If releasing a vassals with a religion is WAD, it is wrong

[taltamir]

but then the majority of what?

its going to be based on the majority of the cores it had before you conquered it, weighted by development.
So, lets say tunisia has 10 counties. you conquer the entire thing. you convert 3 counties and release them. It will be released as suuni because the other 7 counties which you didn't release are still suuni and contribute more to its dev score.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Would largest (most provinces) religion > tie break to Capital religion (if one of largest) > tie break to highest total development work for you?

Work as in fulfill the requirements, sure. But I'd actually sort of prefer the complete opposite of that order.

most development total>capital>fewest provinces, not most.

Using development first should prevent the vast majority of ties with the added bonus of giving greater weight to the more developed and harder to convert provinces. Someone complained earlier that a simple majority of cores can still be gamed by gathering up a majority using underdeveloped provinces and converting them before releasing the vassal to tackle the hard jobs, but using development would solve that issue.

After that, I'd give priority to the capital's religion, hadn't even considered it before but now that you mention it, it has to be considered a hub of that vassal's government and so deserves additional weight.

Finally, if the capital is not one of the largest, then the religion that occupies the fewest provinces while having the same amount of development is the religion of choice because it is occupying the largest cities. The largest cities tend to have a dispraportionate effect on both culture and government so it just makes sense that the burgers of the newly freed Austria would care more about Graz than an equal number of peasants in their hinterlands. Plus, your newly released vassal will have an easier time converting those little provinces and so are less likely to break at the hands of religious zealots spawned by a 20 development metropolis.

Now if they can't sort by most development total, my order would be "ties go to capital" and then I'd agree with CNY10000 that this isn't a solution.

 

[Azieloki]

I just really don't understand why this change was made, it adds nothing to the game. Aside from Persia I can't think of any situations where vassal conversion was even necessary, and even then I would usually annex Persia before all conversions finished anyways. This is close to the military access changes in absurdity. I understand from a realism point of view why this might be appealing, but I can't see how the previous system actually imbalanced the game. If anything vassal conversions were important to compensate for the limited capacity for conversion that some faiths have access to.

Although I don't understand it, I'm not mad about this change. However I think a better solution would be to add additional ways to get missionaries. I personally have no issues with being forced to convert all land by myself, but sometimes that is just not possible. Even with religious ideas there are some situations where I just can't keep up with the amount of land that needs converted. Also, making it so that released vassals take the dominant religion sounds good on paper, but I feel like this would add more bugs and just end up making the game even more inaccessible to irregular players.

 

[TheChronoMaster]

Mind if I suggest that forcibly released nations keep their old religion, but voluntarily released nations have the religion of their overlord?

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I just really don't understand why this change was made, it adds nothing to the game. Aside from Persia I can't think of any situations where vassal conversion was even necessary, and even then I would usually annex Persia before all conversions finished anyways. This is close to the military access changes in absurdity. I understand from a realism point of view why this might be appealing, but I can't see how the previous system actually imbalanced the game. If anything vassal conversions were important to compensate for the limited capacity for conversion that some faiths have access to.

Although I don't understand it, I'm not mad about this change. However I think a better solution would be to add additional ways to get missionaries. I personally have no issues with being forced to convert all land by myself, but sometimes that is just not possible. Even with religious ideas there are some situations where I just can't keep up with the amount of land that needs converted. Also, making it so that released vassals take the dominant religion sounds good on paper, but I feel like this would add more bugs and just end up making the game even more inaccessible to irregular players.

I have sometimes used one of the North African powers as a conversion tool when I've been Castille/Spain. Take enough of one of them to be able to convert the land, release a minor now of my faith, and gradually feed it provinces over several wars. Eventually I annex that one and release a new nation at the edge of the growing push.
However, I was generally releasing almost fully converted countries, so the tactic has so far been no help at all with the current patch, since they'd be wrong religion, and sat on many provinces that are the wrong religion for them - a situation likely to spawn rebels that might want to do several things.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Mind if I suggest that forcibly released nations keep their old religion, but voluntarily released nations have the religion of their overlord?

