IdeologiCORE

[Maximilian I]

calm down!

 

[unmerged(51143)]

Dear Depaz, I cannot imagine you were Italian too, I am sorry: but your point of view, Italian or not, is bad, wrong, unhistorical, "bloody" for the exaltation of class fighting (a thing also banned by Italian law, as Fascism...), hypocrit for your critics to Stalin (you cannot wear USSR flag without considering Stalin the "father of the Nation": USSR simply would have dissolved, or even never been created, without Josif Vissarionovic), considering everything not from extreme political left side as Fascist (or nationalistic - not a bad idea if well used, France and USA know - or "workers-exploiting" etc.) and definetely strictly minoritarian in Italy as in any other World country except Cuba.
Your history studies are affected by the "worm" of marxist history which, unfortunately, makes Italian historiography stick from decades (even if some good men have appeared from this miasma): the worst thing is that ONCE Communism was ruling in many world countries, but TODAY you are living in your history books.
I can have some "nationalistic" points of view, but I am a catholic-liberal (let's be precise, I am not an Anglosaxon liberal, I am "social conservative" and liberal for economics - not liberist, nor supporting the swindlers who are being taken under trial neither their friend the Governor), I do not like my (and yours) Prime Minister, but I consider him as an error and Communism as the biggest tragedy in human history, maybe worse than Nazism, surely worse than Fascism. But I am not a Fascist, neither I like its supporters.
In the end, I would take a rifle and kill people and risk to be killed as a soldier (or better an officier as in my family's tradition) if Italy ask me it, and I have no shame to write it.

I beg your pardon for my post, but history could not be separated by ideology nor personal facts, unfortunately.

 

[unmerged(36425)]

FACT: Italy receives a +1 bonus to stylish automobile production but may only use government types ANARCHY and DESPOTISM*




* That was a Civilization joke, please don't flame me......

 

[unmerged(51143)]

I always find it rather funny when people try to explain that some countries (namely Italy), is too weak or underpowered in the game. If anything it is usually way overpowered.

Historically Italy did about as well as it could. It is a bit weak to try to blame Italy's inability to conquer the world (or even Greece) on allied propaganda.

One of the great things about the first CORE was the way it reduced the stats of the French and Italian divisions to more realistic levels.

I have a different opinion. I do not want to transform Italy in a second Germany, just to give my country (in the game) the possibility to build all the historically built units: L3 and M11 tanks armoured divisions in the real history were pitiful, but in the game building 3 of such armoured divisions is very expensive, in IC and in time; plus 2 modern battleships, motorised divisions etc. All this before '40: so, Italy would need little more IC, not much; raw materials needing would reduce this IC by war time, as historically happened. We have to remember that game's IC could not be considered strictly historical, but should be considered in function of units (and infrastructures) building needing.
The real matter of Italian inability in the war was not to have a serious commander in chief, Mussolini was a disgraceful leader by war, without any strategic plan or military competence, despite all this he assumed the "overcommand" (as Hitler); moreover, among highest ranks only a few generals were really good soldiers, and these ones remained on WW1 ideas (like Badoglio, a brilliant tacticist and strategist in the Great War but out of time in WW2 - to be honest, we have to say that the most part of European generals were not better by this point of view, even in UK and Germany, but Italy lacked the Liddell Hart and the Guderian). Thus Italy failed fully in 1940: attacking British Empire without taking Malta and without concentrating all its "mechanised" forces on Egypt to advance on the Channel; invading Greece only by a mountain front, with half the infantry divisions that Greece had and at the beginning of winter (actually, Italian strong air superiority in Greece was never usefull on such a front); attacking France without being able to take at least Corsica and Nizza (which were the only reasons the King saw to declare war); never starting building any aircraft carrier until the end of 1941; etc.

 

[Sir Humphrey]

The Italians on paper were not bad in military terms. However the very structure of the Italian army (binary) so the divisions were smaller, the mixing of "elite" brigades with lower quality troops rather than in proper sized formations, the pathetic inter service cooperation, the awful tank design, the rapid decleration of war which caught a large part of the merchant fleet abroad, little stock of fuel oil (which kept the fleet at port more somewhat), cautious commanders and poor direction of the overall campaign and planning.

 

[unmerged(2619)]

A little, maybe annoying premise, and then I will afford the problem posed by Vincent Julien, problem that was in fact the core of my first thread. I felt my self-attacked and I think I’ve the right to reply, even if I don’t need to justify my political position if front of anybody because my conscience and my moral are both clear and pure. So Let me say just few things.
Dear FilTur, strange sorry is yours, followed by many adjective as bad, wrong, unhistorical, and above all "bloody" and hypocrit. I don’t live in the past, I live in the presents and, most important, I wanna a future for me and for this planet. Capitalism and ultraliberist development model is clearly driving the word to a self-destrcution (wars, pauperization, global warning and so on) so a new multilateral and fair model is urgently needed. Call it how you want (if you wonna replace communism word, I don’t care) but there is no choice: something different must replace capitalism to assure our planet existence. I don’t wanna neither come back to middle-age as it seems catholic hierarchy would like (see recent Vatican’s ingerence in the italian political life: against abort, gay marriages and so on... or such very sharp Ratzinger’s assertions like “the treatment against AIDS is not making love”). Lastly I know what kind of degeneration became USSR and if I used that flag is because I don’t think red flag and hammer and sickle could be monopolized from stalinist.
To Antiochus V, who seemed doesn’t know what I intended as ‘internationalist perspective’, and to Aussie_Jim who spoked about Trotsky... sorry when I said internationalist I didn’t spoke about IV International. That assertion simply means I don’t trust in politically borders and that I can find my self more politically closed to a korean farmer who now is protesting in Honk Hong against WTO conference than to my boirgoise boss or my gouvernement.
About marxist historiography only a blind could assert it didn’t give the scholars very important tools to understand the past mechanics and even contemporary mechanics. Also not marxist historians recognized it. If you don’t want accept that I suggest you to invent the time machine and come back to XIX century with its “histoire evenementielle” as french ppl say. And quoting FilTur “history could not be separated by ideology nor personal facts, unfortunately”, I can subscribe in part this assertion very marxist in fact ... simply substituing the word ideology with the word “material positions”



Now arriving to my previous disputes. I don’t say anything about your disputes on military history, brigades, navy, tanks and so on (I always found it boring ecxept in wargames, so sure here there are many ppl much more skilled than me in this matter)

1) I reapeat such signature as “Beleive, Obey, Fight! - Benito Mussolini“ and “Ein volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer-Adolf Hitler“ can’t be tolerated in any forum. Especially if hosted in a democratic counrty as Sweden is.

2) quoting again FilTur for an event about italian autarchy “"Nations Society voted for sanctions! - But Italy will stand up and mobilise every one, men and women, elders and children, against this iniquity", energy stock +5000 metal stock +5000 rare materials stock +2500 oil stock +1000, relations with UK -100 with France -100 with Germany +50 with USA +25, any commerce agreements with UK and France broken and (if this is possible to do in the game) no commerce agreement will be available with these Nations for 2 years, dissent -5% (Italian people reacted to sanctions by supporting Fascist Regime and then the Country)” . I can accept a reduction of dissent (Etiopia’s annextion and international sanctions really coincided with the top of consensus reached by the regime). What I find wrong is that consistent stock raise. Nothing could justify it. Economically few things changed after sanctions (imposed for the ethipian aggression and for the massive chemical warfare use), also beacause they were more a propaganda assertion than real sanctions (for exemple oil didn’t include between bycotted products)

3) I don’t agree with the Italy’s suggested claims. Why should Italy rivendicate region like Ticino in Swiss? Swiss is Swiss since middle age and nobody between italian risorgimento’s politicians or even XX century politicians dreamt to claim it. They speak italian but this don’t mean anything. Same discours for Corsica (after genuan domination) and by the way try to ask to a corse if he feel himself italian. Of course imperialist fascist politics could claim what he wants but it doesn’t mean this should historically based. Albania for ecemple is another exemple. I think paradoxians put the country as claimed by Italy just to balance the game and to push Ai and players to a more historically output. So if Ticino or Corsica or Savoy too were not calimed for real by the fascism and neither by some italian previous ppl. Why should CORE inser it?

4) About RSI I think fired event should trasform it in a puppet state as it was for real. Even before Mussolini’s nazi liberation (arrested after 8 september 1943) and his trasportation to Berlin, Hitler had already decided what to do with Italy, almost annexed Trentino and named Rudolf Rahn as german plenipotentiary for Italy. More, he was ready in the case of some Mussolini’s refusal: he had already “summoned” in Berlin other fascist gerarcas who were ready to play the puppet role (see the milestone Lutz Klinkhammer’s book –by the way he’s not marxist – “L’occupazione tedesca in Italia. 1943-1945” – The german occupation in Italy- I think published only in italian and german).

5) Finally I can’t support the “our boys rethoric” that can be breathed here. It’s so many times denied by history that I don’t waste time to speak against. Why those milions of men sent to war as cannon fodder originated always in a great majority from popular classes while ruling classes decide the war course (pls see the social composition of US army in Irak as last exemple of that)?

Sorry for my verbosity and I know my english is really intricate and often not gramtically correct. I apologize in advance for that and I hope, ppl can understand my assertions

 

[McNaughton]

IMO, there is no single solution found in an ideology, as each can abuse everything just as well as the other. They just do it differently. What is more important than saying 'Communism is the way', or 'Capitalism is the way' (as history has proven, both are self-destructive if left on their own), we have to say 'what can we do to make Capitalism/Communisim the way', since neither have a monopoly on good policies.

People want stuff, they are willing to kill their chances of having stuff in the future (shopping at Wal Mart, which eventually kills their Manufacturing job, but at least they could get twice as much as they could before, until they are unemployed...). Rather than saying we need a new ideology, we need to change our outlook at what is really important in life. We have achieved material success to the point where we have everything we need, and pretty much everything we want. We then have to decide if this actually brings us happiness, and if this level of 'happiness' is sustainable.

 

[Antiochus V]

Depaz, I was intrigued by your suggestion that something must replace the idea of liberalism and capitalism. Given that levels of environmental protection in the west (the US and Europe), seem to be far higher than those in command economies, (e.g. China or in the latter days of the USSR). It seems reasonable to suggest that Capitalism combined with a liberal government offers a good compromise.

I am not sure what you offer as a replacement.

I also cannot help suspecting that no matter how unpalatable we might find Mr Ratzingers views he could be on to something from a disease prevention point of view.

I am well aware of what you are implying by an 'internationalist' point of view, and equally well aware that it leads to efficient and effective organisations like the league of nations, the UN and now the EU. At least local governments sometimes listen to and reflect their population.

 

[JRaup]

I'd purposely stayed out of this previously. However, this whole discussion has gone too far afield to remain with in the CORE subforum. There is little if anything to do with CORE in here, and as such is purely OT. I'm going to ask a Moderator to move this to the OT forum, as it's just clutering up the CORE forum, and y'all can argue Marxist determinism vs Capitalist evolution to your hearts content.

If there was some direct correlation to what goes on in CORE, other than a vague reference, I'd argue more. But as this is more of a trolling for an argument, to OT it will go.

 

[Darth Tracid]

good job.