Idyllic Bloomers can't bloom tomb worlds. :(

[klopkr]

I made an empire I thought would be cute. I combined Tomb World and Idyllic Bloom hoping I could make a peaceful species focused on slowly repairing their worlds into green new worlds.
Lo and behold I need to have an 'ideal class' planet to build Gaia Seeders and tomb worlds are simply not ideal.

Maybe it would be unbalanced to allow you to convert your tomb worlds too soon but having to wait to terraform them once before I can gaia seed means my empire will be waaaay behind any normal empire gaia seeding. Or for some strange reason I need to seed whatever planet I didn't choose instead of Tomb World.

How about instead Tomb Worlds can gaia seed but it takes an extra step or something to balance it out?

It'd be too bad to miss out on this combo when I feel that it's so poetic for a civilization.

 

[HFY]

Have you heard the good news about how the Worm loves you?

 

[Ryika]

but having to wait to terraform them once before I can gaia seed means my empire will be waaaay behind any normal empire gaia seeding

To be honest, I think this is fine though. You've chosen an arcane combination of effects to play a thematic empire, and what your empire is trying to do would most certainly be a difficult undertaking, so why would there need to be a shortcut in terms of game mechanics?

The way I see it, it's essentially an rp challenge run, and a potentially interesting one at that.
I can see the counterargument, but personally I like it the way it is.

 

[majikero]

By "tomb word" you mean the post-apocalyptic origin? It doesn't give you a tomb world habitability. You still have a normal habitability preference you picked at game start which is what idyllic bloom works with.

 

[klopkr]

To be honest, I think this is fine though. You've chosen an arcane combination of effects to play a thematic empire, and what your empire is trying to do would most certainly be a difficult undertaking, so why would there need to be a shortcut in terms of game mechanics?

The way I see it, it's essentially an rp challenge run, and a potentially interesting one at that.
I can see the counterargument, but personally I like it the way it is.

I agree it should be a challenge or harder but the problem is the gap between any other empire with this civic and the tech to restore tomb worlds is massive. By the time you can make tomb world you can make gaia worlds with an ascension. I feel like the right amount of time for turning your worlds gaia with this civic combo should be later than normal idyllic bloomers but sooner than any other empire restoring tomb worlds.

By "tomb word" you mean the post-apocalyptic origin? It doesn't give you a tomb world habitability. You still have a normal habitability preference you picked at game start which is what idyllic bloom works with.

Ah that sounds almost like an oversight rather than WAD. A check to allow tombworlders to build them on tomb worlds would be easy enough.

 

[TrotBot]

By "tomb word" you mean the post-apocalyptic origin? It doesn't give you a tomb world habitability. You still have a normal habitability preference you picked at game start which is what idyllic bloom works with.

if this is the case, OP, then what you wanna suggest is for the tomb world origin to have some sort of event maybe even an archeolgy dig which eventually grants you tomb world habitability. which would also resolve the bloomer issue as there would be a point in the game where it would begin to be possible to bloom tomb worlds, just not at the start.

 

[Deshiba]

I feel like the game would be more interesting when;

• Idyllic Bloom would be available to origins that modify habitability
• Apocalypse origin would get (a nerfed version of) Tomb world preference

If and when people feel Idyllic bloom is too strong for Life Seeded, Void Dwellers and Shattered ring you can just restrict it from the origins end if needed. like you know, every other restriction on civics pertaining to origins has?

Giving Apocalypse origin the Tomb world preference will make idyllic bloom as a balance interesting. Do you go Radiotrophic and keep Tomb worlds around? Or do you go Idyllic bloom and convert your tomb worlds to a Gaia world? Or do you take both and plan to go bio ascension to mod the trait out later?

This already sounds more interesting to me.​

---

On the topic of Idyllic bloom, I don't feel like it would be too strong on the mentioned origins because:

• All of these origins still need to settle planets first, get access to gasses and spend the time and credits to upgrade to a gaia world
• The changed Void Dweller trait sets a good precedent on how to counter Gaia worlds bonuses

 

[HFY]

If and when people feel Idyllic bloom is too strong for Life Seeded, Void Dwellers and Shattered ring

I thought those were incompatible.

Did you try them? Do they work with Idyllic Bloom?

 

[Deshiba]

I thought those were incompatible.

Did you try them? Do they work with Idyllic Bloom?

They are incompatible with the current version of the game. But the statement you quoted was uttered in case "Idyllic Bloom would be available to origins that modify habitability".

 

[HFY]

They are incompatible with the current version of the game. But the statement you quoted was uttered in case "Idyllic Bloom would be available to origins that modify habitability".

Oh, I see -- you were going off-topic.

Nevermind then.

How about instead Tomb Worlds can gaia seed but it takes an extra step or something to balance it out?

It'd be too bad to miss out on this combo when I feel that it's so poetic for a civilization.

There is a Tomb World equivalent in Planetary Diversity ("Radblooms") which are radioactive vegetation that -- IIRC -- you can transplant to terraform other planets into Radbloom worlds.

If I'm reading it right, that homeworld + Idyllic Bloom would mean you Tomb-ify your colonies and then Bloom-ify them into Gaia Worlds.

