggested, give vassals the same missionary strength as the overlord regardless of ideas. that way you dont get super conversion vassals, but they will still do some.

2. Let us using subject interactions convert any vassal to our religion for LD. Hell make it even more LD if they are not in our religious group.

3. Let us using subject interactions convert any vassal to our religion for increased Religious revolts in the vassals territory. This way you have to babysit your vassal otherwise they will probably get converted back by rebellions.

At the end of the day vassals converting stuff just makes your life easier, when you only get 1 or 2 missionaries, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to convert heaps and heaps of provinces if you want to make it harder fine, just dont make it impossible

Cores can be an abstraction based on historical claim to and ownership of the province without being something historic themselves. CBs are justification in the eyes of the world. Surely you don't think you should get the advantages of a reconquest war with a fake Catholic Persia?

From a gameplay perspective, you are supposed to pick from 4 alternatives:
1) Only take land from different religious slowly so you can deal with it with your basic conversion capabilities
2) Get religious idea to speed conversion
3) Get humanist ideas and don't convert
4) Deal with the revolt risk penalties (by building unrest reducing buildings, probably).

Sidestepping the choice by allowing you to farm out your conversion tasks to vassals undercuts several of the options and generally removes an interesting choice and an intended tradeoff.

 

[chrnno]

Sure it would if the majority of the cores was catholic before.

Indeed:

We're likely changing it to be based on majority religion of cores. Will count non owned cores too, meaning no releasing 3 development Catholic Persia and feeding it all its cores.

 

[knoddy]

Cores can be an abstraction based on historical claim to and ownership of the province without being something historic themselves. CBs are justification in the eyes of the world. Surely you don't think you should get the advantages of a reconquest war with a fake Catholic Persia?

but what makes a core from a fake catholic persia, any less of a legitimate cause for war, than a fake fabricated claim on a piece of land?

We're likely changing it to be based on majority religion of cores. Will count non owned cores too, meaning no releasing 3 development Catholic Persia and feeding it all its cores.

the problem with this, is that it requires you to take and convert at least half the land (and probably core it too, before you can release it) which is pointless, after you have converted and cored it, why bother releasing it.

Eventually, states acquire the ability to set up legitimate states that have no basis in tradition - it's called Client States at Diplomacy 22.

this argument is about as good as the "coring cost too high? wait until Admin Eff kicks in to expand" argument. I should not have to wait until tech 22 to be able to create useful vassals.

Sidestepping the choice by allowing you to farm out your conversion tasks to vassals undercuts several of the options and generally removes an interesting choice and an intended tradeoff.

its sharing the load, and it doesnt come without issues, you still have to babysit your vassal and deal with their rebels. its not like you could not convert the land yourself but when you are taking large swathes of land, it makes it more difficult. (incoming argument "well dont take large amounts of land")


At the end of the day, a vassal is a subject of the overlord, and the fact that you made it possible to enforce religion on same religion group suggest you believe that the overlord should have control over the vassals religion. so why stop it? most people like more ways to play the game not less, if you want to make it more difficult for us to make same religion vassals do it, if you think we shouldnt be able to do reconquest on catholic persia's shiite cores, then perhaps make it increased AE or something, , but dont remove the option entirely.

 

[Beagá]

Lol indeed.

Catholic Jerusalem in CK2 says hi, I guess.

Seriously people - majority of population has a religion you can make a country with said official religion. If converting is too easy, then fix conversion, or make it require a certain amount of base tax converted to free country X as catholic.

 

[Strangedane]

the problem with this, is that it requires you to take and convert at least half the land (and probably core it too, before you can release it) which is pointless, after you have converted and cored it, why bother releasing it.

Why would you need to core it?

Example.
You take 51% of dead Najd and convert it to, let's say coptic.
You release Najd.
51% of Najds cores are Coptic.
Najd is coptic.

 

[knoddy]

Why would you need to core it?

Example.
You take 51% of dead Najd and convert it to, let's say coptic.
You release Najd.
51% of Najds cores are Coptic.
Najd is coptic.

najd is a bad example because the land is dirt poor and rubbish, if you wanted to take half of Persia and convert it you would die to OE.

 

[Siffi]

najd is a bad example because the land is dirt poor and rubbish, if you wanted to take half of Persia and convert it you would die to OE.

Easy alternative spit out a small vassal with the religion of your choice and feed him the persian land.The only difference would be that you have to deal with rebels once or twice.

 

[sumo0]

More choice have disappeared from the game with this change.
I don't like it.

 

[thegreatuniter]

I don't see the reason why people disagree with the majority of cores solution Wiz talked about earlier. It seems realistic, and more balanced for gameplay than what we have now or what is was before.

 

[johnleeyx]

Cores represent a rightful claim to the land. A fake-Persia created by some Catholic would have no such claim.

Unless that Catholic puppet ruler happened to be the last surviving member of the beloved Persian royal family?

 

[knoddy]

Easy alternative spit out a small vassal with the religion of your choice and feed him the persian land.The only difference would be that you have to deal with rebels once or twice.

true but you cannot return cores to them (well I mean they dont have a lot of cores to return, unless they go conquest crazy. I guess the change will just make small states that take religious the best vassals with the change.


Still I dont see why people have an issue, my understanding of vassals is that they are subservient subjects. The idea being you give them some autonomy to rule their country but at the end of the day they answer to their overlord. I see no reason why an overlord cannot impose his religion on them.

NOW if you want to argue that it is unrealistic, then I would argue that religion as it is currently implemented in the game is incredibly unrealistic. The suggestion that you can completely convert a province to your religion eradicating all of the previous beliefs is incredibly unrealistic especially within such a short space of time.

but with how religion is implemented and functions within EU4 I see no problem with letting me release a catholic Persia and then returning their cores and having them convert the land for me.

The realism/historical argument only works if the gameplay feature itself is realistic and historical. which it isnt.

 

[PeterHe]

We're likely changing it to be based on majority religion of cores. Will count non owned cores too, meaning no releasing 3 development Catholic Persia and feeding it all its cores.

Im sorry but i simply dont like the direction common sense (and the game as a whole) is taking and this is just one more piece in that direction.
In the end it dosnt matter i rolled the game back to 1.10 so good riddance to this expansion.

 

[NightKev]

@Wiz will this value be exported to defines.lua so we can change what % cores are needed for this?

 

[happymix91]

Even Wiz said that they will make conversion of vassal possible, many people want more. Perhaps no one wants historical and realistic aspects of the game. You guys simply want to do whatever you want, even that thing is imba and unreal. Or you guys want for the game to reflect literally everything possible at history, but it isn't possible. Finding some other games or making your own game is better choice for you, I think.