hi, its my idea about how make it most immersive, but I dont know if the game is too open to modders can implement all this, I am starting
modding and I really dont know how to do the majority of things here, my post is more to inspire someone that think this ideias intersting.
BETTER FORTS, ZOC, SIEGE AND SACK SYSTEM
a more immersive "zone of control": separate walls and forts, being each one more cheap but more limited, this allow you to build more of
they(they have different focus), and walls as it only grow up or to outside, it dont consumes building slots, you can build more than before but
few levels of wall are easy to beat and to build lots of walls levels in many territories will be expensive and take very long time, it can be bad
cost-benefit(if your strategy is not very defensive), you will need to manage it wise, but the objective is to:
allow to use "zone of control" in the realist way: only territories with walls or forts have the zone of control, only this territories force
foreigners(without a open border agreement) to only move back to his previous territory or start a siege.
ZONE OF CONTROL ONLY START IN THE TERRITORY WITH FORT/WALLS.
now walls dont consumes building slots, if you want to create a realistic control zone in 3 adjacent lands you can, or even bigger like the romans
maked in britain or even something much bigger like the chinese great wall, but by the costs you probably will choose to build no more than
2 or 3 connected walls in strategic places:
because walls make your armies much better WHEN you have they there, walls allow you to beat larger armies assaulting you while the walls are
not much damaged, but a walls territory without defenders can fall in weeks to a assault enemy, because without units nobody in your territory
will can benefit from the high bonus walls give to defenders(specially archers), and extremely penalty to assaulters(specially mounted),
this bonus and penalty go down how more walls become damage by siege weapons(or well the city can surrender by starving if the siege go too long).
you will want to build forts exactly in territories you expect to be attacked,because it not only block the passage of foreigners and require they to
siege you if they want raid/sack as walls do, but more than that forts are the far better place to maintain garrisoned units(less garrisoned units
maintenance and more discipline by each fort level), and forts lower the territory unrest.
remember that the zone of control become lower and if the invaders move to a territory you have with only walls, they still cant move to other of your
territories before they assault this walls territory, this mean you dont need worry about the enemy moving from your walls territory to another.
see this example:
your border: sea-walls-walls-fort-impassable-impassable-walls-walls-fort-impassable-lake
if enemy go to your first wall(next to sea), you can receive a alert and move fast some units garrisoned in your fort to there, if the enemy moved 10k army
there, you know you dont need move more than 3k or 4k there to win if they assault with your walls in good conditions, and if you have some walls levels,
they will need long time unless they have many siege weapons, then you can still let part of your army inside the fort taking advantage of the fort lower
maintenance to your units and experiency and discipline your garrisoned units receive(maybe the discipline bonus can start to slowly decay when they go
out the fort), if you start to think they will can have supplies to siege until really damage your walls then you can choose other tactics like move your entire
garrisoned fort army there and attack the besiegers, or just find a way to attack their supply lines if you can and then you know they will starve...
-----THE SIEGE WEAPONS:------------------------------------------------------------------
-battering ram(only will count as one in a assault, as fortifications normally have only one big and more fragile gate)
cheap, cant fight in a battle(just damage fort/walls)
-catapult(costly, can damage fort/walls, can fight battle, good against slowly heavy infantry and ships, very bad against mounted units).
about catapults: greek and indian(Emperor Ajatshatru 500 BC) traditions and the Diadochi(Successors included Egypt and Bactria) have access to
catapults and gain bonus. italian tradition can research the Scorpium Ballistae, replace the catapults.
Levantine-Arabian need more tech to obtain.
Barbarian tradition need alot techs, but like everyone they can pay to expensive italian/greek(maybe in dacia) mercenaries and disband it after the assault.
-----THE FORTS AND WALLS:-----------------------------------------------------------------
walls only grow up or to outside, his levels doesnt count as buildings in the slot numbers limit, it make walls ideal to protect places where you have
or want to have a lot of buildings like big cities or strategic chokepoints that you dont want to convert in cities(maybe mountains or deserts) but that
you want to control at any cost, because with time you can create many levels of walls and then it become more powerful to defense than a fort BUT
different than forts walls need resources and take a long time to build and walls will need an army or it can fall easy to attackers because the great
point of a wall is that it give extreme bonus to defenders, then you need defenders, and the better place to put defenders is in a fort exactly where you
think you will suffer more attacks because forts are fast to build(you will prefer to have a fort in your border at moment you are garrisoning units there
and build a wall(thats slowly to build until obtain a good level). Forts give considerable lower maintenance and Experience decay and high bonuses to defenders.
