If Charles the great lived longer would there still be a viking age?

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Ivashanko

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Similar to how the Maygasr used to throttle any force that did manage to respond to their raids until the Germans under Otto the great forced them to fight a battle where they couldn't use such tactics and they got crushed. Makes it sort of ironic that the Hungarians fell for the Mongols doing that considering they used to do the same thing to the rest of Europe.

It is even more ironic that the Mongols lost to the Mamluks when the latter group used the same strategy.

And I know the Zulus beat the British in a few battles, but the Brits won that war in the end. I'm sure the Zulus thought the British superior firepower was 'dishonourable'. :laugh:

Did the Vikings aid the development of civilization in the west in any way? I studied the Varangians to a certain degree, but I know less about the Vikings in the west.
 

yonderTheGreat

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Did the Vikings aid the development of civilization in the west in any way? I studied the Varangians to a certain degree, but I know less about the Vikings in the west.

SIGNIFICANTLY.

1)They expanded the notion of sea-faring nations. Coupled with the mercantilism from the Mediterranean nations, it led to the rise of Dutch, English, and eventually American concepts of freedom-of-trade and the concept that "he who rules the oceans rules the world"
2)English Democracy is rooted in the Viking Thing. The Magna Carta, for example, was not really the English nobles getting upset and CHANGING the way things were done, it was a response to the changes that the Norman (French) Kings were trying to impose. The Magna Carta was the English saying "No, we're going to codify the traditions that we had for centuries that were given to us by the Vikings"

Yes, I'm oversimplying it, and yes, the Normans were only a few generations removed from being Vikings themselves, but they had absorbed the local continental traditions of Divine Right and general unwavering authority that didn't exist on the English Isle.

I'd suggest starting with "The Anarchy" in your search for more info on the English and their relationship with The Vikings. Make sure you research Empress Matilda as well.



Also, I'd like to specifically thank Paradox for making awesome games that inspire me to learn more about history. I really have learned a LOT from playing these games. Thanks for kicking ass.
 

yonderTheGreat

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Oh... and that's just England. Of course, if you're going to mention anything, it's England, cuz England had the most long-term effect.

But the Vikings also setup the Romanov Dynasty in Russia (Nicholas II traces his heritage back to Rurik, who was possibly the grandson of Ragnar Lothbrok) and the Sicilian Dynasties. Quite a prodigious bunch.




And, obviously, the Scandinavian nations/dynasties.
 

Ivashanko

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Oh... and that's just England. Of course, if you're going to mention anything, it's England, cuz England had the most long-term effect.

But the Vikings also setup the Romanov Dynasty in Russia (Nicholas II traces his heritage back to Rurik, who was possibly the grandson of Ragnar Lothbrok) and the Sicilian Dynasties. Quite a prodigious bunch.


And, obviously, the Scandinavian nations/dynasties.

As one who is distantly related to Nicholas II and the Ruriks, I know and have studied the eastern Vikings.

It is good to balance to know the positives and the negatives of the Viking Age, though I tend to be... biased against those who plunder and destroy civilized areas (Scotland and Ireland, in a way, never really recovered from the Viking attacks). But I'll study the issue more carefully before forming a concrete opinion on the matter.
 
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tywinzo

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Yes, there are sometimes recognized rules (such as Geneva Conventions) for warmaking but most of the time... whatever the victor did in order to win eventually becomes considered legitimately acceptable.

The victor also gets to write the official history, including all the "XXX the Great" nametags? Maybe it would be interesting to see the history of the world written more from the losers perspective :)
 

Closet Skeleton

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I'm not saying you are wrong, but do you have a source? I've seen the theory that viking raids started in part as retaliation for Charlamagne's anti-pagan policies and actions espoused in scholarly works so I'm not prepared to accept without evidence that it is merely a myth made up by white supremacists.

Not really, I haven't seen it in scholarly works so my bias is based on where I encountered it.

But you do get plenty of rubbish in scholarly works too, the fact that its mainly racist Neo-Pagans that adopt those theories does tell you something. It happens to less ugly political ideologies too, see Feminism and the nonsensical Kurgan hypothesis.

And all throughout history, it's the NAVAL superpower who usually won, from the Greeks thru the Vikings on to English and up to America today. Sure, there were exceptions, but generally speaking... if it's a land superpower vs a naval superpower... the land superpower is likely to lose.

The Greeks example doesn't hold water at all.

Carthage vs Rome
Sparta vs Athens

Persia lost to Greece due to logistics, their army was too big. The Persian navy came from Phoenicia which was a far greater naval superpower than Athens, the Athenians won because they controlled the good harbours through land power not because they had better sea power. The Macedonians who conquered the Persians were a land power, not a naval one.

America was an effective naval power once and it was fighting a naval war against another naval power.

And I know the Zulus beat the British in a few battles, but the Brits won that war in the end. I'm sure the Zulus thought the British superior firepower was 'dishonourable'. :laugh:

The Zulus don't seem that upset about the British conquest from what I've seen.

Did the Vikings aid the development of civilization in the west in any way? I studied the Varangians to a certain degree, but I know less about the Vikings in the west.

Only in England's pre-Norman political structure.

The victor also gets to write the official history, including all the "XXX the Great" nametags? Maybe it would be interesting to see the history of the world written more from the losers perspective :)

No they do not. Most of the examples of victor written history are when literate cultures defeat oral cultures. Often it is the other way round, the American Civil War is a good example.

The Magna Carta was the English saying "No, we're going to codify the traditions that we had for centuries that were given to us by the Vikings"

Yes, I'm oversimplying it, and yes, the Normans were only a few generations removed from being Vikings themselves, but they had absorbed the local continental traditions of Divine Right and general unwavering authority that didn't exist on the English Isle.

Its hard to tell whether or not Anglo-Saxon freedoms were a Viking thing or a Saxon thing. The Magna Carta talks about ancient traditions but it doesn't say they came from the Vikings. Usually Alfred the Great is thought of as creating all English values but that's just myth making.

Divine Right and unwavering authority were invented after the Protestant reformation. Normans didn't care about Divine Right, they lived in an elective monarchy where the King was a trumped up mayor and all the vassals killed each other all the time.
 

trybald

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Oh... and that's just England. Of course, if you're going to mention anything, it's England, cuz England had the most long-term effect.

But the Vikings also setup the Romanov Dynasty in Russia (Nicholas II traces his heritage back to Rurik, who was possibly the grandson of Ragnar Lothbrok) and the Sicilian Dynasties. Quite a prodigious bunch.




And, obviously, the Scandinavian nations/dynasties.

Romanovs weren't a male-line descendants of Rurik. The Rurikids were. Romanovs died out in male line in 1730 anyway. All later "Romanovs" were in fact German Oldenburgs.
 

nwinther

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Vikings weren't good warriors, they were good at running away and attacking defenseless people. It doesn't matter how strong the empire is if someone attacks a little undefended town. Even when they sacked Paris they only got away with it because the King was away, they fled from him when he was returning.

Somehow they managed to subdue much of the British Isles for some years and actually met armies in the field. That's pretty decent fighting, having your lines of communications 1000 km back across a sea. Sacking Paris, your LoC is 2000+ kilometers behind you. Beginning the sack in the first place shows that they still had some balls.
 

Mathrim

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SIGNIFICANTLY.

1)They expanded the notion of sea-faring nations. Coupled with the mercantilism from the Mediterranean nations, it led to the rise of Dutch, English, and eventually American concepts of freedom-of-trade and the concept that "he who rules the oceans rules the world"
2)English Democracy is rooted in the Viking Thing. The Magna Carta, for example, was not really the English nobles getting upset and CHANGING the way things were done, it was a response to the changes that the Norman (French) Kings were trying to impose. The Magna Carta was the English saying "No, we're going to codify the traditions that we had for centuries that were given to us by the Vikings"


That's massive bs. They had a deep impact on sea-faring techniques, but saying they created the Germanic concept of freedom of trade makes no sense. Plunder isn't trade, other trading powers existed and claiming free trade is a Germanic thing is historical revisionism. The Dutch Republic, the finest example of a post-Reformation trading power, was highly mercantillist as well. That is modern propaganda, not history.
 

Herbert West

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Yes, and the vikings, despite what the monks would tell you, were mainly traders. All those dirhams wandered up to Scandinavia mainly via trade.
 

Druplesnubb

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As one who is distantly related to Nicholas II and the Ruriks, I know and have studied the eastern Vikings.

It is good to balance to know the positives and the negatives of the Viking Age, though I tend to be... biased against those who plunder and destroy civilized areas (Scotland and Ireland, in a way, never really recovered from the Viking attacks).
The vikings also founded several British and Irish towns and cities, Dublin included.
 

User29

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Yes, and the vikings, despite what the monks would tell you, were mainly traders. All those dirhams wandered up to Scandinavia mainly via trade.

As far as I know Norwegians and Danes were mostly Raiders, Swedes did much of the trading going as far south as Baghdad.
 

Closet Skeleton

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Eh, what? The Kurgan hypothesis is the most accepted PIE theory.

A modified form of the Kurgan hypothesis, the original Marija Gimbutas version is a joke and probably what he was referring to.

Its barely even a theory. It basically just says that Indo-European languages originated in the centre of their area of distribution. Great thinking there Ms Gimbutas. But since nobody thought of it before you, we have to keep your idea of naming a theory of Indo-European origins after a Turkic word for tomb.
 

Arilou

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A modified form of the Kurgan hypothesis, the original Marija Gimbutas version is a joke and probably what he was referring to.

Its barely even a theory. It basically just says that Indo-European languages originated in the centre of their area of distribution. Great thinking there Ms Gimbutas. But since nobody thought of it before you, we have to keep your idea of naming a theory of Indo-European origins after a Turkic word for tomb.

Aww, and here I thought it was named after the villain of Highlander. /joke
 

Yakman

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I'd suggest starting with "The Anarchy" in your search for more info on the English and their relationship with The Vikings. Make sure you research Empress Matilda as well.
the vikings were ancient history by the time of The Anarchy.