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mrt1212

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Why not? Does it break the immersion too much?

No, it seems like a lot of work for a benefit you could accrue simply by starting somewhere else. Like if my heart is really set on utilizing the benefits of those 3 religions, the path of least resistance is starting where that's your religion from the get-go.

Now if you want to pitch me a playthrough where the objective is all about making Finland an Eastern religion...I am all ears.
 

majdavlk

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No, it seems like a lot of work for a benefit you could accrue simply by starting somewhere else. Like if my heart is really set on utilizing the benefits of those 3 religions, the path of least resistance is starting where that's your religion from the get-go.

Now if you want to pitch me a playthrough where the objective is all about making Finland an Eastern religion...I am all ears.

Ah okay, i always found very easy to do.
 

mrt1212

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Ah okay, i always found very easy to do.

Despite the hours I've logged playing this game, there are still a lot of things I haven't done because once I settle into a specific start situation and feel like I have some understanding of how to succeed, I really like to milk it from 769 to 1453. Like, I still haven't played a full Muslim game or started in India.

You're like Michael Phelps and I'm a mere guppy ;)
 

Urloc the Great

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Wonder Women:
Base: Doesn't matter
Nature: Doesn't matter
Doctrines: Enatic Clans, Ancestor Veneration
Leadership: Temporal
Why?: Give your vassals all the Veneration Bloodlines, then integrate them into your dynasty to stack Personal Combat Skill. Make your heir a Shieldmaiden to further increase her Personal Combat Skill. It's time to stack all the possible modifiers!

Enatic Equestranauts:
Base: Nomadic Government, Tengri
Nature: Unyielding
Doctrines: Enatic Clans, Eternal Rider (According to the Wiki, it can stack with Unyielding, unlike Unrelenting)
Leadership: Doesn't matter
Why?: Your riders will be immortal while fighting on your turf. As long as you keep razing, your religion will be in every province you own. Bonus Points if you manage to change your Culture while keeping the Nomadic Government.
 
Last edited:

DPS

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Never really understood the appeal of Eldership when Agnatic Open (via Agnatic Clans or Islam) is a thing or you can roll with the combo of Primo/Ultimo + Heir Desgination (via Meritocracy or Buddhism/Jainism/Taoism). Why mess around with the opinions of fickle courtiers when you have guaranteed succession that you can change at a button press?

To me, the appeal of Eldership over Ultimo/Primo + Heir Designation is that usually, upon reforming a pagan faith, you're still a long way from being able to go Primo without doing gamey/exploity stuff (which I don't like to do). Why waste a slot on Heir Designation if you might have to wait a couple centuries to institute a succession law that lets it be usable?

Plus, as someone pointed out, with Eldership you aren't just limit to your children like with Primo + Heir Designation; any dynasty member is eligible (unless disqualified by being a temple holder or the like).
 

Casko

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I do find the African Builders build quite interesting I must say, and will have to try it out sooner rather than later.

That said I must ask, are there any other particular combos with Suomenusko? or Romuva, as those are my two favorite pagan religions to play as if I don't go Christian.
 

MateuszS

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Wonder Women:
Base: Doesn't matter
Nature: Doesn't matter
Doctrines: Enatic Clans, Ancestor Veneration
Leadership: Temporal

That's my first reformation in HF :D

Long time ago someone proposed hilarious yet probably working template for Zunists (but I suppose, any religion surrounded by non-pagans could work):
- Cosmopolitan
- Bloodthirsty Gods (for heretics and heathens)
- Religious Tax (for non-pagans)
- any leadership (but you may want GHWs, though)
Forget about conversion - pure exploit and intermarrying.

Romuva:
- Dogmatic
- Defenders of Dievas
- Divine Marriage
- Temporal
You won't get pagan saints, but keep Eldership and with DM you can forge and stack bloodlines. Temporal with Dogmatic is mostly for some funny descriptions in events.
 