--------COMPARE FORTS AND WALLS:-----------------------------------------------------------
-the two impose control zone in his territory(a invader only can move back or siege).
-the two prevent sack/raid in his territory(not around(new control zone)).
-when a fort or walls level is destroyed, it cant me repaired, only the percentage damage in the current level can be repaired.
-when a fort or walls level is destroyed(imagine it like losing a tower, etc), the defending armies bonus decay to current level.
ASSAULTING FORTS OR WALLS:
FORTS or WALLS make terrain hard as a umpassable mountain, non-cumulative by levels, but still cumulative with other terrain modifiers):
Terrain modifiers and Discipline affected by Terrain modifiers:
The Fort/Walls Terrain modifiers will stay as "undamaged" until the last level(or the unique) start to be damaged.
Fort/Walls Last level: Terrain modifiers: Defenders:
undamaged(100%) -10 +30% Discipline
damaged(80%) -8 +10% Discipline
fractured(60%) -6 +5% Discipline
gapped(40%) -4 -5% Discipline
broken(20%) -2 -10% Discipline
ruined(0%) 0 -30% Discipline
Is near impossible to win an assault against armies inside a "undamaged" fort/walls, but when the last survivor level start to fall,
the moral of defenders fall with it and "broken" or "reined" last level fort/walls become open to be attacked even by mounted armies.
Unit effectiveness in ASSAULT: (as the other atributes above, its non-cumulative by walls levels and remain as "undamaged" until
the last survivor fort/walls level become damaged).
WALLS undamaged(100%) damaged(80%) fractured(60%) gapped(40%) broken(20%) ruined(0%)
DEFENDERS:
Archers: 300% 200% 150% 100% 50% 0%
(if in game, skirmishers and slingers can take bonus too) (more wall destruction means archers can no longer take advantage
of the best battle positions and protections(like towers))
ASSAULTERS:
Mounted: -300% -200% -150% -100% -50% 0%
(yes, how many broken the wall more mounted units have space and can be allow to participate in attack).
---------WALLS:------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-walls dont consume buildings slot(you can really make walls that take years to broke, BUT the you still can lose the siege by starving).
-two kind of walls:
1)Palisade walls(fast to build/repair/destroy) require wood in province
Palisade % damaged by a single siege weapon by week:
battering ram(ONE per assault): -20% by week
catapult
each one assaulting): -30% by week
EXAMPLE: 1 battering rams sieging a Palisade will destroy a level in five weeks, with 1 catapult too the level will fall in just 2 weeks.
(I think 1 month could be a good amount of time to build a Palisade walls level and having the possibility to build it in 1 week if you
order a 3k army to do exclusively it.
Is historic that armies build palisade around their camps before some battles they do that even in enemy territory.
Romans not only build advanced forts but they build palisades to protect themselves when they are besieging, like Cesar in gaul, can be interesting
allowing attackers to build palisades when sieging, with attacker required to have surplus of wood in capital, then the supply trains have it.
2)Stone walls(slow to build/repair/destroy) require stone in province
Stone walls % damaged by a single siege weapon by week:
battering ram(ONE per assault): -2% by week
catapult(each one assaulting): -4% by week
EXAMPLE: 1 battering ram more 2 catapults sieging a Stone walls will damage it 10% by week, and destroy a level in two months and half.
(I think 1 year could be a good amount of time to build a Stone walls level and having the possibility to build it in 4 months if you put 15 slaves to
work exclusively on building it).
