If releasing a vassals with a religion is WAD, it is wrong

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Florryworry

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Yeh well if this WAD please give zoroasterianism an extra missionary from conquering mecca in the same way that jewish gets a missionary from conquering jerusalem or something, or friggin balkh (probably the province where zoroaster was born) or something anything PDOX pls
 
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grommile

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I never mentioned mass religious conversion though, where did you get that from? Releasing an already converted province means I already did the work right?
The usual motive (at least, as far as I've seen) for releasing a vassal on provinces you've already converted is to subsequently feed that vassal and have it share some of the load of converting the provinces you want to take.
 

Konair0s

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The usual motive (at least, as far as I've seen) for releasing a vassal on provinces you've already converted is to subsequently feed that vassal and have it share some of the load of converting the provinces you want to take.

Even if so, what's the problem with this? You will pay for it with diplo points already.
 

grommile

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Even if so, what's the problem with this? You will pay for it with diplo points already.
You pay the same diplo points whether they're heathen or true-faith.
 

Konair0s

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happymix91

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?

Where have I said that? To me that seems like you ran out of arguments and are now trying to use ad hominem.



Very sophisticated system? ROFL.

You did not read my previous post, did you? First, you understimate the size of Paradox's development team; second, my suggestion is extremely simple, arguably simpler than having each tag possess a primary religion.

And yes, it did happen pretty often that upon conversion of the locals, if the state went independent it would keep its new religion rather than asspull some fanatic nationalism based on an effectively dead (In the region) religion. Does not happen every single year to some random state =/= impossible or even unlikely. I have already given the examples of Bosnia and Albania, which became states with muslim plurality/majority in spite of in 1444 being Christian. There are lots of other examples as well, especially if you want to consider places such as Germany.



EUIV simulates majority in history? Then please explain to me what the Burgundian Inheritance is supposed to represent. Or the Iberian wedding. Or the revolution mechanic, which is part of the same DLC as the client state mechanics. Or the protestant reformation. Or colonization of an entire continent. Or the eradication of entire cultures through an unrealistic mechanic. Or westernization. Majority in history, right? The rule rather than the exception, right? And to end it all: EUIV isn't even a simulator.

Back to the point: Were those exceptions? Of course, no one is disputing that when religion is the foundation of so many states up to the present days. Your claim, however, is that it was unrealistic for a country to adopt a new religion after having been subjulgated and having had its population converted, which is far from accurate and goes contrary to the fact. In the end of the day, this one fact just makes my suggestion more solid. The states' legitimacy is directly linked to the religion of its populace in this period, period.

And there was conversion of the "Persian state" in that era, yes. Not from Zoroastrian, though. Persia was sunni until the Safavids came around.



What is that nonsense supposed to mean? I reeeally can't take you seriously anymore, are you even trying? Historical facts =/= baseless stuff you make up to try to back up your claims in a discussion.

And it is not really a good decision to lock down something as relevant as vassal's religion with an arbitrary limitation which only gets removed if you use some late-game DLC mechanic. That's not adding new mechanics, it's removing an old mechanic and forcing you to use a DLC to "unlock" it again, which I doubt is Paradox' intent with the change.
1. You guys just whines about what you cannot do as Paradox patched to make more realistic game. You guys always want to put what you want to the game, not consider real problem of developing. There are some exceptions in history, but the dev team has no reason to put all of them in the game.

2. I didn't know that two countries can represent majority of history. You have perfectly new type of eye for history. As long as you guys just say 'Hey Paradox, there is ~~~~ thing in history, so put it in your game!', your opinion will be just ignored.

3. Burgundian succession and Iberian wedding are DHEs. They make game go historical, not represent majority or minority. You said DHE? Then, conversion of entire country is matter of history and not be the part of game system, but DHE. Paradox will make it in 100 years, so wait until they do, if you can alive that long. Or you can mod it.

4. Conquer provinces and make vassal which follows your own religion is not major situation in history. You convert all of provinces? Then, they are just your people, not other's. Also, why you should make vassal? You can just rule them directly. However, current system doesn't offer you convert ALL of people in provinces. What a pity.

5. You simply said 'Paradox should work for us and not be granted any earning!'. They have their own life and family, so they should lock some of features to make earning.