Last edited:

Spaninq

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(According to the Wiki, it can stack with Unyielding, unlike Unrelenting)
You missed the bit on the wiki that's rather clear: 'Pagan religions retain some features when reformed, regardless of the features chosen during reformation. However, a religion can only have one "unit modifier", so offensive pagans will lose levy size and other bonuses if they select a reformation feature that adds a competing "unit modifier".'

Unyielding provides a modifier and Eternal Rider provides a modifier, so one of them *will* be lost when the religion is formed.

Here's a pagan religion idea to make up for it.
Awesome Heirs:
Base: Doesn't Matter, although Hellenics and Zunists get an extra reformation belief, and it works pretty well for Bön.
Nature: Doesn't Matter
Doctrines: Astrology, Meritocracy. Hellenics get Astrology for free, and can pick Civilized instead of Meritocracy, but Stability+Civilized does not grant Meliorism synergy, sadly. Zunists get the useful part of Astrology for free (who needs an astrology sign?), so they get one free pick here. Bön can pick Harmonious instead of Meritocracy.
Leadership: Slightly Matters (Careful about Temporal if Bön and Harmonious, since the religious head title is stuck to Agnatic succession. Also, Autonomous is actually useful here for Hellenics and Bön)
Why?: Astrology allows use of the Hermetics for good educations for your heirs via Make Horoscope. You can then choose the best heir from a crop of good education heirs with Meritocracy.

Bön do this fantastically, since their female leaders can have up to 3 male consorts and Harmonious Doctrine gives both Stability and Equality, although it reduces the usefulness of Temporal Nature (since the Head of Church is locked at Agnatic). Luckily, Autonomous Leadership provides them +2 Learning (great for Hermetics!), although it disallows Great Holy Wars. Bön also get access to gurus, who are excellent doctors and apprentices, and the feature of priests being unable to inherit. One could even be tempted into going Peaceful Nature with Autonomous Leadership (since you can't GHW with either choice and Tibeto-Burman culture allows raiding), so you can hold extra temples (Monastic Feudalism is lovely for Tibeto-Burman Böns) to give out to your sons. This is ultimately a poor decision, since the really bad part of Peaceful Nature is being unable to take the Hunting Focus. Proselytizing Nature is actually more important for Bön since Old Bön provinces are harder to convert (my memory says Buddhist provinces are also hard to convert, but the wiki doesn't mention it anywhere, so my memory might be wrong).

What are good picks for the "free" doctrine for Hellenics? Stability should only be picked with Meritocracy, not Civilized. Equality gives a slightly worse version of Bön, since Hellenics don't allow concubines. Monasticism is an interesting choice, since you can now order most of your unworthy children to take the vows (although you can revoke temples and grant them to your children, which disinherits them). You can also ascend to Godhood with Divine Marriage, Temporal Leadership and Dogmatic Nature. Hellenics also get +2 Learning from Autonomous Leadership, so it's not a bad choice for them. Sea-Bound gives you cheap ships to raid with (yes, Reformed Hellenics are allowed to raid, despite Unreformed Hellenics being unable to raid). Bloodthirsty Gods lets you sacrifice courtiers to read their entrails, and a non-Peaceful nature also gives you access to the Flower Wars CB.

What about Zunists? Autonomous Leadership is worse for Zunists, so it shouldn't be picked. Zunists can ascend to Godhood with Dawnbreakers (also gives Polygamy, which allows you to marry 4 of your sisters, who should have excellent educations), Temporal Leadership, and Dogmatic Nature. Stability gives you better Meliorism, which shouldn't be overlooked. You can also raid as Reformed Zun (can't as unreformed Zun), but unless you manage to control a significant coastline (your Holy Sites are mostly inland and really widespread), Sea-Bound won't be that useful for you. Bloodthirsty Gods with a non-Peaceful nature gives you access to the Flower Wars CB.

Other choices are possible for the free doctrine for Hellenics and Zunists, but I've said quite a bit as is.
 

MateuszS

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Nature: Doesn't Matter
Doctrines: Astrology, Meritocracy. Hellenics get Astrology for free, and can pick Civilized instead of Meritocracy, but Stability+Civilized does not grant Meliorism synergy, sadly.

IIRC, Hellenics with Peaceful doesn't allow to create their own Warrior Lodge. Stability doesn't have synergy with Hellenic Astrology, too. In that case, forget about useful synergies.

Combo Peaceful + Astrology + Stability might work for the most of pagans. Slavs and Romuva get +2 to diplomacy in case of Autonomus, while Hierocratic gives excommunications. Peaceful gives +15 to relations with all vassals (including heathens). Stability - no short reign penalty (another +16-18 to relations at the start of the reign). With that, you might not need hereditiary government to get awesome heirs as your candidate will always win.
 
Last edited:

Urloc the Great

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You missed the bit on the wiki that's rather clear: 'Pagan religions retain some features when reformed, regardless of the features chosen during reformation. However, a religion can only have one "unit modifier", so offensive pagans will lose levy size and other bonuses if they select a reformation feature that adds a competing "unit modifier".'

Unyielding provides a modifier and Eternal Rider provides a modifier, so one of them *will* be lost when the religion is formed.

Powerful%20Tengri%20Modifiers.jpg

You can't take the regular Unrelenting and Unyielding together, but with the special Tengri Doctrine we have an exception.

As you can see in the picture, I have both the Eternal Riders Doctrine and the Unyielding Nature.
 

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Rinholm

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It might not be the funnest reformation but my personal favorite is germanic/ proselytizing/ stability/ agnatic clans/ temporal. My goal most games is to create a smooth running empire made up of a single religion and a single culture. I also like clean internal/ and external borders with everyone only controling the territory I give them so I dont want my vassals waging wars on their own and usually have some revoke penalty from adjusting a border. The only stats Im really concerned about are my ruler and my heirs and prefer a content vassal to an ambitious genius one. Im also not overly concerned with stacking bloodlines since I find I can stack quite a few naturally with just the ambition one, events ones, and going on the journey every 100 years, and if I want to grab a few historics I do it early game before reformation.

Proselytizing quickly converts conquered provinces to your religion which is nice and is the only useful choice imo, unyielding removes the levy bonus from being germanic, peaceful removes holy wars, warmongering makes vassals fight more wars on there own and punishes peace time, dogmatic is pointless since moral authority is easy to max, and cosmo is good for stacking bloodlines but not for creating a single religion/ single culture empire which is my goal.

Stability makes transitions smoother early game before my magesty tech gets up there and also allows me to add stat points to my ruler or my heir. Agnatic clans allows instant access to a great succession type which works especially well since I keep all members of my dynasty other then my ruler unlanded. I find its pretty rare to have a generation wihout a genius once my breeding program gets rocking and since I can pick between any son or grandson and I make every marriage/ concubinage I usually end up with a super ruler. Another benefit from agnatic clans is that it prevents female inheritance which really helps with internal bordergore and means I only need to kill half a family if I want to steal a relic. The only downside is it does prevent matri marriage so if you want to stack bloodlines you have to do it before reformation.

Temporal is just great it gives me the ability to call my own crusades, gives a great relic, gives a piety boost for being the head of the religion, and also gives two moral authority boosts to the religion based off my rulers piety and diplomacy.

So again while it might not be the funnest reformation it is my personal favorite since it helps me achieve a smooth running single religion/ culture empire with clean borders and usually a long string of super rulers to lord over it.
 

Spaninq

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Powerful%20Tengri%20Modifiers.jpg

You can't take the regular Unrelenting and Unyielding together, but with the special Tengri Doctrine we have an exception.

As you can see in the picture, I have both the Eternal Riders Doctrine and the Unyielding Nature.
Apologies, I was mistaken. Still... Do you lose out on the levy size modifier (should be +20% with Unyielding, but it's not in either list of modifiers)?

IIRC, Hellenics with Peaceful doesn't allow to create their own Warrior Lodge. Stability doesn't have synergy with Hellenic Astrology, too. In that case, forget about useful synergies.

Combo Peaceful + Astrology + Stability might work for the most of pagans. Slavs and Romuva get +2 to diplomacy in case of Autonomus, while Hierocratic gives excommunications. Peaceful gives +15 to relations with all vassals (including heathens). Stability - no short reign penalty (another +16-18 to relations at the start of the reign). With that, you might not need hereditiary government to get awesome heirs as your candidate will always win.
As I noted in my post, Peaceful removes the ability to go Hunting Focus, which is *really* painful. Especially since you want to occasionally go with your faith's warrior lodge to try to get another legendary bloodline, and you're uncertain about your health (hunting focus itself grants one health and your almost guaranteed dog gives at least 1 more health)..
 

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Bön do this fantastically, since their female leaders can have up to 3 male consorts and Harmonious Doctrine gives both Stability and Equality, although it reduces the usefulness of Temporal Nature (since the Head of Church is locked at Agnatic).
Are you sure? I'm sure I had a female Dalai Lama before under Temporal.
 

doktarr

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My war time religion :
aztek - unyielding, invaders, haruscripcy, temporal

Religion for my spymaster :
suemenusko - peaceful, special doctrine, astrology, autonomous

For vassals that hold Muslim land :
Zun - Peaceful,Astrology , religious tax, Autonomous

If i want to mess up with someones succession :
Germanic - warlike, agnatic clans, stability, temporal

My easy feudal to nomad conversion religion :
Tengri - warlike, enatic clans, stability, temporal

My diplomats religion :
Romuva : peaceful, astrology, haruscripcy, autonomous

My backup diplomats religion if the trait from astrology is bad :
Slavic : peaceful, equality, syncreticism, temporal

Religion for most of my vassals, stewards, Marshalls and commanders :
African - peaceful, astrology, stability, autonomous

My court chaplains religion :
Bon - peaceful, astrology, monasticism, autonomous

Hellenic : equality, temporal (hellenic isn't best at anything so i usualy reform it only to get the scepter)

If there are any religion specific artifacts i usualy make and exception with the councilors/vassals religion.
Is this really minmaxing, though? It seems like a huge effort to go side-questing around to reform every religion this way. You could to a lot of other things instead of that. Seems a lot more like a weird achievement run than true minmaxing.

Also just picking high-stat courtiers for your councillors seems much more reliable than trying to set up those specific marshalls/chaplains/spymaster/diplomat.

I guess I could see the logic of setting up one religion for the bulk of your vassals and another for your dynasty, although this does mean you eat the religious conflict penalty.

My easy feudal to nomad conversion religion :
Tengri - warlike, enatic clans, stability, temporal
How does this work? Does this make it easier to press claims/inherit clans due to the conflict between enatic and nomad succession?
 

majdavlk

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Zunists get the useful part of Astrology for free (who needs an astrology sign?).

But... But... The signs and the synergies are the useful part of it... What do you consider to be the important part?

You missed the bit on the wiki that's rather clear: 'Pagan religions retain some features when reformed, regardless of the features chosen during reformation. However, a religion can only have one "unit modifier", so offensive pagans will lose levy size and other bonuses if they select a reformation feature that adds a competing "unit modifier".'

Unyielding provides a modifier and Eternal Rider provides a modifier, so one of them *will* be lost when the religion is formed.

Invaders and eternal riders actually Stack with unyielding, i speak from experience. The wiki is probably wrong on this.

Proselytizing Nature is actually more important for Bön since Old Bön provinces are harder to convert

I find proselytizing nature weak, because province conversion can be easly done using secret religious society
 
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