Haven't tried it myself though.

 

[Deshiba]

Oh, I see -- you were going off-topic.

Nevermind then.

Is it really "going off-topic" to suggest a change to the game to support what the OP suggests? I think not.

 

[Nebbie Zebbie]

Idyllic Bloom is trash. It having exclusions with 3 origins is just so weird, it's like they wanted to make an origin, but said "nope we've got too many, do it the old way like Mechanist before it was an origin". What combination is it being a civic for if not Post-apocalyptic? Lost Colony? Tree of Life?
It would be fine if it was an origin and gave you a Gaia homeworld up front, sort of like a less intense Life-Seeded where you can go spend resources on converting other worlds.

 

[HFY]

Idyllic Bloom is trash. It having exclusions with 3 origins is just so weird, it's like they wanted to make an origin, but said "nope we've got too many, do it the old way like Mechanist before it was an origin". What combination is it being a civic for if not Post-apocalyptic? Lost Colony? Tree of Life?
It would be fine if it was an origin and gave you a Gaia homeworld up front, sort of like a less intense Life-Seeded where you can go spend resources on converting other worlds.

Idyllic Bloom really wants to be an Origin. Making it the "good" Origin which starts with a Gaia World but not Gaia World preference would be fine IMHO.

Maybe merge Life Seeded into Scion so you start with absurd Scion perks -- and on a Gaia World -- but you're stuck with the terrible Gaia World preference in trade.

 

[Deshiba]

Idyllic Bloom is trash. It having exclusions with 3 origins is just so weird, it's like they wanted to make an origin, but said "nope we've got too many, do it the old way like Mechanist before it was an origin". What combination is it being a civic for if not Post-apocalyptic? Lost Colony? Tree of Life?
It would be fine if it was an origin and gave you a Gaia homeworld up front, sort of like a less intense Life-Seeded where you can go spend resources on converting other worlds.

Idyllic Bloom has potential. It's just weird that they chose to make it incompatible with any origin that modifies your preference. I feel like with a bit of work they could make it fit without being overpowered.

 

[HFY]

Idyllic Bloom has potential. It's just weird that they chose to make it incompatible with any origin that modifies your preference. I feel like with a bit of work they could make it fit without being overpowered.

The banned origins would generally be underpowered or just not useful -- e.g. Life Seeded would mean you can turn any Gaia World (your preference) into a Gaia World (Idyllic Bloom), which is not particularly overpowered, but also not useful.

Shattered Ring would be weird, what does it mean to turn a Ring World into a Gaia World?

 

[klopkr]

You wanted a better understanding of my disagree so here it is.

Idyllic Bloom really wants to be an Origin. Making it the "good" Origin which starts with a Gaia World but not Gaia World preference would be fine IMHO.

Maybe merge Life Seeded into Scion so you start with absurd Scion perks -- and on a Gaia World -- but you're stuck with the terrible Gaia World preference in trade.

I don't think it should be an Origin because my whole combo literally relies on it not being an origin.

Plus The last thing I want is fewer options with idyllic bloom or not getting to use it on my capital world which to me feels like half the point of the civic.

On your second point life seeded and scion are two very different flavours and merging them would give us much fewer options for roleplay for both scions and Life Seeded.

I'm ok with life seeded getting an updated back story though since now clone armies, scion, and shoulders of giants kind of do.

The banned origins would generally be underpowered or just not useful -- e.g. Life Seeded would mean you can turn any Gaia World (your preference) into a Gaia World (Idyllic Bloom), which is not particularly overpowered, but also not useful.

Shattered Ring would be weird, what does it mean to turn a Ring World into a Gaia World?

Life seeded and Idyllic Bloom are a born combo and tbh probably just a straight up bonus since it significantly speeds up the amount of time it would take to make other planets useful to your primary species. I think it should still be allowed though since I've never been too worried about good civic synergies. I don't really feel that most civics and origins are balanced so it should only really matter in MP.

I agree a gaia ringworld makes no sense since they're kind of already gaia. You should be able to take it anyways though and gaiafy non ring worlds.

 

[HFY]

You wanted a better understanding of my disagree so here it is.

I don't think it should be an Origin because my whole combo literally relies on it not being an origin.

Plus The last thing I want is fewer options with idyllic bloom or not getting to use it on my capital world which to me feels like half the point of the civic.

On your second point life seeded and scion are two very different flavours and merging them would give us much fewer options for roleplay for both scions and Life Seeded.

I'm ok with life seeded getting an updated back story though since now clone armies, scion, and shoulders of giants kind of do.

Life Seeded is trash right now. It needs significant changes, or it needs to be labeled as a special challenge.

Also, being "Life Seeded" by an older civ seems compatible with Scion, since their biggest flavor element -- your more-advanced benefactor -- is the same. That said, there's not nearly as big a need to update Scion, it works fine as-is, but it could still be competitive with a nerf, and Life Seeded would be a nerf.


If Idyllic Bloom were an Origin, your whole combo would work equally well (i.e. you would still need to love The Worm).

There would be no functional change from your perspective.

You can't start with Tomb World habitability now, so you'd lose nothing.