'There are some exceptions that EU can't simulate! Fix it!'..? Make your own game, it is the only solution.
 
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Duke of Britain

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1. You guys just whines about what you cannot do as Paradox patched to make more realistic game. You guys always want to put what you want to the game, not consider real problem of developing. There are some exceptions in history, but the dev team has no reason to put all of them in the game.

Are you a comedian?

Take a look at my posts in this forum and check if I argue against realism. From the looks, you seem to think everything in EUIV is realistic and Paradox is favouring realism over gameplay. Man, go take a look at some good history books and stop acting like you can't read some facts, your argument of "muh realism" is pathetic and flawed to the core.

As for developing: Yes, they do need to represent exceptions in history. If you cared to research, you'd notice that history is made up of funny little exceptions and unlikely events that helped shape it. Who would have guessed that one of the largest anomalies in history, the French revolution, would have such large impact, right? Oh, wait, it's not something that happened every odd year, let's not have it in the game!

2. I didn't know that two countries can represent majority of history. You have perfectly new type of eye for history. As long as you guys just say 'Hey Paradox, there is ~~~~ thing in history, so put it in your game!', your opinion will be just ignored.

Stop embarassing yourself like this, I'm starting to feel shame reading your posts. I did not say they were the majority - quite the opposite, I mentioned they were exceptions.

3. Burgundian succession and Iberian wedding are DHEs. They make game go historical, not represent majority or minority. You said DHE? Then, conversion of entire country is matter of history and not be the part of game system, but DHE. Paradox will make it in 100 years, so wait until they do, if you can alive that long. Or you can mod it.

And what was the argument you used in your previous post? The one that only the majority should be represented in the game, right? Yet DHEs are there exactly because they are needed to represent some specific and unlikely events, although in some (Burgundian Inheritance comes to mind) it is just railroading for the sake of railroading, which is contrary to the realism you use as an argument, much like the Monarch Point mechanic or other - sometimes unecessary - abstractions.

4. Conquer provinces and make vassal which follows your own religion is not major situation in history. You convert all of provinces? Then, they are just your people, not other's. Also, why you should make vassal? You can just rule them directly. However, current system doesn't offer you convert ALL of people in provinces. What a pity.

?

Decentralization exists in history, you know. And even when pursuing centralization, did you really think Austria, or "Spain", were single entities? Until Spain was properly established with the unification of the Kingdoms of Castile and Aragon, or Austria became an Empire, those lands were a boatload of titles united by a monarch. In game terms, they would be personal unions.

Decentralization could be useful historically because there was a lot of difficulty in maintaining a large state, yet such an important problem that all major powers faced is not represented in the game at all, so much for representing the "majority". And until stated otherwise, the system of religion in-game does simulate the majority of the population or at least the elite. Are you claiming that the minority should always rule? What was your talk about "majorities" in historic events again?

5. You simply said 'Paradox should work for us and not be granted any earning!'. They have their own life and family, so they should lock some of features to make earning.

Derp argument. I'm a computer science student myself, so to claim that would be the same as to claim that I should not have any earning ever when I do start to work. I don't think I have ever claimed that, but destroying features that existed in the past to put them behind a new paywall simply because they, according to your claim, want the money is pretty anti-ethical in my opinion.

'There are some exceptions that EU can't simulate! Fix it!'..? Make your own game, it is the only solution.

What a cute use of a fallacy.

I'm not even going to lose time with you anymore. I can't be troubled to convince some guy to let down his ego so that he can realize that he needs to research about something before he comes around acting like an expert in the matter and that he won't be always right. Still, I had a good laugh on the matter with the kind of arguments you used (Realism and development time, really?) to criticize my suggestion.
 
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its just another paradox trick to force you to buy cs
Not really, because even with CS it's impossible to force-convert a vassal to your religion if it's not part of your religious group - as Portugal, for example, I cannot force my Shia Bahmani 5-province vassal to convert to Catholicism. No matter what.

I consider it to be a poor design decision rather than some sort of sinister "buy CS or else" conspiracy, because people with CS aren't significantly better off in this instance.
 
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zemuzil

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Not really, because even with CS it's impossible to force-convert a vassal to your religion if it's not part of your religious group - as Portugal, for example, I cannot force my Shia Bahmani 5-province vassal to convert to Catholicism. No matter what.