---------FORTS:------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fort levels Require Details:
1,2(named: Stockade) (faster than stone walls to build/repair/destroy)
3,4,5(named: Fortress) (STONE) (durable as stone walls)
6(named: Citadel) (STONE, IRON, a noble in the territory and high techs)
-armies bonus in the fort territory:
-lower the territory unrest
-5% maintenance(for each fort level)
-0.25% Experience decay(for each fort level)
+5% Land armies discipline defending a assault(for each fort level)
FORT DEFENDING ASSAULT:
walls % damaged by a single siege weapon by week:
Fort level battering ram catapult
1(wood) -20% -30%
2(wood) -20% -30%
3(stone) -2% -4%
4(stone) -2% -4%
5(stone) -2% -4%
Citadel(stone) -1% -2%
this show the resistance of forts are equal the resource(wood or stone) of the walls, but the last level fort: Citadel, have superior tech.
(when a fort level is destroyed(imagine it like losing a tower, etc), the defending armies bonus decay to current level.
-----IF TERRITORY HAVE THE WALLS AND FORT:---------------------------------------------
-if a territory have the two(walls + fort) and suffer a siege, first will be the levels of the walls vs siege weapons and then secondly the fort levels.
-if a assault happens: if exist walls will be applied walls rules like above, if was was destroyed will start to apply fort rules, and when the last survivor fort level suffer
damage will be applied normally, like above, the changes like Terrain modifiers and Discipline.
-----SACK SYSTEM:----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do you have to wait until the peace treaty to sack a city?
allow raid without being at war (like ck2), just being considered hostile for the country you’re raiding.
allow sacks when you are in the territory even in peace maybe with a button like the desecrate holy site one, you take aggressive expansion and diplomatic reputation.
I READ IT IN A FORUM AND I THINK INTERESTING:
"In the M&T mod for EU4 after you occupy a territory, you steal some of the wealth that was accumulated there, and then you slowly cart that money home.
If you raid too many territories in too short an amount of time, your armies will become temporarily overburdened with loot and it will negatively affect their combat ability.
What's more, at the beginning of the war you get a choice as to your looting stance, if you want to loot a lot (more morale and less war exhaustion, but less discipline and
worse siege performance) or less (more discipline). Tribal nations, or one with a more martially oriented leader can get access to more intense raiding choice..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this system appears better than the current in game?
thanks for those who read this!
modding and I really dont know how to do the majority of things here, my post is more to inspire someone that think this ideias intersting.
BETTER FORTS, ZOC, SIEGE AND SACK SYSTEM
a more immersive "zone of control": separate walls and forts, being each one more cheap but more limited, this allow you to build more of
they(they have different focus), and walls as it only grow up or to outside, it dont consumes building slots, you can build more than before but
few levels of wall are easy to beat and to build lots of walls levels in many territories will be expensive and take very long time, it can be bad
cost-benefit(if your strategy is not very defensive), you will need to manage it wise, but the objective is to:
allow to use "zone of control" in the realist way: only territories with walls or forts have the zone of control, only this territories force
foreigners(without a open border agreement) to only move back to his previous territory or start a siege.
ZONE OF CONTROL ONLY START IN THE TERRITORY WITH FORT/WALLS.
now walls dont consumes building slots, if you want to create a realistic control zone in 3 adjacent lands you can, or even bigger like the romans
maked in britain or even something much bigger like the chinese great wall, but by the costs you probably will choose to build no more than
2 or 3 connected walls in strategic places:
because walls make your armies much better WHEN you have they there, walls allow you to beat larger armies assaulting you while the walls are
not much damaged, but a walls territory without defenders can fall in weeks to a assault enemy, because without units nobody in your territory
will can benefit from the high bonus walls give to defenders(specially archers), and extremely penalty to assaulters(specially mounted),
this bonus and penalty go down how more walls become damage by siege weapons(or well the city can surrender by starving if the siege go too long).
you will want to build forts exactly in territories you expect to be attacked,because it not only block the passage of foreigners and require they to
siege you if they want raid/sack as walls do, but more than that forts are the far better place to maintain garrisoned units(less garrisoned units
maintenance and more discipline by each fort level), and forts lower the territory unrest.
remember that the zone of control become lower and if the invaders move to a territory you have with only walls, they still cant move to other of your
territories before they assault this walls territory, this mean you dont need worry about the enemy moving from your walls territory to another.
