If Life gave Hitler a second chance,what must he do for Germany to gain a favourable outcome in WW2?

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Invader_Canuck

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Unholy alliance. Soviets were eager to join the Axis, but Hitler was just too fixed on Lebensraum... and his own twisted sense of German superiority.

This isn't even remotely true.

The USSR even went to France and the UK before Germany invaded Poland and offered to form an anti-Nazi alliance. They offered to put some huge number of divisions right on the German Polish border.

We can only assume Poland said "Hell no", ultimately as it turned out, France and the UK turned it down and the USSR ran with open arms into the M-R pact. My guess is that Stalin had a sneaky suspicion he was on the chopping block sooner rather than later and saw a NA pact with Hitler the best remaining option.
 

Invader_Canuck

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Allowing self determination for the former Soviet citizens. Hitler would have probably rolled into history as the great liberator rather than the foolish conqueror.

You're separating a primary reason for the war.

It's like saying "How could so and so win the war for gold?"

The answer? "Not fight for gold".
 

wingo

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This isn't even remotely true.

The USSR even went to France and the UK before Germany invaded Poland and offered to form an anti-Nazi alliance. They offered to put some huge number of divisions right on the German Polish border.

We can only assume Poland said "Hell no", ultimately as it turned out, France and the UK turned it down and the USSR ran with open arms into the M-R pact. My guess is that Stalin had a sneaky suspicion he was on the chopping block sooner rather than later and saw a NA pact with Hitler the best remaining option.

Bot are true. I was referring to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Axis_talks
 

TallTroll

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Short answer : Barbarossa '42

Longer answer : From the European perspective, at least, the whole war hinges on the Eastern Front. If the Axis had succeeded there (and they very nearly did), nothing else much would have mattered. So, what could have been done differently?

Firstly, let's look briefly at why the historical campaign did not succeed

1) Delayed start date. The planned invasion date was May 15, 1941. Various events (mostly the Balkan Crisis) conspired to delay the invasion for several weeks (although it is worth noting that it is in fact likely that due to terrible weather in May - April '41 the start date may have to have been pushed back anyway), costing the Axis several weeks of relatively prime campaigning weather

2) Loss of the Fliegerkorps. Due to Enigma decrypts, the NZ Division on Crete pretty well rekt the German parachute forces, meaning they weren't available for action in the USSR in their primary role. Whilst we can never be certain that they would have made a difference, the success of other airborne forces throughout the war implies that having access to them would have been a net benefit to the Axis forces, especially given the scale of the theatre. A delayed Barbarossa would have give the Germans time to rebuild a viable force for use in the East

3) The Kiev pocket. Thanks to undue dithering, infighting and glory hunting in the German high command, several prime Panzer divisions spent about 3 weeks sat around doing nothing in Belorussia (or thereabouts) whilst the German High Command decided if they wanted to go for Moscow or nail the Soviet SW Front. In the end, they tried both, destroying the SW Front as a coherent force, taking over 600k prisoners, but failing to get the decisive victory in front of Moscow that they needed. Ultimately the additional, unnecessary delay cost them their best opportunity to take Moscow and score the decisive victory required to put down the USSR

Obviously, this is a pretty simplified analysis, and I'm more or less taking it as read that only an invasion that successfully took Moscow *in the year the invasion was launched* had a reasonable chance of overall success (by defeating the USSR, leading to its' capitulation and/or degeneration into civil war etc)

So, if Barbarossa had been delayed until 1942, what would have been the pros and cons?

Pro :

1) More good weather to fight in. Restoring the start date of May 15th would have allowed the Axis several more weeks of relatively good weather to do whatever the hell they wanted. Clearly a benefit for the Axis

2) Better Axis equipment. The invading German forces were pretty woefully underequipped in 1941. There were Panzer divisions still using the Pz38t as their main battle tank in at least some of their Pz regiments in 1941, and supplies of the PzIII / PzIV were still limited. These formations were fine for shooting up the BT / BA series vehicles the Soviets still had in service in their silly little Mech Corps, but the more modern Soviet tanks outperformed them, at least on the individual level. Whilst the T-34 and KV series tanks were in service with Soviet forces in 1941, their supplies were also limited, and the early versions really weren't very good, at least by comparison with late-war models and the Axis inventory.

Perhaps more crucially though, the German forces may well have been able to increase the number and quality of trucks in their inventory. In the East especially, supply was often the most limiting factor preventing or slowing Axis advances, rather than Soviet resistance. Even having been able to breed more horses and produce more modern horse drawn carts would have significantly reduced Axis supply problems

3) Missing the '41-'42 winter. That winter was brutal, even by Russian standards. 1942 was pretty wet, which may have gone some way to reducing Axis mobility (one of their chief advantages over the 1941 Red Army), but Axis forces suffered far more losses in men and material due to terrible winter weather than to enemy action in winter '41. As a (very) speculative sidebar here, it may also have been the case that the restoration of the Soviet officer corps may have been even more difficult in 1942 than it was in 1941, as it is likely that quite a number of competent but "politically unreliable" officers would have died in the gulags during that especially hard winter

4) Destruction of the Red Air Force. Although at considerable cost, the Luftwaffe essentially destroyed the Red Air Force in under 2 weeks at the start of the operation. This had less effect than it could have however, since Soviet high command was aware of the largely obsolescent nature of its' equipment, and already had plans, and production lines in place, to replace them with newer, more capable aircraft. Had it been those aircraft that were destroyed, it would have been that much harder for the Soviets to bounce back from the losses

5) A second Eastern Front. Things get even more speculative here, but bear with me. If Barbarossa *had* been delayed, what would the Axis have spent the rest of 1941 doing? Clearly, they were unlikely to have just taken the year off. Well, there were still plenty of other places to fight. Rommel (who was OC DAK at the time) was desperate to get proper support for the campaign in North Africa, and the Med in general. Plans existed for the invasion of other Allied bases in the Med, and Rommel was so keen to see them go ahead that he offered to personally lead them, in order to secure his supply lines and allow his troops in NA to actually do the things he wanted, rather than what his supply situation would allow. Had this gone ahead (and there would have been AMPLE resources to do all of it, rather than just shovelling them into the maw of a land battle in Russia), the Allies could quite well have been pushed largely out of the Mediterranian.

Had that happened quickly enough, the DAK and Italians could quite conceivably have defeated the British in NA, and gone on to seize a lot of the Middle East too with the aid of pro-German (or at the very least vehemently anti-British), and in some cases also pro-Nazi local leaders. That could have opened up potential land invasion routes to the Caucasus and Imperial India, which would have vastly complicated Soviet and Allied defensive plans. The British Empire would have been forced to spend resources defending India, and even a quite small force centered on the DAK could have invaded the Caucasus, denying the Soviets troops desperately need to reinforce their western front, and indeed possibly requiring them to divert troops from the main action in the West to guard their oil supplies, without which the USSR would have been crushed in short order.

It's entirely possible that Turkey would have been co-opted into the Axis as part of such an operation too, which would have been another major headache for the Allies and Soviets in it's own right, let alone any strategic or tactical implications for the invasion of the USSR.

Cons :

1) Second Winter War. There is some evidence that the USSR was intending to renew the war against Finland, and with the territorial gains they enforced in Round 1, and the experience gained, they would very likely have won. The Finns fought hard, and smart, but the Soviet war machine was always going to win a rematch, and that might have had all sorts of ramifications. Of course, it might also have made the Axis High Command take the Red Army more seriously ("We just need to give the whole rotten structure one hard kick, etc..."), which might have been good for the Axis too, in the long run

2) Soviet military build up. Although the T-34 mod. 40 / early KV series weren't great, they were still better than most contemporary Axis equipment, and there would have been more of them. Of course, the Germans would have bee better equipped, as noted previously, but more T-34s is never going to be a *good* thing for the Wehrmacht. Also, the re-equipment of the Red Air Force would have been at least under way, which might have been harder on the Luftwaffe, even if it hurt the Soviets too. The newer, zampolit-approved officers would have had several more months to get accustomed to command, and would likely have been at least marginally more competent too, which again can't be good for the invasion forces

3) Weather. As noted previously, 1942 had a much milder winter, but a very wet summer. The mud was often more of a barrier to Axis advance than Soviet resistance, so maybe it would have been General Mud, rather than General Winter who saved the USSR

4) Other. A year is a long time in war. A lot of things could happen, and they wouldn't all have gone the way the Axis wanted, to be sure. As a big maybe, what would the US have done post Pearl Harbour if the Axis and USSR hadn't been at war? Would it have made it easier or harder for FDR to cement "Germany first" as US policy, or have made no difference? We can't be sure, either way

Would Stalin, fresh from success in Finland, have launched his own pre-emptive strike into the Reich? The thought would surely have at least occurred to him. Again, hard to say, and even if he had, would that just have made the Axis task easier, allowing them to defeat the Red Army in the field before setting one foot on Soviet soil? Or would the Soviet advance have been able to blast a way through Poland and Germany and take Berlin in 1941 or '42?

Edit: Wow, what a wall of text. Sorry about that, but it's a big question
 
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Secret Master

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We can only assume Poland said "Hell no",

We don't have to assume.

The commander in chief of Polish armed forces said of the treaty "With the Germans we run the risk of losing our liberty. With the Russians we will lose our soul." One of the conditions of an alliance that included the Soviet Union was the end of Poland and Romania's military alliance. Another condition was that Britain would only guarantee Poland's border with Germany. I know I'd view such a condition with great suspicion if I were running Poland.

The Polish government assumed that once Soviet troops were in Poland, they would never leave. Turns out they were more or less right, by the way. Not quite forever, but the Polish People's Republic lasted 45 years.

To be honest, Poland was more or less screwed. If the Soviets joined an anti-German coalition and got troops into Poland, I don't see Stalin just having troops leave once Germany is beaten. At least, he would demand revision of Poland's border with the Soviet Union to pre-1922 conditions, and I can't see him not at least trying to establish a pro-Communist puppet in the wake of a war that defeats Germany in 1940. And we all know that rejecting the alliance with the Soviets results in swift occupation.
 
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Secret Master

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Some speculate on this Unholy Alliance and how it could have saved Hitler, though I'm concerned to learn how do we assume Stalin wouldn't be the one turning against Germany then?

Earlier, I was speculating that Hitler's worry that Stalin would do just that could be exploited by the Allies. The Unholy Alliance is far less of a boon if Germany still posts half the army and Luftwaffe in the east to prevent betrayal. ;)
 

misterbean

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a big question

Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't the Red Army about to reorganise dramatically in '41, when the Germans jumped them? If so, that would definitely have weighed in on the "con" side of the equation.
 

TallTroll

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Maybe I'm mistaken, but wasn't the Red Army about to reorganise dramatically in '41, when the Germans jumped them? If so, that would definitely have weighed in on the "con" side of the equation.

You are quite correct. This is partially covered in the 2) of Cons. However *deep breath* -

Mainly, they were replacing pre-war armour with poor, outdated doctrine with T-34s and KVs organised into more modern massed armour formations, and renewing the Red Air Force. The Air Force issue I addressed fairly well previously, although I glossed over the tanks a bit. So, I'll go into the tanks a bit more here.

The T-34 has this golden reputation as an awesome tank that won the whole war more or less on its' own. This is not exactly the truth. Late-war models (mostly the T-34-85) actually deserve some of that rep, but the first wave really weren't much good at all, and those were the ones in the inventory and being built by the Soviets at the outbreak of hostilities on the Eastern Front. It is true that the T-34 had sloped armour, a 76.2mm gun, lower ground pressure and all that, but....

The T-34 mod. 40 had less armour than later models, although still more than just about anything in Axis service. Also, some of it wasn't always actually armour. If you were a tank factory manager in 1930's USSR, you did what The Plan said. If it said you were to deliver 50 tanks per month, you delivered 50 tanks per month, or you got shot as a wrecker. But what if the armour plate that was delivered to you was only sufficient to build, say 40 tanks one month? If you only delivered those 40 tanks, it was, quite literally, your neck on the line. So what you did was get some mild steel plate, cut it to size, fit to the tanks and send them out the door with a patriotic (and relieved) tear in your eye. Turns out mild steel plate doesn't resist high velocity AP rounds very well, but hey, you're not a tanker, and you fulfilled your quota, so it's someone elses problem, Comrade

The Plan also said that the armament for a T-34 was a low velocity L11 gun, which wasn't actually very good. So you fitted L11 guns, because in peacetime, deviation from The Plan gets you shot as a wrecker. It's still a 76.2mm gun, so it's better than just about anything a contemporary German tank has. It's nothing like as good as the F34 that one of the plants (I forget which) started using just after the invasion, but still...

And the mod. 40 is using the horrible 2 man turret, which made it hard to fight the tank. And it didn't have radios for anything less than a battalion commander. And it was pretty underpowered. And the drivetrain was *so bad*, T-34s commonly went into combat with a spare transmission strapped to the engine deck in 1941, because you were going to break at least 1 transmission during the fight. If you were lucky, it was before contact, so you could replace it without being target practice. In his war diary for the end of the first year in the USSR, Guderian (or possibly von Rundstedt) notes that about half of all killed or captured T-34s to date were strictly mobility kills, because the engine or drivetrain broke, and the tank was abandoned.

Essentially, if it weren't for the fact that the Germans were badly equipped too, they would have just overrun the Red Army in '41, and easily. Later T-34s improved a lot, and quickly, because there's nothing like a hard-nosed German tank-driving bastard to rub your nose into "Why your tanks are rubbish, Tovarisch", and the Soviets were very good at learning from their mistakes. So were the Germans though. They got the 75mm into the field in towed and tank-gun form, increased the allocations of 88mm Flak for anti-tank duty (and rapidly developed a new, improved AT carriage for it), redesigned the Panther a couple of times (with mixed results), uprated the PzIII to the H spec etc. In the end, T-34s suffered most of all from having Soviet crews and being under Soviet command. Certainly in 1941, they were poorly trained, poorly led and used bad doctrine. If they were as good overall as the rep suggests, Barbarossa would never have got through Ukraine, let alone gotten to within sight of the Kremlin and the Moscow bus service.

Yes, a delay until 1942 would have allowed the Soviets to build more stuff. But the Germans would have been building too, and on the whole, even if it was a bit less advanced, they knew how to use it. You can argue that more stuff would have helped the Soviets more, because that was their thing, but using what they had, and winning anyway was the German thing (during the invasion of France, they were still using PzIIs as main battle tanks...). I suspect that a delay would have helped the Axis more in the end, but it's always just speculation. I think I've shown that the argument for delaying Barbarossa and using the time better than the Soviets could have is strong, but there are always counter-arguments too.
 
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r2y7h

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Hello all! I'm a perpetual lurker, and this is my first post, so go easy on me. :D

I'm going to try out my argument as logically as I can, but keep in mind that I'm no expert, just a fan with access to Wiki, the other HoIs, and the general internet. I've read pages 1-4 and 8, so if I miss something someone said or make an error, please point it out. Okay, here goes!

There is one major thing that would likely have to happen for Germany to win: have a less-crazy Hitler in charge during WW2. This means not only compromising his absolute dogmatism to "lebensraum" for Aryans only, eliminating "undersirables" from the Nazi Empire, and dropping the assumption that all non-Aryans are sub-human, but also being more open to compromise and outside advice. Absolute adherence to his philosophy and undying belief in his own genius would have eventually caused some coalition to form and destroy the Nazis, whether that be an external or internal one. This Hitler likely would have had a hard time being elected, however (who wants to listen to "these problems are all our own fault?" rather than "blame x people for everything!").

This premise underlies my theories: semi-external events would have still transpired as in our own timeline (e.g. Winter War) given similar WW2 events leading up to them. I admit a less-insane Hitler would have likely changed other countries' calculations, however.

With that out of the way, I see 3 possible points that Hitler could have salvaged a favorable conclusion.


1. Being truthful. This is the "Hey, look, Stalin is the real threat!" path. Hitler's stated goal before WW2 was to unite all German peoples under one banner. While this leaves the tricky situation of how to unite the Dutch, Luxemburg...ian(?) and native French German peoples into Nazi Germany, I feel that Hitler might have been able to achieve survival if he stopped at Poland/North Schleswig. Allowing the "Phony War" to continue without further aggression (Fall Gelb, etc.) on either side, while Stalin conquered Finland, Romania, etc, might have been the impetus required to shift Allied attention away from Hitler and onto the USSR. The allies+axis could have destroyed the USSR, and, once an armistice was called, I feel allied citizens would have a harder time wanting to resume WW2.

2. Forming the Unholy Alliance and bringing the USSR into the Axis without losing Japan and Italy. Stalin was open to this idea for various reasons (discussed above), and historical sources seem to agree that Hitler disengaged these talks. I think signing this might have sounded the death knell of the USSR as well. Hitler would likely have been able to accomplish the Fall Rot (possibly taking the troops at Dunkirk), and, with the added naval/air force muscle of the USSR (think 50 subs vs. 250-300 and 30 surface ships vs. 130). Though America might have been drawn in early by this, I'm not sure they could have effectively intervened before the Fall of Britain nor could have successfully invaded Europe against a combined Nazi/Soviet threat. With Europe parsed out among 3 major powers, Italy (with most of Africa), Nazi Germany, and Japan (with SE Asia, India, and possibly Australia) would have likely turned on the USSR as they all hated Communism/Russia, generally. The weak point in this is "how would the Axis have fared against the USSR?" as a severely weakened Axis might have been easy pickings for a combined US-Canada-native partisan assault.

3. Actually conduct Operation Barbarossa with a hard-fought victory (immediately pulling all spare resources east to crush all opposition) in mind, not "lololol0l Germany pwnz USSR." Tall Troll laid out many of these reasons above, and I agree with just about all of them. I feel people discount morale immensely when coming up with alternate scenarios, and an undefeated Nazi Germany that has pushed the USSR into disarray seizing Moscow before winter might have been enough to cause the Red Army. Remember also my premise that Hitler isn't evil in this scenario. A Wehrmacht with a proven goal of "let us remove the yoke of Communist tyranny and share in our Fascist wealth" would have gone over with the Russian, Ukrainian, etc. people better than the historical "let us [insert sadly numerous horrendous accounts of war crimes here] you to wipe you all out." With a defeated France and USSR (two of the seven global powers) under its belt, Nazi Germany would have been in a great position to peace the UK out or conquer them eventually.

I may be wrong in any/all of these theories, but they're my 3 cents on the matter. If I forgot/ was wrong about anything, please reply.
 

misterbean

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Kovax

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TallTroll and r2y7h make several good points, but ultimately all of them require one key point of difficulty: Hitler not being Hitler.

With a "not-Hitler" in charge, espousing hard policies against Communists and far less aggressive policies against various ethnic groups, world sentiment might have been a lot less unified against him. Unification with Austria was a problem for France in particular, both because it increased Germany's already sizable economic and population base, and because it shattered France's long-held insistence upon maintaining the status quo at all costs (which is understandable when you have a large empire that you're afraid of losing), but a "forgivable misdeed" for most of the world. Czechoslovakia's internal problems were already serious enough that turning several mostly German-populated pieces of it back over to Germany almost seemed like "the lesser of two evils". If Hitler had stopped there, or waited for further internal issues to shatter the country completely, instead of pushing for more at the first excuse, he might have gotten less backlash for taking another bite (including the national treasury to keep Germany from going bankrupt), but leaving a "token" piece to continue its existence as a state.

Had he stopped at that point, at least for another year or two, and waited for Stalin to become the worlds new "worst enemy", Germany might have been able to "liberate" a few areas from Stalin (restoring them to independence, MINUS a few pieces that contained sizable German populations or were needed to link other German areas), either with the reluctant acceptance or even actual assistance of other nations. By pursuing his racial policies less strongly, he might have gotten the active support of some of the "liberated" regions, such as Poland and the Ukraine, in exchange for granting them internal autonomy or actual independence, and only taking a relatively modest slice of the enormous western Soviet "pie" for Germany's direct control. Anything more than that wasn't something that Germany could properly garrison and pacify anyway.

In short, Hitler lost the war primarily by being his bad old self, and by wanting it all instead of settling for the high side of a reasonable compromise. Once he took power and set Germany on the path toward recovering its land and status by threat of force, or force itself, instead of compromise and agreement, Germany was on a short timer, and needed a long string of miracles to survive. Amazingly, the first few miracles were achieved, but that streak couldn't continue indefinitely.
 
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Secret Master

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Hitler not being Hitler.

Do you think Otto von Bismark could have succeeded where Hitler failed? Unification with Austria, taking land from the Czechs, and maneuvering Stalin into being the big evil bad guy even after Germany takes a bunch of stuff?

I've always felt that Bismark's foreign policy was almost the opposite of Hitler's (in methods), but not everyone agrees with me.
 
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dragoon9105

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The Trick with dealing with democracies is not giving them any reason to fight you.

If Germany had agreed to the MR pact, and them simply not participated, Britain and France would have no choice but to side with Poland against the soviets instead of Germany, Germany makes a small overture to join the War as well as allow british/french troops through german territory in exchange for Danzig. They beat the soviets, free the Baltic states and Ukraine and possibly break up the USSR further. Then France can be dealt with in a limited war to secure Alsace Lorraine, at a later point after the Russians have been dealt with.

meanwhile let Japan and China fight, If Japan decides to back the soviets and attack european colonies they will inevitably run into conflict with the US, and we all know how that story ends.
 
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Mirage11

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The Trick with dealing with democracies is not giving them any reason to fight you.

If Germany had agreed to the MR pact, and them simply not participated, Britain and France would have no choice but to side with Poland against the soviets instead of Germany, Germany makes a small overture to join the War as well as allow british/french troops through german territory in exchange for Danzig. They beat the soviets, free the Baltic states and Ukraine and possibly break up the USSR further. Then France can be dealt with in a limited war to secure Alsace Lorraine, at a later point after the Russians have been dealt with.

meanwhile let Japan and China fight, If Japan decides to back the soviets and attack european colonies they will inevitably run into conflict with the US, and we all know how that story ends.

There are a couple of problems with that.

According to the MR pact the UDSSR was supposed to invaded Poland 2 weeks after the German invasion. Therefore if there if the Germans won't invade the Soviets won't either.
Beating the Soviet army is going to be pretty hard especially without the element of surprise (unless the Soviets fail to notice the German, French and British army massing at the border) and while the Soviet Union hasn't learned the lessons of the winter war, the purges have not yet startet.
 

dragoon9105

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Thats a stipulation germany could have had changed so long as Germany knew they would be stabbing the Russians in the back beforehand.

And considering Germany has the Armored expertise and resources, along with French and British Manpower, they probably wont have much of an issue, Purge or no.
 
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CuckSlayer 69

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But in 1939, the course of the war can still go many other ways. It doesn't have to end with a predetermined german defeat. Germany actually won WW2-part I after conquering western Europe. They had not yet declared war on the USSR, the UK was under heavy strain and the United States had not joined the conflict yet. Even up to mid 1941, Germany still has the position of superior strength. Once Barbarossa gets underway, it's a more tricky matter though. Perhaps voluntarily retreat from France, Benelux, Scandinavia and the Balkans in exchange for peace with the Allies and commercial agreements to fuel the nazi war machine against Communist Russia. This would also free up many troops and materiel for the invasion of Russia. One on one, mano a mano, I can see Germany having better chances against the USSR. In this scenario, the US and the Imperial powers will lose interest and probably turn a blind eye to the war on the Eastern Front and perhaps nominally support Germany. If everything goes well, a treaty similar to the Brest-Litovsk could be negotiated with the USSR. If Hitler retires with this legacy, he will be the next Bismarck in german history and new Napoleon in world politics.

Germany did not have to lose like it did. They had great potential but the leadership was too erratic to achieve long term strategic objectives in a stable manner.
They offered France in return for peace several times.
 

peteburke

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I've always been fascinated with the idea of a successful North Africa campaign.
To accomplish this, the Germans would have had to devote far more resources to protecting Romel's supply lines across the Med, but I don't think it's impossible.
Taking Malta would have helped.
I see a Germany that controls the Suez canal and the oil fields of Iraq and Kuwait as a far greater long term threat.
 
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