It still doesn't entirely work with (for example) a Morocco with fully Catholic provinces being released as Sunni, after a war between Catholic Spain and Catholic France.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

I got that part, I am asking who is it that is not permitting me to do so. I literally conquered them with my literal armies and I am literally able to make them a core or release them as a vassal who is of the original religion.
So who is not making the permitting? the countries my own religion will certainly permit it. The countries of its original religion already have CB and relationship penalties with me and I welcome them to dare and declare war on me. The peasants already are revolting due to nationalism. That literally covers anyone in the game, the reason we are not permitted to do so is because paradox said so, because "millions of muslims" in the game would complain if I made persia catholic. But the thing is, they literally complain anyways as per holy wars and rebellions. So if they are complaining about it anyways I might as well get to put a puppet of my own religion.

The ruling body that you have given full domestic autonomy too. The Shah in exile that you've asked to come back to rule his nation because you can't be bothered to establish your own government. You could tell him he's not allowed to run a muslim government and insist he convert to Catholicism, but I'm afraid that's a deal breaker for him because he's pretty convinced it'll damn his immortal soul. Shame too, because without him you don't have a stable self governing vassal, you have a collection of unruly provinces that will only give lip service, half taxes, and constant rebellions, to the puppet government.

 

[Moridin997]

Wasn't Byzantium pretty much the center of orthodox Christianity for a thousand yesrs? It was a very religious state, with religion and politics tightly intertwined.

Yes. But that didn't define Byzantium as much as Rome's legacy did. It was much the other way around: Byzantium was one of the things that helped define Orthodoxy (not religiously, but politically...).

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

The ruling body that you have given full domestic autonomy too. The Shah in exile that you've asked to come back to rule his nation because you can't be bothered to establish your own government. You could tell him he's not allowed to run a muslim government and insist he convert to Catholicism, but I'm afraid that's a deal breaker for him because he's pretty convinced it'll damn his immortal soul and without him you don't have a stable self governing vassal, you have a collection of unruly provinces that will only give lip service, half taxes, and constant rebellions, to the puppet government.

So I don't give the hypothetical throne back to the Shah-in-exile. I put a puppet "Shah" on the throne and damn the revolts - we'll just have to crush them together until the largely Catholic population accept their Catholic "Shah", or as I prefer to call him "Duke Abraham". After all, if I've already made the majority of the nation Catholic, then surely they're going to be more pissed off about me installing the old Muslim Shah than installing one of their (Catholic) nobles as my viceroy?

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

So I don't give the hypothetical throne back to the Shah-in-exile. I put a puppet "Shah" on the throne and damn the revolts - we'll just have to crush them together until the largely Catholic population accept their Catholic "Shah", or as I prefer to call him "Duke Abraham". After all, if I've already made the majority of the nation Catholic, then surely they're going to be more pissed off about me installing the old Muslim Shah than installing one of their (Catholic) nobles as my viceroy?

Well that's certainly an option. And there is alot to be said for Duke Abraham. He's catholic, like you and the majority of the citizenry now *wink,* he's absoulely loyal to you as he's your cousin, so no marrying your sister for him. In fact he agrees with your governmental course completely, so much so that he can almost be considered an extension of your own will.

He's great, but not exactly perfect. He lacks any sort of legitimacy with his new nations existing aristocracy. In fact, they see right through him immediately and treat him as if he were nothing more than a puppet lord, and that living under his rule is treated exactly the same as living under yours. Even the Catholic lords are resentful of this impetuous outsider or upjumped quisling being put in charge of their great nation, a mockery of their generations of history and tradition. Sure they give him lip service because they fear reprisal from your army, except when they don't and then seperatists rise up in rebellion. Taxes are collected inefficiently, and while he has access to the manpower pool represented by the willing and able peasantry, he has to depend on your government to train them and outfit them with gear and an officer core. What's worse, since he lacks the wide spread support of the government he pretends to represent, he is unable to make any headway in swaying the minds of his people towards the ultimate goal of accepting assimilation into your empire. If you want this nation to assimilate, any progress will have be done on your end.

It's a shame, had you appointed the Shah in Exile your history of conflict and his refusal to bend the knee to your catholic god would have worked for you, it would have reassured the people you had no immediate intentions to rob them of their independence. And with that reassurance they would have opened their minds to what your diplomats had to say. It may have taken 10 years, but in that time you could have kindled a great deal of love between your people and his, you may even have convinced them to do the majority of the administrative work necessary to finally bring your people together permanently. I'm not saying that wouldn't have taken a great deal of convincing, your diplomatic core would have been working day and night guiding the process. But your precious administrators would have been free for other tasks.

In short, there is already a way to represent an illegitimate pretender placed on the throne of a nation by a foreign power. It's done by simply owning the provinces without coring them and having a feudal monarchy.

There's also already a way to represent intelligently constructing the government of a subject nation to your own specifications, but it requires a great deal of diplomatic acumen. You'll probably learn the ins and outs about the same time you figure out how to use limes to combat scurvy.

 

[Dr.Goldstein]

Another issue on this regard, forcing religion on shia/sunni vassals by the vassal interaction is meaningless, as they instantly get the decision to switch back, leaving you with 50% extra liberty desire with no gain.

 

[durvas]

I just really don't understand why this change was made, it adds nothing to the game. Aside from Persia I can't think of any situations where vassal conversion was even necessary, and even then I would usually annex Persia before all conversions finished anyways.

The reason people are so vocal is that this is a really big deal for most of the RotW. Christianity and Islam are still OK, but the everything else was nerfed hard. Did you play eastern/dharmic/pagan countries? Vassal conversion was the only way to keep up. They can only get 3 missionaries max (4 for Jewish). This also means countries with lower conversion power can't use Najd or other countries with religious ideas to convert religious centers or inordinately high BT provinces.

 

[chrnno]

The reason people are so vocal is that this is a really big deal for most of the RotW. Christianity and Islam are still OK, but the everything else was nerfed hard. Did you play eastern/dharmic/pagan countries? Vassal conversion was the only way to keep up. They can only get 3 missionaries max (4 for Jewish). This also means countries with lower conversion power can't use Najd or other countries with religious ideas to convert religious centers or inordinately high BT provinces.

Hum that explains why I don't really care about this change unless I wanted to RP putting the religion everywhere I always got humanist precisely so I didn't have to worry about conversion pace. So what if half the country is of another religion? I still have 100+% religious unity anyway.

 

[Azieloki]

The reason people are so vocal is that this is a really big deal for most of the RotW. Christianity and Islam are still OK, but the everything else was nerfed hard. Did you play eastern/dharmic/pagan countries? Vassal conversion was the only way to keep up. They can only get 3 missionaries max (4 for Jewish). This also means countries with lower conversion power can't use Najd or other countries with religious ideas to convert religious centers or inordinately high BT provinces.

Actually I near exclusively play RotW/non-Christian/non-Islamic nations. That's why my suggestion was for adding other sources of missionaries. Vassal conversion was helpful in some situations but it was really a band-aid covering up for the fact that non-Christian and non-Islamic faiths don't have sufficient access to missionaries. I can't speak for pagan countries since I haven't played one since 1.12 came out, but the patch notes said they were given additional sources of conversion strength, so missionary access should be the next consideration. If that's not true though then that is also an issue. With religious ideas and decisions eastern and dharmic faiths should have the conversion strength necessary for all provinces. That being said I'm completely in favor of any buffs to conversion for these groups. It's a ridiculous disparity that a Christian or Islamic nation can easily get access to 4+ missionaries while other faiths struggle to reach their cap of 3.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

So, add some sacred sites in disputable areas for RotW religions that grant an extra missionary? Where would you put a Hindi Mecca or a Confucian Jerusalem?

Or add a counter-reformation equivalent decision for RotW nations that allow pagan, eastern and other generic religions to adopt the same benefits and restrictions as the counter-reformation? Maybe make it available after Westernization and call it "reverence of the old ways."

 

[grommile]

So, add some sacred sites in disputable areas for RotW religions that grant an extra missionary? Where would you put a Hindi Mecca

Varanasi, which is already marked as a Religious Center.

 

[carlleach99]

Cores represent a rightful claim to the land. A fake-Persia created by some Catholic would have no such claim.

I disagree. Nations, even large nations, can change religion, as was the case with the Roman Empire. Just because the religion is different doesn't mean their claims to their land disappear. Besides, the opinions of the peasants are irrelevant. The only thing that REALLY matters is that you, the stronger nation, has decided that that land is rightfully yours. Because really, who is to decide that land is rightfully yours but yourself? Let them revolt. They can challenge your claims and cores all day, but if YOU decide that your little Catholic Persia is rightful owner of that land, and YOU can manage to conquer it, what's illogical about that?

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Varanasi, which is already marked as a Religious Center.

*looks it up* Cool, and we can make it a holy site for Buddhist nations too. That should guaranty a bit of drama in holding that province.

Now we just need ones that Mayans can fight with Nahuatl's over. Maybe one for Mayans and Inti too, just considering their relative geographies.

A way for the Norse to score an extra missionary would not be turned down, though I'd sooner have that tied into power projection or military tradition, you know, give those vikings a reason to viking.

 

[tjayharvey]

I got that part, I am asking who is it that is not permitting me to do so. I literally conquered them with my literal armies and I am literally able to make them a core or release them as a vassal who is of the original religion.
So who is not making the permitting? the countries my own religion will certainly permit it. The countries of its original religion already have CB and relationship penalties with me and I welcome them to dare and declare war on me. The peasants already are revolting due to nationalism. That literally covers anyone in the game, the reason we are not permitted to do so is because paradox said so, because "millions of muslims" in the game would complain if I made persia catholic. But the thing is, they literally complain anyways as per holy wars and rebellions. So if they are complaining about it anyways I might as well get to put a puppet of my own religion.

For the same reason that you can't pick 5 arbitrary contiguous provinces and release a vassal out of them. Without the historical justification for the legitimacy of the state, the rest of the world won't recognize it (so you are in fact still ruling it even if you are pretending otherwise). Setting up completely arbitrary ahistorical states requires advanced diplomatic techniques (and more so the general change in political thought / world attitude toward nations that being placed so late in the tech tree represents).

 

[tjayharvey]

Work as in fulfill the requirements, sure. But I'd actually sort of prefer the complete opposite of that order.

most development total>capital>fewest provinces, not most.

Using development first should prevent the vast majority of ties with the added bonus of giving greater weight to the more developed and harder to convert provinces. Someone complained earlier that a simple majority of cores can still be gamed by gathering up a majority using underdeveloped provinces and converting them before releasing the vassal to tackle the hard jobs, but using development would solve that issue.

After that, I'd give priority to the capital's religion, hadn't even considered it before but now that you mention it, it has to be considered a hub of that vassal's government and so deserves additional weight.

Finally, if the capital is not one of the largest, then the religion that occupies the fewest provinces while having the same amount of development is the religion of choice because it is occupying the largest cities. The largest cities tend to have a dispraportionate effect on both culture and government so it just makes sense that the burgers of the newly freed Austria would care more about Graz than an equal number of peasants in their hinterlands. Plus, your newly released vassal will have an easier time converting those little provinces and so are less likely to break at the hands of religious zealots spawned by a 20 development metropolis.

Now if they can't sort by most development total, my order would be "ties go to capital" and then I'd agree with CNY10000 that this isn't a solution.

I like your order, but I would like it even better if it calculated based on religion of province at time the core owner list control of the province rather than the current time, but that would require a lot of fiddling that would make the calculation too hard to do in a reasonable time (or somehow associating a religion as well as a tag with a core).