see this example:
your border: sea-walls-walls-fort-impassable-impassable-walls-walls-fort-impassable-lake
if enemy go to your first wall(next to sea), you can receive a alert and move fast some units garrisoned in your fort to there, if the enemy moved 10k army
there, you know you dont need move more than 3k or 4k there to win if they assault with your walls in good conditions, and if you have some walls levels,
they will need long time unless they have many siege weapons, then you can still let part of your army inside the fort taking advantage of the fort lower
maintenance to your units and experiency and discipline your garrisoned units receive(maybe the discipline bonus can start to slowly decay when they go
out the fort), if you start to think they will can have supplies to siege until really damage your walls then you can choose other tactics like move your entire
garrisoned fort army there and attack the besiegers, or just find a way to attack their supply lines if you can and then you know they will starve...
-----THE SIEGE WEAPONS:------------------------------------------------------------------
-battering ram(only will count as one in a assault, as fortifications normally have only one big and more fragile gate)
cheap, cant fight in a battle(just damage fort/walls)
-catapult(costly, can damage fort/walls, can fight battle, good against slowly heavy infantry and ships, very bad against mounted units).
about catapults: greek and indian(Emperor Ajatshatru 500 BC) traditions and the Diadochi(Successors included Egypt and Bactria) have access to
catapults and gain bonus. italian tradition can research the Scorpium Ballistae, replace the catapults.
Levantine-Arabian need more tech to obtain.
Barbarian tradition need alot techs, but like everyone they can pay to expensive italian/greek(maybe in dacia) mercenaries and disband it after the assault.
-----THE FORTS AND WALLS:-----------------------------------------------------------------
walls only grow up or to outside, his levels doesnt count as buildings in the slot numbers limit, it make walls ideal to protect places where you have
or want to have a lot of buildings like big cities or strategic chokepoints that you dont want to convert in cities(maybe mountains or deserts) but that
you want to control at any cost, because with time you can create many levels of walls and then it become more powerful to defense than a fort BUT
different than forts walls need resources and take a long time to build and walls will need an army or it can fall easy to attackers because the great
point of a wall is that it give extreme bonus to defenders, then you need defenders, and the better place to put defenders is in a fort exactly where you
think you will suffer more attacks because forts are fast to build(you will prefer to have a fort in your border at moment you are garrisoning units there
and build a wall(thats slowly to build until obtain a good level). Forts give considerable lower maintenance and Experience decay and high bonuses to defenders.
--------COMPARE FORTS AND WALLS:-----------------------------------------------------------
-the two impose control zone in his territory(a invader only can move back or siege).
-the two prevent sack/raid in his territory(not around(new control zone)).
-when a fort or walls level is destroyed, it cant me repaired, only the percentage damage in the current level can be repaired.
-when a fort or walls level is destroyed(imagine it like losing a tower, etc), the defending armies bonus decay to current level.
ASSAULTING FORTS OR WALLS:
FORTS or WALLS make terrain hard as a umpassable mountain, non-cumulative by levels, but still cumulative with other terrain modifiers):
Terrain modifiers and Discipline affected by Terrain modifiers:
The Fort/Walls Terrain modifiers will stay as "undamaged" until the last level(or the unique) start to be damaged.
Fort/Walls Last level: Terrain modifiers: Defenders:
undamaged(100%) -10 +30% Discipline
damaged(80%) -8 +10% Discipline
fractured(60%) -6 +5% Discipline
gapped(40%) -4 -5% Discipline
broken(20%) -2 -10% Discipline
ruined(0%) 0 -30% Discipline
Is near impossible to win an assault against armies inside a "undamaged" fort/walls, but when the last survivor level start to fall,
the moral of defenders fall with it and "broken" or "reined" last level fort/walls become open to be attacked even by mounted armies.
Unit effectiveness in ASSAULT: (as the other atributes above, its non-cumulative by walls levels and remain as "undamaged" until
the last survivor fort/walls level become damaged).