I consider it to be a poor design decision rather than some sort of sinister "buy CS or else" conspiracy, because people with CS aren't significantly better off in this instance.
You could annex 5 province shia bahmani and release them as catholic bahmani before...
 

Konair0s

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1. You guys just whines about what you cannot do as Paradox patched to make more realistic game. You guys always want to put what you want to the game, not consider real problem of developing. There are some exceptions in history, but the dev team has no reason to put all of them in the game.

Now can anyone say that EU4 community is not toxic? :)
 
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Mirehn

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Ummmmm, to anyone saying it's unrealistic to release vassals/colonies and have them keep your religion, I would direct you towards........

The African, South American, and North American continents.

Or maybe I just missed the part where everyone went back to Shamanism.
 
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Sheriff Godwin Law

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I can't believe I signed up for the forum to get involved in this bit of silly thread but, at the risk of the more obnoxious players accusing me of nonsense rather than address the points raised, here goes. Happymix1 clearly isn't making any friends, but he is making the most sense.

A core represents the administrative investment that you've made to incorporate a province into your nation, however that may be done by your individual type of government. If you're a feudal monarchy, it is granting those lands and titles to your friend and providing what support he needs to get his earldom up and running, if you're an administrative republic, it's the cost of training or shipping in the bureaucrats you need and bringing the locals up to speed on national laws and ordinance. It's an abstraction to represent the effort and cost your society has paid to grow enough to include Tangiers as a part of Catholic Spain and so it's why, once a core is produced, your lands are more stable, you're able to extract taxes more efficiently, and you suffer a prestige loss for not holding that land, because you have a government there.

When you release a vassal, you do so based on the foreign cores that those provinces have, or the governmental structure of the foreign power. If Catholic Spain steals all of north eastern Africa from a surprisingly effective Tunisia, and then releases Morocco as a vassal state to feed their conquest too, rather than coring those provinces directly, they have in essence decided to forgo direct assimilation of those provinces into their government in favor of selling a large amount of autonomy to Morocco's ruling class for the low price of Morocco having no control over their foreign relations, a monthly tribute, and a pledge to give aid in time of war. This is why Morocco is going to select their own idea groups, appoint their own generals, raise their own armies, be ruled by a Moroccan noble dynasty, decide whether they're willing to pay you for all those Tunisian sand traps you keep trying to pawn off on them, and yes, pick their own religion. They get to make these decisions, because you decided you weren't going to expend the administrative, or military effort, necessary to be able to make these decisions for them.

So, the ruling class of Morocco always wants to be Muslim now, even if the majority of their citizens are Catholic. Is it a perfectly accurate solution? No, but it's no less reasonable than thinking you can dictate to a nation you don't actually rule what their faith should be. Plus, it gets rid of some cheese and that's always a good thing. So take a deep breath, learn how to incite rebellions and lets all be happy for the unintended buff to the espionage idea group?
 
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I just conquered some land and released a province I just converted to Catholic to create the nation of Astrakhan from the province of Sarai.

The OPM starts the province is Catholic with the state religion being Sunni. Please dont tell me this is WAD.

you are absolutely right, no place making this BS happen anymore. Rebel mechanics, vassal feeding and conversion changed way too much from the ye olde days of 1.3 etc.
 

Thrake

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Why the greatest orthodox nation, Byzantine empire, should be Sunni nation? There are many minor religions at converted provinces. Released nations should follow their own religion as there are some people who still believe their own, and they lead that nation.

You can make whatever you want if you reach certain tech with client nation, but before that, you are not able to convert a nation's religion except among same religous group as long as you release nations with their own name and flag. It is realistic and reasonable.

I don't realy care about that change, but let me disagree with you: when you release a vassal, basically, you, the overlord, decide to grant someone control over the lands. YOU choose who will rule it. So now, let me ask you: why would Castille let a Sunni guy rule over Granada?
 
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atwix

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wow, nice first post.

Realism of course speaks in favour of this change to a game.

But in reality, if an overlord released a nation as a vassal ( with a puppet king and puppet nobles), the overlord himself would send missionaries to convert anyone and everything by force, installing some sort of fierce 'convert or die' inquisition.

Ingame EU4, this move meant that rebels popped faster, since wrong religion provinces ticked to 100% rebel chance faster IF a missinoary tried to convert them. A player had to defeat more rebels, and in return the subject religion stayed catholic.

Now this option is arbitrary blocked. And that what is the thread is about.

I think the entire situation regarding vassals not taking your religion ingame is more ahistorical as before.

Badwrongfun nerf ;)

P.s: would Najd like it if they released a vassal in europe after converting 100% overextension provinces to sunni, only to discover their state religion is christian?
 
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Lemont Elwood

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Why the greatest orthodox nation, Byzantine empire, should be Sunni nation? There are many minor religions at converted provinces. Released nations should follow their own religion as there are some people who still believe their own, and they lead that nation.

You can make whatever you want if you reach certain tech with client nation, but before that, you are not able to convert a nation's religion except among same religous group as long as you release nations with their own name and flag. It is realistic and reasonable.

It's only realistic if so many of the common people and elites of the region are of a separate religion that the state couldn't function without their support. If you converted a substantial amount of territory that you're releasing, there's no logical reason why the new state shouldn't share your state religion.
 
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Duke of Britain

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I can't believe I signed up for the forum to get involved in this bit of silly thread but, at the risk of the more obnoxious players accusing me of nonsense rather than address the points raised, here goes. Happymix1 clearly isn't making any friends, but he is making the most sense.

A core represents the administrative investment that you've made to incorporate a province into your nation, however that may be done by your individual type of government. If you're a feudal monarchy, it is granting those lands and titles to your friend and providing what support he needs to get his earldom up and running, if you're an administrative republic, it's the cost of training or shipping in the bureaucrats you need and bringing the locals up to speed on national laws and ordinance. It's an abstraction to represent the effort and cost your society has paid to grow enough to include Tangiers as a part of Catholic Spain and so it's why, once a core is produced, your lands are more stable, you're able to extract taxes more efficiently, and you suffer a prestige loss for not holding that land, because you have a government there.

When you release a vassal, you do so based on the foreign cores that those provinces have, or the governmental structure of the foreign power. If Catholic Spain steals all of north eastern Africa from a surprisingly effective Tunisia, and then releases Morocco as a vassal state to feed their conquest too, rather than coring those provinces directly, they have in essence decided to forgo direct assimilation of those provinces into their government in favor of selling a large amount of autonomy to Morocco's ruling class for the low price of Morocco having no control over their foreign relations, a monthly tribute, and a pledge to give aid in time of war. This is why Morocco is going to select their own idea groups, appoint their own generals, raise their own armies, be ruled by a Moroccan noble dynasty, decide whether they're willing to pay you for all those Tunisian sand traps you keep trying to pawn off on them, and yes, pick their own religion. They get to make these decisions, because you decided you weren't going to expend the administrative, or military effort, necessary to be able to make these decisions for them.

So, the ruling class of Morocco always wants to be Muslim now, even if the majority of their citizens are Catholic. Is it a perfectly accurate solution? No, but it's no less reasonable than thinking you can dictate to a nation you don't actually rule what their faith should be. Plus, it gets rid of some cheese and that's always a good thing. So take a deep breath, learn how to incite rebellions and lets all be happy for the unintended buff to the espionage idea group?

Now this post makes sense, but I'll still disagree with the idea of the mechanic.

While you are correct in that releasing a vassal may be seen as granting power to the local ruling class (That's my view too), it's far from impossible to have the elite adopt the religion of their subjects, especially if that is the majority religion. And even if that were not to happen, then the new vassal should at least not go around oppressing their subjects, although ideally the actual relationship would be more complicated than that.

Ultimately, the problem here is that the mechanic is too static: A vassal will always have X religion, rather than have to decide between X and Y, and there's literally no way for the overlord to influence its vassal to adopt their desired religion unless it is already in their religious group, which is completely ahistorical, because even without a liege-vassal relationship, neighbours could send missionaries and attempt to convert the people/elite of a region. Historically, converting the King of a state could have absolutely massive consequences for that state, but this is impossible ingame.

IMO, this just shows that there is urgent need for some kind of new mechanic to represent the different classes (i.e. nobles, merchants, peasants, clergy) and assorted interactions with those classes.