If Life gave Hitler a second chance,what must he do for Germany to gain a favourable outcome in WW2?

[aruon]

how could hitler win the war huh?


...resign. right there at the very least the very effective assault rifle will NOT get canned due to a tizzy fit, and the first jet fighter wouldn't be cancelled in 1943 because someone wants his fighter-bombers.

 

[IsadorBG]

I used european as a synonym of sophisticated/civil. The truth is that Germany was led to doom by this radical leadership who were mostly uncouth working class plebs. No real geopolitical mastery or diplomacy game. The nazis were the total opposite of the traditional refined german establishment. No wonder, as they came from the periphery of german culture. Bismarck would be ashamed of them. Remember, this was after all, the homeland of Goethe, Bethoven, Einstein, Nietzche, Wagner, to name a few. The nazis as a sociopolitical phenomenom were the exception rather than the norm in german historiography.

And to respond your question, imo Italy in essence & symbolically for being the birthplace of Roman and Western Civilization.

Your deluding yourself. Anti-semitism was a huge problem in Germany long before Hitler.

Bismarck himself was a rabid anti-semit (and anti-pole) and confessed that he dreamed to exterminate them. Willhem II and even before Frederick the Great were also anti-semit. Nazis just went a step beyond the others but the problem lied in the European civilisation as you said.
The process was the same in Spain and Italy not so long before when Jews were killed and expulsed again the Nazis were just a greater scale.

Italy invented Fascism so... Nazi is 100% european and given the tolerence the Nazis had over everything non indo-european that would have been surprising if not the case.

 

[aitaituo]

I used european as a synonym of sophisticated/civil.

Hah, I don't often get to be both sarcastic and entirely correct.

I wouldn't be so sure. A better led Germany with a more rational ( that is, no insane racial ideology) and a more limited and realistic foreign policy agenda ( that is, don't fight most of the world's major powers at the same time ), has much better chances in my opinion to achieve a favourable state of power in a post-war order. I'm thinking, more like 1871, less 1941. More realpolitik, less political idealism.

Yes, while total victory over the Allies, including both the US and USSR, is not realistic, a favorable peace is not inconceivable and a white peace to pre-invasion of Poland borders would only be stopped by an unrelenting demand for unconditional surrender by the Allies, which was not a resolve they were able to ultimately keep anyway.

 

[Aleks S. I]

I wouldn't be so sure. A better led Germany with a more rational ( that is, no insane racial ideology) and a more limited and realistic foreign policy agenda ( that is, don't fight most of the world's major powers at the same time ), has much better chances in my opinion to achieve a favourable state of power in a post-war order. I'm thinking, more like 1871, less 1941. More realpolitik, less political idealism.

So basically, Hitler couldn't have won the war. Another leader, possibly a more brilliant one, definitely a more sane one, might have, but Hitler and the Nazi government could not have because none of them were that leader.

 

[brobman22]

I wouldn't be so sure. A better led Germany with a more rational ( that is, no insane racial ideology) and a more limited and realistic foreign policy agenda ( that is, don't fight most of the world's major powers at the same time ), has much better chances in my opinion to achieve a favourable state of power in a post-war order. I'm thinking, more like 1871, less 1941. More realpolitik, less political idealism.

Yeah but that seems like a Germany that wouldn't have started ww2 let alone elect Hitler.

 

[PanosB3]

I always laughed when I saw one of Hitler's special commands in 1942-43 saying: Each general/major etc will be informed about only what is immediately concerning him.

 

[dermeister]

Hitler couldn't have done it any other way because most of his mistakes were ideological in nature. Once you declare he didn't do X Y and Z in this alternate timeline, he's not really Hitler anymore.

 

[qwertzuiop]

Hitler shouldn't have attacked the Soviet Union and pursued a different approach towards them in general, but I think he practically couldn't. One should not forget that Hitler did not just dislike the communists on an abstract, academic level, but it can be assumed that he really hated them. At least he couldn't trust a communist government ever. After all, Hitler had been fighting the communists inside Germany ever since he became a political figure (actually he joined his party in the chaotic situation after WW1 when many right-wing people were afraid of a communist takeover). I think that "street-fighting mentality against the red menace" defined Hitler and the Nazi party so much that they couldn't change their attitude - and if they had tried, people would probably have seen this as treason and the Nazis would have lost their power inside Germany.

I think that whenever Hitler acted as a statesman, he was indeed willing to negotiate with the Soviets - then he remembered who he actually was and that communists are his enemies. Now it could be that Stalin didn't really want peace either, but the German perspective is already enough to explain why it couldn't happen.

So to answer the question, if we go back to 1919, there may be a chance for Hitler to do things differently. In 1939, I don't think so.

 

[PhroX]

Hitler shouldn't have attacked the Soviet Union and pursued a different approach towards them in general, but I think he practically couldn't. One should not forget that Hitler did not just dislike the communists on an abstract, academic level, but it can be assumed that he really hated them. At least he couldn't trust a communist government ever. After all, Hitler had been fighting the communists inside Germany ever since he became a political figure (actually he joined his party in the chaotic situation after WW1 when many right-wing people were afraid of a communist takeover). I think that "street-fighting mentality against the red menace" defined Hitler and the Nazi party so much that they couldn't change their attitude - and if they had tried, people would probably have seen this as treason and the Nazis would have lost their power inside Germany.

I think that whenever Hitler acted as a statesman, he was indeed willing to negotiate with the Soviets - then he remembered who he actually was and that communists are his enemies. Now it could be that Stalin didn't really want peace either, but the German perspective is already enough to explain why it couldn't happen.

So to answer the question, if we go back to 1919, there may be a chance for Hitler to do things differently. In 1939, I don't think so.

While Hitler certainly had an intense dislike of Communism, that wasn't be any means the sole reason behind the German invasion of the Soviet Union. There were also more practical things: land and resources. Germany in 1941 was creaking, she was low on many vital raw materials, her trade agreements with the Soviets were unlikely to be maintained much longer, as the Germans were already way behind in payments and had no way of making the shortfall up. If the German government wanted to maintain even the status quo, they would need to find a source of wealth and resources. And the only viable option was the Soviet Union. Then you have to remember the long term goals of Hitler's plans - to build Germany into a state capable of matching the USA. To do this, Germany needed land. Land that could only be taken from the Soviets. Without the "lebensraum" of the Ukraine and Western Russia, Germany could never compete with America. Finally, you can't overlook the fact that the Soviet Union was a threat to Germany - not, as some Nazi apologists would claim - an immediate one, but given another 3-4 years, it's hard to believe that conflict wouldn't have broken out anyway, and over that time, the Soviet strength relative to that of Germany would only have grown. Even without his personal dislike of Communism, Hitler had little choice but to strike when he did, lest he lose everything. In hindsight, invading the SU was a long shot. But frankly, not invading them would've been every bit as bad from the point of view of the long term goals of Naziism.

 

[wingo]

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the "second chance" of OP. Because frankly, he already got so many second chances it looks like he was destined to his eventual path. Whathever he or others did, fate always assured the outcome.
1. He wanted to be an artist, had several Jewish fiends, fate intervened.
2. Almost got shot as courier during WW1, fate intervened.
3. He failed a coup and was to be sentenced to death, fate intervened.
4. He never got a majority of votes, fate intervened.
5. There were several close attempts at his life, fate intervened.
6. Political situation looked hopeless, fate intervened (the whole remarkable string of diplomatic victories, most of which he just blundered into, like a blind chicken finds grain as we like to say)
7. After Allies declared war for Poland situation looked hopeless, fate intervened (the whole last minute gamble in France that could have failed spectacularly if the French did not play exactly into German hands).
etc.

And after each second chance he not only kept going, but always increased the stakes. No wonder he ends at war with the whole world eventually...

 

[Azulus]

Hitler was very determined about the soviet union. First the NSDAP always saw itself as the Antagonist of the communism. They used to connected communism to the jewisch people. As eraly as 1918 Anton Drexler (who co-founded the DAP, witch was later in 1920 renamed in NSDAP) wrote about the "jewish Bolschewismus". This means the soviet Union was the main enemy of the Nazi ideology. Hitler wanted to present with "Mein Kampf" a closed counter-proposal to Marxism. (It also stated, a two-front war should not be repeated and that should therefore be contrary to other German - nationalist positions , an alliance with England and Fascist Italy should be sought.)
Hitler wasn´t eager for a war with England, but for sure for a war with russia.
Secound "Lebensraum im Osten". "Mein Kampf" stated: "Wenn wir aber heute in Europa von neuem Grund und Boden reden, können wir in erster Linie nur an Rußland und die ihm untertanen Randstaaten denken" (If we now talk in Europe of a new land, we can only refer to Russia and the border states)(Adolf Hitler: Mein Kampf. Zwei Bände in einem Band. S. 742)
Nearly everyone in Germany had to read it and he didn´t really have a choice (even if he wanted..and he didn´t want) to prevent the war in the east.
The only possible alternativ would have been to delay the war. And even this seems impossible because Germany needed 1941 resources to carry one the war with Great Britain.
To the solution had too been found before 1941.
There a lot off what if Scenarios. (If Dunkerque didn´t happen, Germany invadet russia 2 Month earlyer) but at least i think every Scenario got a Counter (british too stubbern to surender, russian will just draw back a few Kilometers more before regouping). But in HOI i always Play gemany

 

[VinceDN]

I think the only way to win was to not play imho. If Hitler had tapped out after Czechoslovakia and abandoned his crackpot idea to colonize him some Lebensraum, Germany could have gotten out unscathed and with some great territorial gains. Obviously at this point the rhetoric was so whipped up not pushing forward with the attack would have probably brought his regime come crashing down, but this is the realm of speculation.

 

[qwertzuiop]

While Hitler certainly had an intense dislike of Communism, that wasn't be any means the sole reason behind the German invasion of the Soviet Union. There were also more practical things: land and resources. Germany in 1941 was creaking, she was low on many vital raw materials, her trade agreements with the Soviets were unlikely to be maintained much longer, as the Germans were already way behind in payments and had no way of making the shortfall up. If the German government wanted to maintain even the status quo, they would need to find a source of wealth and resources. And the only viable option was the Soviet Union. Then you have to remember the long term goals of Hitler's plans - to build Germany into a state capable of matching the USA. To do this, Germany needed land. Land that could only be taken from the Soviets. Without the "lebensraum" of the Ukraine and Western Russia, Germany could never compete with America. Finally, you can't overlook the fact that the Soviet Union was a threat to Germany - not, as some Nazi apologists would claim - an immediate one, but given another 3-4 years, it's hard to believe that conflict wouldn't have broken out anyway, and over that time, the Soviet strength relative to that of Germany would only have grown. Even without his personal dislike of Communism, Hitler had little choice but to strike when he did, lest he lose everything. In hindsight, invading the SU was a long shot. But frankly, not invading them would've been every bit as bad from the point of view of the long term goals of Naziism.

I totally agree with you from a geopolitical perspective, if the aim was to be as powerful as the USA, then there weren't many other options available - Germany basically had to dominate the whole Northern European plains to achieve this. This would make them kind of impossible to conquer, maybe not on the level of the USA or let's say China, but more difficult than anyone else. Now my point is that I believe people don't go to war over geopolitical squabbles - they usually go to war because they really hate somebody. That's why I find Hitler's personal affiliations more important than all the other things. After all, in theory it could have been possible to cooperate with the Soviets in such a way that the resource supply would be secured forever and that both countries could grow together instead of one having to take the other's position in the world by force (that's generally spoken, not directly referring to the WW2 era). In history there have been so many examples of different powers which "should" have gone to war because there was much too gain - but it turns out that people always find better solutions unless they hate the other side.

Also, I'd like to quote this because I think Azulus described Hitler's background better than I did:

Hitler was very determined about the soviet union. First the NSDAP always saw itself as the Antagonist of the communism. They used to connected communism to the jewisch people. As eraly as 1918 Anton Drexler (who co-founded the DAP, witch was later in 1920 renamed in NSDAP) wrote about the "jewish Bolschewismus". This means the soviet Union was the main enemy of the Nazi ideology. Hitler wanted to present with "Mein Kampf" a closed counter-proposal to Marxism.

 

[PhroX]

Oh, I certainly agree that Hitler's personal feelings majorly influenced his decision making. But my point was that those feelings weren't solely responsible for the German invasion of the SU, and that, if in 1941 Hitler suddenly decided that Communism wasn't actually that bad, the invasion would likely have still gone ahead due to the various other factors.

 

[yerm]

You're all approaching this wrong. It's 1939. Hitler's already screwed up international diplomacy. Nobody's ever going to trust him. The cat's out of the bag.

Instead of trying to fix this by correcting the stupidity halfway through the stupid, I propose doubling down on the idiotic. Fake Polish attacks to justify the invasion, then, instead of an invasion, immediately demand Italy join this defensive war against Poland without hesitation or reservation. When Mussolini refuses because it's lunacy... invade Italy.

France and Britain will probably be equally outraged and dumbfounded at this wanton German aggression, but, if history has taught us anything, it's that they wouldn't do anything about it in 1939, and Italy was a military disaster so the attack should succeed. Poland ended up hiding their loot, Italy would probably be much harder pressed to prevent the Nazis from using their treasure to fuel the ridiculous economic spiral they had going on. Stolen Uffizi works and the like should keep Germany in business until its Yugoslavia time, or maybe Poland take two, if the USSR hasn't gobbled it up anyway. Bonus points if this causes Japan to sever ties as this only helps Hitler.

Once the conquest concludes with securing the African Sudetenland, it's all downhill from there.

 

[qwertzuiop]

Oh, I certainly agree that Hitler's personal feelings majorly influenced his decision making. But my point was that those feelings weren't solely responsible for the German invasion of the SU, and that, if in 1941 Hitler suddenly decided that Communism wasn't actually that bad, the invasion would likely have still gone ahead due to the various other factors.

In my eyes, if Hitler noticed in 1941 that he likes Communism, the invasion would still have happened because he had many people around him in the party, government and partially the military who had similar backgrounds and hated communists as well. Moreover, a part of the German population probably had the same feeling. So if he hadn't started the invasion, someone else would probably have done it. But my point is that in a hypothetical situation where nobody hated communists (no political atmosphere in which Communism is regarded as the enemy), I don't think the invasion would ever have happened.

 

[viale]

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the "second chance" of OP. Because frankly, he already got so many second chances it looks like he was destined to his eventual path. Whathever he or others did, fate always assured the outcome.
1. He wanted to be an artist, had several Jewish fiends, fate intervened.
2. Almost got shot as courier during WW1, fate intervened.
3. He failed a coup and was to be sentenced to death, fate intervened.
4. He never got a majority of votes, fate intervened.
5. There were several close attempts at his life, fate intervened.
6. Political situation looked hopeless, fate intervened (the whole remarkable string of diplomatic victories, most of which he just blundered into, like a blind chicken finds grain as we like to say)
7. After Allies declared war for Poland situation looked hopeless, fate intervened (the whole last minute gamble in France that could have failed spectacularly if the French did not play exactly into German hands).
etc.

And after each second chance he not only kept going, but always increased the stakes. No wonder he ends at war with the whole world eventually...

This, combined with the numerous assassinations he survived, makes we think mankind will invent time travel at some point in the future and the "Hitler exemption act" is a very real thing.

 

[PhroX]

In my eyes, if Hitler noticed in 1941 that he likes Communism, the invasion would still have happened because he had many people around him in the party, government and partially the military who had similar backgrounds and hated communists as well. Moreover, a part of the German population probably had the same feeling. So if he hadn't started the invasion, someone else would probably have done it. But my point is that in a hypothetical situation where nobody hated communists (no political atmosphere in which Communism is regarded as the enemy), I don't think the invasion would ever have happened.

I guess that's where we disagree. If events had gone as they did up to 1941 except there was no strong anti-communist feeling in Germany, I still think the invasion would've gone ahead. The situation Germany found itself in, and the ultimate goals of Hitler, required land and resources that only the Soviets had. And the Soviets weren't going to give them up peacefully.

 

[Buttons12345]

Surrender immediately or at least attempt to allow France and Britain to agree to pre-war borders as peace terms after France falls. Germany had no real chance to win WW2, they had no way to force Britain to submit, the war in North Africa was an uphill battle from the start as Britain controlled the Mediterranean, and the war with the USSR was inevitable, the longer Germany waited the more the USSR could build up. However the most certain part was the lend lease act, the US had three of the four largest companies on earth, including the largest automotive, steel, and oil companies on earth, Germany simply couldn't match the US in industrial might not to mention the added industrial might of Britain and the USSR. Even had Moscow fell Hitler would probably just end up in the same boat as Napoleon, holding a burned out city of no strategic worth except as a hard point, even had Rommel somehow won in North Africa it didn't mean much as there is still the entire middle east to try and control, and German forces would already be spread fairly thin.

Germany could have won by a series of miracles but in all honesty there was nothing Hitler could do that would give him a decent chance of victory.

 

[vota dc]

Being the one whom Italy sides during the war rather than the one whom Italy starts the war = automatic win.