WALLS undamaged(100%) damaged(80%) fractured(60%) gapped(40%) broken(20%) ruined(0%)
DEFENDERS:
Archers: 300% 200% 150% 100% 50% 0%
(if in game, skirmishers and slingers can take bonus too) (more wall destruction means archers can no longer take advantage
of the best battle positions and protections(like towers))
ASSAULTERS:
Mounted: -300% -200% -150% -100% -50% 0%
(yes, how many broken the wall more mounted units have space and can be allow to participate in attack).
---------WALLS:------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-walls dont consume buildings slot(you can really make walls that take years to broke, BUT the you still can lose the siege by starving).
-two kind of walls:
1)Palisade walls(fast to build/repair/destroy) require wood in province
Palisade % damaged by a single siege weapon by week:
battering ram(ONE per assault): -20% by week
catapult
each one assaulting): -30% by weekEXAMPLE: 1 battering rams sieging a Palisade will destroy a level in five weeks, with 1 catapult too the level will fall in just 2 weeks.
(I think 1 month could be a good amount of time to build a Palisade walls level and having the possibility to build it in 1 week if you
order a 3k army to do exclusively it.
Is historic that armies build palisade around their camps before some battles they do that even in enemy territory.
Romans not only build advanced forts but they build palisades to protect themselves when they are besieging, like Cesar in gaul, can be interesting
allowing attackers to build palisades when sieging, with attacker required to have surplus of wood in capital, then the supply trains have it.
2)Stone walls(slow to build/repair/destroy) require stone in province
Stone walls % damaged by a single siege weapon by week:
battering ram(ONE per assault): -2% by week
catapult(each one assaulting): -4% by week
EXAMPLE: 1 battering ram more 2 catapults sieging a Stone walls will damage it 10% by week, and destroy a level in two months and half.
(I think 1 year could be a good amount of time to build a Stone walls level and having the possibility to build it in 4 months if you put 15 slaves to
work exclusively on building it).
---------FORTS:------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fort levels Require Details:
1,2(named: Stockade) (faster than stone walls to build/repair/destroy)
3,4,5(named: Fortress) (STONE) (durable as stone walls)
6(named: Citadel) (STONE, IRON, a noble in the territory and high techs)
-armies bonus in the fort territory:
-lower the territory unrest
-5% maintenance(for each fort level)
-0.25% Experience decay(for each fort level)
+5% Land armies discipline defending a assault(for each fort level)
FORT DEFENDING ASSAULT:
walls % damaged by a single siege weapon by week:
Fort level battering ram catapult
1(wood) -20% -30%
2(wood) -20% -30%
3(stone) -2% -4%
4(stone) -2% -4%
5(stone) -2% -4%
Citadel(stone) -1% -2%
this show the resistance of forts are equal the resource(wood or stone) of the walls, but the last level fort: Citadel, have superior tech.
(when a fort level is destroyed(imagine it like losing a tower, etc), the defending armies bonus decay to current level.
-----IF TERRITORY HAVE THE WALLS AND FORT:---------------------------------------------
-if a territory have the two(walls + fort) and suffer a siege, first will be the levels of the walls vs siege weapons and then secondly the fort levels.
-if a assault happens: if exist walls will be applied walls rules like above, if was was destroyed will start to apply fort rules, and when the last survivor fort level suffer
damage will be applied normally, like above, the changes like Terrain modifiers and Discipline.
-----SACK SYSTEM:----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do you have to wait until the peace treaty to sack a city?
allow raid without being at war (like ck2), just being considered hostile for the country you’re raiding.
allow sacks when you are in the territory even in peace maybe with a button like the desecrate holy site one, you take aggressive expansion and diplomatic reputation.
I READ IT IN A FORUM AND I THINK INTERESTING:
"In the M&T mod for EU4 after you occupy a territory, you steal some of the wealth that was accumulated there, and then you slowly cart that money home.
If you raid too many territories in too short an amount of time, your armies will become temporarily overburdened with loot and it will negatively affect their combat ability.
What's more, at the beginning of the war you get a choice as to your looting stance, if you want to loot a lot (more morale and less war exhaustion, but less discipline and
worse siege performance) or less (more discipline). Tribal nations, or one with a more martially oriented leader can get access to more intense raiding choice..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this system appears better than the current in game?
thanks for those who read this!
Last edited: