If Life gave Hitler a second chance,what must he do for Germany to gain a favourable outcome in WW2?

[dav77-b]

My Idea:

It does not need a "Sealion" to "win" versus UK.
Planes, rockets and submarines can "win" the war.
If Englands cities are in ruins and bombers&rockets are on action everday, and convoys are not safe, England would accept a white peace.

+ Planes&Rockets is something germany can easier produce than a big surface fleet.
+ Germany has some national-focuses to get tech advantage for planes and rockets.
+ Planes and rockets can be used for Russia later. A fleet is useless.

 

[Jorvikson]

Take Danzig in exchange for lands further east at a later date.

Convince Britain and France that the USSR is trying to destroy them, their empires and capitalism

Form an anti-Bolshevik alliance between all of Europe and Japan

...

Get large chunks of the USSR and be friends with everyone

OFC this relies on everybody trusting Hitler and everybody being McCarthy

 

[wingo]

Unholy alliance. Soviets were eager to join the Axis, but Hitler was just too fixed on Lebensraum... and his own twisted sense of German superiority.

 

[Aleks S. I]

I'm hardly a military expert, but I feel the way the invasion of Russia was handled was the biggest mistake Germany made. While standing and fighting to the last man was a strategy that worked for Russia, Germany could not afford the losses incurred by such a policy. Especially considering the general uselessness of the land between the Polish-German border and Moscow/Leningrad/Stalingrad. A well-planned series of defensive actions and retreats across this area would be less costly to Germany, while subjecting the Russians to the same supply issues the Germans were facing. While this does allow the Russian forces a larger opportunity to rebuild, hopefully German bombardment of industrial locations at the farthest extent of their initial push will limit this.

Also, the lack of centralized German command crippled their ability to respond to the D-day landings, and leaving Morocco in the hands of Vichy France left western North Africa open to Operation Torch. Aside from perhaps making better use of the industry in occupied territories, anything else is up to Germany's allies. Italy was horribly unprepared and vastly under-preformed due to poor leadership. Japan suffered from disputes between the army, which controlled the government, and the navy, which was the most important to Japan's war effort. Also, Japan's industry was not modern enough to keep up with the advances in technology that gave the allies and advantage later in the war. Ultimately, Germany lost because it was trying to take on the world alone. They either need better friends (USSR, US, UK, etc) or their allies need to be better prepared. Not possible historically, but possible in HoI4.

 

[Forgiven]

Wait for soviets to attack neighbors first.

 

[Acaios]

Support Rudolf Hess in his last flight.
I think that hitler could manage UK to sign a peace treaty asking some historical german lands from poland and alsace-lorraine. Northern france was really not necessary in a war vs communism. They were already humiliated enough.

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

Support Rudolf Hess in his last flight.
I think that hitler could manage UK to sign a peace treaty asking some historical german lands from poland and alsace-lorraine. Northern france was really not necessary in a war vs communism. They were already humiliated enough.

This is actually a very legit option. Historically, the germans sent the British a peace offer with Hess in which they stated that they would evacuate the countries of western europe in exchange for the development of a state of wohlwollende Neutralitat - well wishing neutrality - between the UK and Germany during the upcoming hostilities with Communist Russia. Churchill didn't accept it because Hitler couldn't be trusted as the german leader had a shaky record of kept promises and his very own domestic political position, which was built on opposition to Germany and Total War, might have suffered with a peace. After all, as soon as the war was over, the british booted Churchill out of office. I hope in HOI4, peace won't be that hard to achieve with the UK and the rest of the Allies. Peace is not impossible in WW2 and it should be an integral part of it.

 

[TheDerpyBeagle]

After winning the Battle of France, stopping the Dunkirk evacuation and causing a British catastrophe may have even forced Churchill to surrender, also not declaring war on the USSR, or the USA. Also not being a anti-semite could have helped with his foreign image after the war.

Going a bit off topic, but why did Germany declare war on the USA anyway? The US public was only riled up against Japan, it still didn't want war in Europe as far as I know, and it's not like Japan was a faithful ally and declared war on the Soviets when Germany did.

 

[that-guy-is-it]

After winning the Battle of France, stopping the Dunkirk evacuation and causing a British catastrophe may have even forced Churchill to surrender, also not declaring war on the USSR, or the USA. Also not being a anti-semite could have helped with his foreign image after the war.

Going a bit off topic, but why did Germany declare war on the USA anyway? The US public was only riled up against Japan, it still didn't want war in Europe as far as I know, and it's not like Japan was a faithful ally and declared war on the Soviets when Germany did.

Pride in the Axis, most likely. That, or he was hopeful that he would somehow be able to fight the Americans shipping goods to England more effectively, or maybe hoped to mess up some cities in the East Coast to get the US to back down.

 

[Krask]

The idea that war between Germany and the USSR could have been avoided is completely contradictory to the situation at the time. Had Germany not defeated France so effectively the soviets would have eventually swept through a battered Europe and brought communist 'liberation' to all. The stated goal of communism has always been the world revolution, as evidenced by soviet behaviour pre and post WW2.

It's also hard to believe that the soviet army, having more tanks than the rest of the world combined, planned to sit and twiddle their thumbs idly after such a massive investiture.

The only feasible way for Germany to end the war victorious is if they are able to knock out the soviets in a similar fashion as happened in WW1. Only then would the UK possibly consider accepting any peace offer from Hitler.

The only problem with this is that though the USA were officially neutral, they had been working aggressively against Germany at that point and therefore the UK ccould rest assured that the USA will eventually enter the war.

From anti-german propaganda to freezing assets, embargoes on Japan, lend lease to Germany's enemies, protecting british convoys in the atlantic 'neutral zone' etc.

With the war in the east over perhaps fortress europe would have been too much of a potential bloodbath for the war to continue, but given the industrial might of the USA they could probably just bomb Germany into submission.

So those things taken into consideration i'd say the only way for Germany to gain a favourable outcome would to be to not fight at all, build up it's military and wait for more conflict between the USSR and Poland, potentially presenting the ability to recover danzig diplomatically and shifting the focus onto the Soviet Union as the greater threat.

 

[Adonnus]

This is actually a very legit option. Historically, the germans sent the British a peace offer with Hess in which they stated that they would evacuate the countries of western europe in exchange for the development of a state of wohlwollende Neutralitat - well wishing neutrality - between the UK and Germany during the upcoming hostilities with Communist Russia. Churchill didn't accept it because Hitler couldn't be trusted as the german leader had a shaky record of kept promises and his very own domestic political position, which was built on opposition to Germany and Total War, might have suffered with a peace. After all, as soon as the war was over, the british booted Churchill out of office. I hope in HOI4, peace won't be that hard to achieve with the UK and the rest of the Allies. Peace is not impossible in WW2 and it should be an integral part of it.

The main reason though was that Germany would be occupying Poland forever. Hitler said "The Poland of the Versailles Treaty will never rise again" and he meant it. Since that was the reason Britain went to war in the first place - that and the UK doesn't have a great tradition for bowing down to continental tyrants even under threat of invasion - there is no way they'd sign a peace.


Anyway to answer the main point. I think "what if Hitler did this instead" is a very interesting question in general.

The main thing I think he could have done were:

1. Make smarter decisions. No stopping the destruction of the BEF at Dunkirk (though it's disputed if this was even possible and that Hitler's claim he let em go to give them a "sporting chance" was a bunch of reputation saving bollocks), no needlessly large Norwegian garrison, no "fight to the death" policies instead of smart withdrawals and retreats, no pointless African adventures and most importantly no anti-Soviet-minorities policies.

2. The Soviet rule had made most Ukrainians as well as other minorities totally fed up with their system. A pretty large Ukrainian nationalist army/ labour force could have been recruited from a collaborationist fascist Ukraine, not to mention the headaches solves there and in Belorussia from partisans by a friendly government. A friendlier attitude towards all civilians, Russians too and the stated intention of overthrowing the Stalinist regime and "freeing the Russians" (even if Hitler later was to go back on this) would also help greatly - a propaganda war of this value would probably crumble away the Stalinist regime, which was in late 1941 and after held together largely by the old strategy of brute force and pure hatred for the invaders. Remove #2 and it mightn't be so easy for Uncle Joe to keep on reigning.

The problem with this second point is that it requires the Nazis to be totally different people ie. not Nazis. You may as well ask "How could Japan win WW2 against USA?" and have an answer "If Hirohito had an IQ of 2000", the thing about alternate history is you have to work with what's actually there.

In the end though we can all be glad he was a bit of a dumb****. There are enough depressing Nazi Europe timelines on the alternate history forum as it is really.

 

[Acaios]

This is actually a very legit option. Historically, the germans sent the British a peace offer with Hess in which they stated that they would evacuate the countries of western europe in exchange for the development of a state of wohlwollende Neutralitat - well wishing neutrality - between the UK and Germany during the upcoming hostilities with Communist Russia. Churchill didn't accept it because Hitler couldn't be trusted as the german leader had a shaky record of kept promises and his very own domestic political position, which was built on opposition to Germany and Total War, might have suffered with a peace. After all, as soon as the war was over, the british booted Churchill out of office. I hope in HOI4, peace won't be that hard to achieve with the UK and the rest of the Allies. Peace is not impossible in WW2 and it should be an integral part of it.

well, afaik, hess decided to propose a peace treaty on his own, that's why hitler ordered the propaganda office to paint him as a mad men.

edit: btw, a lof of statements here are made just because we know the real outcome. A lot of people claim that bombing london was pointless, but you can say it now. Hitler wanted to do the same thing USA will do with japan. It was not a stupid idea with the informations he had at his time. He just didn't have the famous "long enough lever". this is just an example.

 

[Director]

Stop after Czechoslovakia.

 

[gianlucad]

Well, if Hitler had delayed the invasion of France the allies wouldve put Operation Pike into effect then everything would've been different as the USSR would be dragged into war against France and the UK.

 

[aitaituo]

Not be a total nutter?

I know MIR asked for responses that aren't sarcastic, but this is really the only absolutely necessary change for Germany to end WWII in a favorable position. The man was a total nutter. It may be a myth that the generals could have won the war if he just trusted them to handle it, but it's certainly grounded in a factual basis.

Take Barbarossa. Hitler insisted that the Wehrmacht take and hold Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad simultaneously. This is a massive operational area. The generals more modestly proposed taking only Stalingrad to cut off oil from the Caucasus and holding the line there while the Soviet army slowly starved itself of fuel. Alternatively, it was proposed to take Moscow, as the hub of Soviet railways, and accomplishing the same end.

Hitler insisted that the Wehrmacht take and hold Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad simultaneously, because what Mein Wildemensch wants, Mein Wildemensch gets. This was a suicidally bad plan that disregarded all practical concerns. And it still almost freaking worked! The Wehrmacht performed better than anyone, except Hitler and a few of his sycophants, could have reasonably expected, though in part because Stalin opted for a retrograde maneuver. If Fuhrer Cuckoo Bananas hadn't been in charge, it's plausible that they could have taken Stalingrad, established a defensible line, and held off the Soviet counteroffensive. At the very least, they could have prevented the catastrophic defeat that it turned into.

Germany doesn't have to conduct a physical invasion like Sealion (not even possible in the first place) to make the UK drop out. Just bomb them for a long time or go peaceful and play the diplomatic card hard and seek some sort of truce/peace. A stalemate against the world's largest empire is not bad, eh ? And it gets even better if it gives you a free hand in the east

This was London in 1940, looks like Germany in 1945.

That was pretty much the Nazi plan to deal with the UK. Churchill would have none of it. It might have worked if they had kept it up for three years or more without the US joining the war or if there had been no invasion of the USSR, but bombing isn't enough to compel a truce. Hitler would have needed the patience to wait for the British to elect a PM inclined to peace and probably a good amount of propaganda to convince the public that the Nazis were sincere in their claims that they didn't want war with Britain. Alternatively, Sea Lion might have convinced the British to take a truce even if they only could hold a small beachhead, but not going through it was actually one of Hitler's saner moments.

 

[Will Steel]

If life gave Hitler a second chance, he would buy a copy of HoI4 and play it.

If you wanted a real answer, then I am sorry, I can give you a real answer but it would break the forum rules and I don't want to get anyone banned.

 

[HeilLoki]

How to win WW2 as Germany: Kill Hitler May 24th 1940 (before he can order his generals to not attack Dunkirk)

The End!

 

[Magnus Imperator Rex]

If you wanted a real answer, then I am sorry, I can give you a real answer but it would break the forum rules and I don't want to get anyone banned.

Can you at least try without writing about banned topics?

 

[Will Steel]

Can you at least try without writing about banned topics?

It is really, really difficult to talk about Hitler and his history without the mention of the forbidden stuff, stuff that would result in my probation tag change into 'banned' and this thread would be locked and everyone might get some infractions probably. I hope you understand.

If we do leave out that stuff and speak plainly, he could've not gone for Stalingrad and instead focused on Moscow. In fact he would've tried to get Moscow before winter and appointed better generals. Moscow's fall would've been a really serious blow to the USSR, much more than Stalingrad. And secondly, he would've not let the Axis army line stretch that wide to allow Soviets to encircle them. He had been a soldier and a survivor, but he was a pathetic general when it came to real strategy planing, and it would've taken at least 3 lives to get it right.

 

[Noel84]

1. He wouldn't invade the Soviet Union, without the USSR involved the war would have been far more balance towards both sides.
2. He would focus more of his budget on the war effort and far less on other expenses.
3. Put more effort towards preventing the fall of Italy. He had two major allies and he let one of them fall without putting enough effort into saving them.