 

[klopkr]

Life Seeded is trash right now. It needs significant changes, or it needs to be labeled as a special challenge.

Also, being "Life Seeded" by an older civ seems compatible with Scion, since their biggest flavor element -- your more-advanced benefactor -- is the same. That said, there's not nearly as big a need to update Scion, it works fine as-is, but it could still be competitive with a nerf, and Life Seeded would be a nerf.


If Idyllic Bloom were an Origin, your whole combo would work equally well (i.e. you would still need to love The Worm).

There would be no functional change from your perspective.

You can't start with Tomb World habitability now, so you'd lose nothing.

I'm 99% sure life seeded is intended to be a 'challenge'. I remember it being added early on for single planet and tall challenges. I think they tried to balance it so it's not just a challenge origin but I don't think it ever changed significantly enough.

I'm not against a scion/life seeded combo origin if the existing two are also still an option but I think giving life seeded a special project like the clone army would be a better solution.

If idyllic bloom could be combined with it it might make it less of a challenge origin! It would fit my request to make it work with post apocalyptic too.

Combining Idyllic Bloom with Post Apocalyptic and the ability to fix your tomb worlds is literally the entire reason I made this thread. If Idyllic bloom was an origin I wouldn't be able to select them both, which I can right now. Why would I ever want that? I don't select idyllic bloom to play life seeded. I don't want to play life seeded. I don't want them combined as a single origin.

The more I think about it the less I agree Idyllic bloom should ever be an origin.

 

[HFY]

I'm 99% sure life seeded is intended to be a 'challenge'. I remember it being added early on for single planet and tall challenges. I think they tried to balance it so it's not just a challenge origin but I don't think it ever changed significantly enough.

I'm not against a scion/life seeded combo origin if the existing two are also still an option but I think giving life seeded a special project like the clone army would be a better solution.

Life Seeded was added as a tool to make one-system challenges easier, but never updated after the metagame changed in 2.2, so now it's just kind of a vestigial pain in the butt.

If idyllic bloom could be combined with it it might make it less of a challenge origin! It would fit my request to make it work with post apocalyptic too.

Combining Idyllic Bloom with Post Apocalyptic and the ability to fix your tomb worlds is literally the entire reason I made this thread. If Idyllic bloom was an origin I wouldn't be able to select them both, which I can right now. Why would I ever want that?

I mean, you can't do that now, you'd need to make a custom Origin to get what you want either way -- there's no change, but you would get an extra Civic, and that's nice isn't it?

If you want Idyllic Tombs you need to embrace the Worm:

Does the Worm love Idyllic Bloomers?

When you embrace the Worm, can you use Idyllic Bloom on Tomb Worlds? Thinking about Becoming the Crisis as a florist.

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Check out the proposal from this clever fellow (who is also handsome).

 

[klopkr]

Life Seeded was added as a tool to make one-system challenges easier, but never updated after the metagame changed in 2.2, so now it's just kind of a vestigial pain in the butt.

Yeah so it's cool to update it but it's still functioning as a challenge origin (or a balanced towards being crap origin). A warning or an update would be nice. It doesn't need to cannibalize other origins and civics to get that.

Regardless I don't even care about Life seeded. I feel like somehow it's become a topic of this thread when we both agree in different ways it can be updated and made better.

What I highly disagree with is breaking existing combos, civics, and origins to do so. It's just a bad suggestion. I don't want to lose aspects of the game I enjoy for an origin I only use for larping.

I mean, you can't do that now, you'd need to make a custom Origin to get what you want either way -- there's no change, but you would get an extra Civic, and that's nice isn't it?

If you want Idyllic Tombs you need to embrace the Worm:

Does the Worm love Idyllic Bloomers?

When you embrace the Worm, can you use Idyllic Bloom on Tomb Worlds? Thinking about Becoming the Crisis as a florist.

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Check out the proposal from this clever fellow (who is also handsome).

THE POINT OF THE THREAD IS TO ASK FOR IT TO BE FIXED. Please I know what I can and can't do. I know that if I get the worm I can get what I want. No I don't want to rely on an extremely RNG meme event to fix something I basically consider an oversight. I don't care if the worm fixes the life seeded or clone origins either.

I can currently select Idyllic Bloom and Post-Apocalyptic. A combo I was really excited about because it feels like a RP fixing the mistakes of my empires past. Like a gardener bringing a planet back to life. I do not want to lose that combo for any reason. I originally made this combo hoping to see an AI empire slowly fix their tomb worlds into gaias. That can't happen even with the worm.

The game doesn't tell you clearly that Idyllic bloom will not work on planets without your empires preference and that post-apocalyptic wont make tombworlds your empires preference.

The only fix this needs to be 100% playable is a line of code allowing idyllic bloom on tombworlds if your origin is post apocalyptic. If I didn't love ironman mode I'd have a mod for this fix in a pinch.

Your suggestions are lukewarm to me, your fixes are just a sidestep based on RNG and memes, you've asked me to explain why I disagree with you, and you don't even want the thing I made this thread about. Please you are not going to convince me of anything and I feel like you're completely missing my intentions with this thread.