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unmerged(86678)

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Hey guys. Long time lurker, first time poster. Please be supportive, I'm a bit nervous about coming forward like this!

Now, I love the EU series more than my family, but I think we can all see by now that it has flaws. The game is clearly biased in favor of a few large European countries, and pretty much everyone else has no chance of doing well. Just today, I tried to play EU2 as the Aztecs (my personal favorite civ!), and got horribly mutilated once Spain showed up. I played near-perfectly, but had no chance! The game needs rebalancing.

I have a few suggestions for improving the game. Please try to keep an open mind: these ideas would change the game somewhat, but without change, it would just stagnate!

1) More historical flexibility
What if history went down a different path? What if something other than technology became the driving force of humanity's ascent? This idea would allow for more diversity in the way civilization develops between the time period given. