If Life gave Hitler a second chance,what must he do for Germany to gain a favourable outcome in WW2?

[DunkFunk]

Hitler needed a sympathetic government in the U.S.A, without raw materials and industrial support the war in the East would have come to the same result.

with the U.S keeping the British afloat in the war after Dunkirk they would have a significant amount of influence over the British to accept some sort of peace in the west.

Alternatively he needs to win in North Africa, close off the Black sea ports to Russia and hope for the best.

 

[tului]

The main reason though was that Germany would be occupying Poland forever. Hitler said "The Poland of the Versailles Treaty will never rise again" and he meant it. Since that was the reason Britain went to war in the first place - that and the UK doesn't have a great tradition for bowing down to continental tyrants even under threat of invasion - there is no way they'd sign a peace.


Anyway to answer the main point. I think "what if Hitler did this instead" is a very interesting question in general.

The main thing I think he could have done were:

1. Make smarter decisions. No stopping the destruction of the BEF at Dunkirk (though it's disputed if this was even possible and that Hitler's claim he let em go to give them a "sporting chance" was a bunch of reputation saving bollocks), no needlessly large Norwegian garrison, no "fight to the death" policies instead of smart withdrawals and retreats, no pointless African adventures and most importantly no anti-Soviet-minorities policies.

2. The Soviet rule had made most Ukrainians as well as other minorities totally fed up with their system. A pretty large Ukrainian nationalist army/ labour force could have been recruited from a collaborationist fascist Ukraine, not to mention the headaches solves there and in Belorussia from partisans by a friendly government. A friendlier attitude towards all civilians, Russians too and the stated intention of overthrowing the Stalinist regime and "freeing the Russians" (even if Hitler later was to go back on this) would also help greatly - a propaganda war of this value would probably crumble away the Stalinist regime, which was in late 1941 and after held together largely by the old strategy of brute force and pure hatred for the invaders. Remove #2 and it mightn't be so easy for Uncle Joe to keep on reigning.

The problem with this second point is that it requires the Nazis to be totally different people ie. not Nazis. You may as well ask "How could Japan win WW2 against USA?" and have an answer "If Hirohito had an IQ of 2000", the thing about alternate history is you have to work with what's actually there.

In the end though we can all be glad he was a bit of a dumb****. There are enough depressing Nazi Europe timelines on the alternate history forum as it is really.

I just picture high iq Hirohito using that massive iq to instantly develop transistors, ICs and the nuke.

 

[Adonnus]

I just picture high iq Hirohito using that massive iq to instantly develop transistors, ICs and the nuke.

Hah that's pretty much what I was getting at. That and he is able to manipulate his way into absolute power. Or I dunno, develop a technique that allows him to brainwash the Americans into thinking it'd be best if they all tried to swim from California to Midway Atoll.

 

[aitaituo]

brainwash the Americans into thinking it'd be best if they all tried to swim from California to Midway Atoll.

Hahah. If the Thule Society had successfully made a portal to Amestris... If Mussolini was an Ork and gained superpowers at high popularity ratings... If Mount Saint Helens erupted while the entire Pacific Fleet was stationed in Bremerton...

 

[Swinds]

Make peace after Poland and let Hitler retire and put the Kaiser back in power with Guderian as his prime minister

 

[KiwiNoob]

Make peace after Poland and let Hitler retire

I had the same thought. If Germany had ceased any hostile action following Poland the Phoney war may have never escalated. Even after Poland, France and the UK had very little stomach for war while the US would have happily kept to itself.

Though the result would be that Hitler would then have to deal with the very real economic problems of his regime which were not small problems.



My other thought was that if he had been a communist instead of a fascist things would have been extremely different. Germany + SU would have been a potent pair.

 

[Swinds]

Make peace after Poland and let Hitler retire and put the Kaiser back in power with Guderian as his prime minister

If not that then don't invade the soviet union at all. in 1941 have a proper go at GB and help Italy take North Africa and suez.

In the peace deal make GB, France fascist and then when make western Europe ready for the red hordes.

 

[Thiomay]

If we assume his Nazism was honest, and he would have stopped his conquests once all German people were under his banner, then we could say one solution would be to negotiate with Poland for the Danzig, either offer to buy it, offer economic aid (due to Germany's boom while the other Majors were still in Depression), or an alliance.

They got out of the depression by spending all there money and then some on the military. Annexing countries, taking the gold reserves and taking certain peoples property helped but that isn't a sustainable system. They had an enormous debt and an industrie optimised for war. You don't really get to this point unless you intend to attack.

Between forum rules and OP wishes I don't really have anything else to say.

 

[Saint Gwynllyw]

Under no historical circumstance has any power succumbed to another solely because of bombing. Physical troops are required to secure a victory. Even if the Luftwaffe had conducted a proper air war against Britain (i.e Bombing Oil plants/Factories and not cities) it is questionable to say that they would have forced the British hand. The point of bombing is to soften up the enemy before a physical invasion, not to force a diplomatic truce.

erm mainland Japan?

 

[Shatterfury]

He could just be a "good old" nationalist and only take Austria and Sudetenlands and then wait for others to trigger the war.
He should only come to the help of Poland if the Polish agree to give the Corridor and they will not do that until Warsaw is under Soviet occupation.

That lead the Allied war effort against the Soviet Union.

 

[Saint Gwynllyw]

Focus more on the Mediterranean. Someone on this forum wonderfully put the Mediterranean campaign as a 'task without a purpose'. If that purpose had been to create an 'Axis Sea', I think the war would have turned out very differently, even if Barbarossa has to happen, if the Germans properly planned to seal off the Med I think they might have stood a much better chance. I've finished Beevors 'The Second World War' and I think the Suez was there for the taking, but the Germans never had their heart in it. Even so, Rommel performed exceptionally well, under supplied and under resourced. The embarrassment of the USA in Kesserine is testament to that.

Anyway- on topic: After the fall of France and the CAPTURE of the BEF, the entire focus should be on the Med. The Italians tasked with Malta and supplying North Africa. The Germans should use special forces and plot with Franco (for supplies only, to protect neutrality) to seize Gibraltar. Cynrencia to Suez Blitzkrieg next.

I know its a tall ask, especially Gibraltar, but I dont think it was impossible. The Germans could work with Arab revolutionaries in Iraq and Syria to stir up anti British sentiment. Imagine Barbarossa taking place knowing the Med was an Axis sea? All that oil supplied from Iraq/Syria hassle free?

 

[MGL 86]

For hitler. Swear fealty to soviets. Accept whatever Stalin asked. But insist on german territorial integrity including Austria, Sudetenland and Danzig. Stalin can have rest. Become communist. Start cold war against UK. Outlive Stalin, become leader of communist Europe. If must think a new ideology about racist communism. Die peacefully around 1960

This is better outcome than total defeat for Germany.

For Germany, when Hitler turns to communism, revolt. It is going to be mess with nationalist rebels, communist Hitler, denocratic allies, Stalin, communism with occasional Mussolini joke. But still Germany can hold on to its 1936 territory since no one will have no idea about why they fighting in this mess. Even Stalin will want a way out.

Oh wait. This is HOI4.

 

[rocl]

An other option is to make a deal with Poland. Danzig for Slovakia and parts of the Sovjet-Union. After that try to create an alliance with other country's like Finland, Hungary, Romania, Turkey, Persia and Japan to attack the Sovjets. The West would most probably support the Germans and maybe attack the Sovjets as well. The Sovjets would have a three fronts war which is unwinnable.

With this option you can destroy the Sovjet-Union and have a lot of support of other country's

 

[Hammerstein]

In hindsight and once you read a few books like Tooze's "The Wages of Destruction" or Overy's "The Bombing War: Europe", you start to realize how fucked Germany was after they lost the Battle of Britain.

And it only got worse from there, because Adolf's dear buddy Benito suddenly became a liability as soon as late 1940 and 41.

* Nov 12-13 Battle of Taranto, 3 Italian BBs hit and one damaged beyond repair
* Dec 9, Wavell starts his offensive in North Africa and the Italians lose the 10th Army.
* Early 41, a British Expeditionary Force liberates Ethiopia.

So in 41 the first victim of fascist aggression is already liberated and Germany's only significant ally lost over 200.000 soldiers. At the same time the Greeks are pushing the Italians back into Albania.

Germany, despite having won every land battle, is no better off than before the invasion of France. They have gained a lot of terrain, but relatively little in resources and the productivity in the conquered countries is at an all time low. At the same time it's most dangerous adversary is still in the game and has started night bombing your cities (needle stings, but they still hurt your pride), the US is becoming more hostile every day and who knows what the Russians are planning.
...

There isn't really much that Germany could have done differently to change the outcome. Let's say it's 1933 again, the Nazis come into power, and thanks to some divine (or infernal) prophecy they now know that in 1940 they need a navy, an air force and enough landing boats to assault Britain. Not matter what, they would still be restricted by natural resources and financial and economic realities. And the steel which now goes into the fleet will be missed in rearming their land forces. Also how would Britain have reacted if Germany had suddenly started a huge fleet building program like the Plan Z ?

There was never enough manpower to have a huge army and enough workers, neither was there enough industry and resources to produce the necessary armaments to have a navy, air force and army capable of taking on anything, there had to be constant trade-offs and Hitler being his mercurial self, certainly didn't make any long term planning easier.

The only scenario I can imagine where Germany comes out ahead is to quit after the treaty of Munich. Grab Austria and the Sudentenland, maybe even Prague and then be content.

 

[Will Steel]

What if he, starting from 1936, didn't try to annex any lands except the old German Empire territory (no Austrian Anschluss for example)? And put the Kaiser back on the throne, rebuild the Imperial German Navy to again be the equal of RN and IJN, and threaten the Allies to give colonies back to Germany/buy them back with moolah?

He had the old territory of German Empire on the mainland anyway.

 

[IsadorBG]

1 - Hitler has a change of mind
2 - ???
3 - Profit

/thread

 

[KiwiNoob]

That solves none of Germany's resource issues. You cant have the Royal Navy without a Royal Navies amount of steel + oil

 

[mahrgell]

What if he, starting from 1936, didn't try to annex any lands except the old German Empire territory (no Austrian Anschluss for example)? And put the Kaiser back on the throne, rebuild the Imperial German Navy to again be the equal of RN and IJN, and threaten the Allies to give colonies back to Germany/buy them back with moolah?

He had the old territory of German Empire on the mainland anyway.

again equal to the RN? The German Navy was never in history even close to be equal to the RN. And it was never a strategically plausible goal to be equal to the RN, nor was it ever even close to possible.
Also Austria was a German Core since forever, it was always an integral part of the HRE. Austria even asked at the negotiations for Versailles to be part of Germany, after it was clear that they were losing the hungarian part. But the allies refused it, as they were afraid of Germany being too powerful too quick again.
And even if the referendum was "helped" a bit, the majority of Austrians indeed supported the Anschluss. So if he wanted to add anything to Germany, Austria was the most reasonable and most legal thing he could get. Unlike all the stuff he took from the Czechs.

 

[PhroX]

In hindsight and once you read a few books like Tooze's "The Wages of Destruction" or Overy's "The Bombing War: Europe", you start to realize how fucked Germany was after they lost the Battle of Britain.

While I agree with your post as a whole, this this stands out as a little odd. Personally, I'd say Germany were ****ed long before the Battle of Britain (hell, I'd say they were ****ed the moment Hitler secured complete power: his policies were entirely dedicated towards fighting a war they couldn't win) - even if they had somehow managed to win it (which was a pretty long shot), what difference would it have made? Sealion was still utterly unfeasible (even with German air superiority, had the RN gone all in to stop landing craft, they would've been able to do so, albeit at great cost), Germany lacked the range on it's planes to hit a significant part of Britain so they couldn't completely cripple industry or prevent lend lease supplies and equipment reaching the UK and so on. Britain ain't going to surrender just because they lost the BoB, and Germany is in no real position to take advantage of winning it in any meaningful way.

 

[lrbaumard]

There are some interesting theories and research out there that Hitler was not the totalitarian dictator he is assumed to be. He didn't actually have full power and was actually beholden to a lot of powerful German figures and institutions. I spent some time studying this.

An example of this is Russia, he himself did not really have an obsession/ burning need to attack Russia. However his promises for lebenschraum (???!!) and his talk of the power of the aryan race and weakness of the Slavs and Russians made him come under pressure to fulfill his promises.
For that reason I don't think war with Russia could have been avoided, if not there might have been a coup.

I'm not going to link evidence because I can't be "" to find it, but I'm sure someone else can find it