I believe it was said that this was partly to have some of the lesser seen religions (IE jewish) being seen sometimes. It also may be to make vassal feeding to change religions harder. TBH both sides of the argument make sense, Its doubtful that you could release a Hindu Papal States (especially if the provinces were converted last month), but if Armenia has been Sunni for 250 years (or howerver long their cores last) it can make sense to be Sunni
If releasing a vassals with a religion is WAD, it is wrong
- Thread starter windwalker14
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The decision to create KoJ releases it as an independent state, unless you're Cyprus or the Knights, in which case you tag-switch to KoJ yourself.
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Most common sense and also realistic choice would be to:
Select with which official religion to release a vassal.
Select with which official religion to release a vassal.
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so let me get this straight, if I play Papal states and release a nation whose capital is now catholic, the nation gets released as sultanate and NOT as catholic bishopric?
Let's say I want to conquer Jerusalem area as Papal states (busy on it now), and in theory IF the Pope decides there should be a catholic Jerusalem nation as their vassal (sounds logical right, for papal states), then eu4 code sayss NOPE, Jerusalem, the holy place of catholics, is released as a sultanate?
Makes a LOAD of sense
My suggestion? If the nationalism and rebel chance of the force conversion to catholicism expired, it should be possible to release vassals of your religion in former heathen land.
Unless paradox admits this whole thing is a bug, of course.
I'm pretty sure the Kingdom of Jerusalem is Catholic in the history files, so no matter who releases the tag, they are released as Catholic, which considering how strongly the idea of a Kingdom of Jerusalem is tied to the Catholic faith, kind of makes sense.
From what I remember of the dev diaries, this was changed, because quite a few tags have strong ties to certain religions and to showcase more marginal religions like Judaism and Zoroastrianism. I.e. without this change there is no way to play as these religions without except by custom nation (dlc only), mod, or with some work religious rebels.
I can kind of get behind the idea, that tags like Papal States, religious orders etc. can't be converted to heathen faiths. It would be better though, if there was some way to designate tags as secular, so they can be released as any religion (probably not doable without changing the engine), or added some redundant tags with different religions.
As for people arguing, that it doesn't make historical sense, that tags released in converted provinces revert to the old religion... doesn't releasing a catholic holy order as a muslim state strike you as just a little bit more ahistorical. Along that same line, many of the tags have strong religious connotations, e.g. basically all the christian Kingdoms took their legitimacy from god. Most customs and rites, that made those kingdoms legitimate in the eyes of the people were heavily tied to the church. It doesn't really make sense historically, to be able to transfer that same legitimacy to a muslim king. The Protestant-Catholic divide historically strained that relationship quite a bit, it makes sense that Catholic-Muslim breaks it.
edit: Gameplay is obviously a whole other question, but the historical/logical argument against the change is pretty bogus.
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There used to be a similar mechanic in pre-1.12 on a smaller scale. When you release Iraq or Persia, they would turn into Shia in 100% of my campaigns.
I have mixed feelings about it though. Vassal feeding was OP at first, then non-existant, and now I believe it's balanced.
I don't necessarily disagree with this design choice but it makes Religious idea group almost mandatory which isn't helpful for game balance if I may say so myself.
I have mixed feelings about it though. Vassal feeding was OP at first, then non-existant, and now I believe it's balanced.
I don't necessarily disagree with this design choice but it makes Religious idea group almost mandatory which isn't helpful for game balance if I may say so myself.
What happens if you annex a OPM when force converting at the same time. If restored as a vassal, would it have the forced religion?
Thank you for starting this thread. I had the impression that something was off regarding the religion of released states since CS launched. Just did a quick experiment:
I just did release Iraq. All off the Iraqi cores I had were Sunni. The on screen info did label the created state as Shiite, yet the later in the nation overview displayed state religion was Sunni.
Later on, once Iraq got some additional cores back, all Shiite, the displayed state religion switched to being Shiite.
TLDR: Iraq with only Sunni cores released. Creation window did label it as Shiite. Created state was Sunni. After more Shiite cores, state was Shiite.
Either the state was Shiite the whole time, and it was not proper displayed. Or it was intended that a released state can switch to another denomination of its religion, if it has the majority of value x, probably development. Not sure about the sudden flip later, once more development was of the actual denomination it should have had, and which was the one displayed on creation.
I just did release Iraq. All off the Iraqi cores I had were Sunni. The on screen info did label the created state as Shiite, yet the later in the nation overview displayed state religion was Sunni.
Later on, once Iraq got some additional cores back, all Shiite, the displayed state religion switched to being Shiite.
TLDR: Iraq with only Sunni cores released. Creation window did label it as Shiite. Created state was Sunni. After more Shiite cores, state was Shiite.
Either the state was Shiite the whole time, and it was not proper displayed. Or it was intended that a released state can switch to another denomination of its religion, if it has the majority of value x, probably development. Not sure about the sudden flip later, once more development was of the actual denomination it should have had, and which was the one displayed on creation.
Yes I know. Just a general question regarding heretics being released with their own particular strain of a religion.
In that case: I'm not sure you can force religion and full annex at the same time, but if it is possible they should release as the forced religion because technically it was the last state religion they had.
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If you go revolutionary target, you can force convert heathens
Else, not being able to put a Catholic on the throne of a completely converted Catholic area does seem weird (or fill in the blanks otherwise).
The change *does* make sense if you never converted the provinces. Before you would have an all X religion area, but the new vassal would be 'wrong' religion for the area. That always caused issues.
Now, ofc, if you mass convert an area, then pop out a wrong religion vassal, there's a good chance that religious rebels will pop up and convert the vassal anyways.
Else, not being able to put a Catholic on the throne of a completely converted Catholic area does seem weird (or fill in the blanks otherwise).
The change *does* make sense if you never converted the provinces. Before you would have an all X religion area, but the new vassal would be 'wrong' religion for the area. That always caused issues.
Now, ofc, if you mass convert an area, then pop out a wrong religion vassal, there's a good chance that religious rebels will pop up and convert the vassal anyways.
so let me get this straight, if I play Papal states and release a nation whose capital is now catholic, the nation gets released as sultanate and NOT as catholic bishopric?
Let's say I want to conquer Jerusalem area as Papal states (busy on it now), and in theory IF the Pope decides there should be a catholic Jerusalem nation as their vassal (sounds logical right, for papal states), then eu4 code sayss NOPE, Jerusalem, the holy place of catholics, is released as a sultanate?
Makes a LOAD of sense
My suggestion? If the nationalism and rebel chance of the force conversion to catholicism expired, it should be possible to release vassals of your religion in former heathen land.
Unless paradox admits this whole thing is a bug, of course.
Not bug, Wiz announced in one of his map teaser threads (IIRC) it and it was in patch notes.
Whatever country, released vassal will always have religion which is written in country's history. For non-existing countries it is from history files. What I did not check, is what happens if nation changed religion (say via rebels), disappeared and you resurrect it, but I suspect it keeps its previous religion, not the original one.
I wanted to discuss issue with Wiz even before CS release. I have proposed that majority of provinces' religion could be taken into account, and he admitted that he might consider it for the same religious group. When I have (in at least 3 threads) inquired why not also for heathens he never answered.
I suspect it is "design decision", which is supposed to nerf vassal feeding, regardless how stupid it is:
- sunni Granada released in Napoleonic times
- nahuatl Aztecs released from Mexico
- pagan Makassar or Ternate released from whatever: sunni, catholic or hindu country
- sunni Berar punched out of Shia Bahmanis, even all provinces are and were hindu
...
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IIRC it is impossible to force conversion and annex at the same time.
They could add triggers for releasing/respawing countries to prevent Sunni BYZ or PAP, like e.g. but for the religion
It was posible, I did not try in CS. The land had to go to your vassal, which was heretic toward annexed country IIRC.
But it worked for the same religion group of course.
As I mentioned in my previous post, even if this is WAD, I think it's a tad ridiculous that we're not even given the option of changing a vassal's religion. If we can do it with heretics, why not with heathens?
Certain countries like the Papal States are already hardcoded to stay certain religions, so why make everything else worse?
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Your memory is no longer correct as of patch 1.12. You can demand conversion in the same peace deal that you annex a country, if they're small enough to be able to fit both into 100% warscore. This has the useful property of converting their capital for you.
Okay. That's a convenient thing.
Though I don't understand how from the point of view of the devs it is not cheesy, while completely reasonable releasing of a vassal with your religion is.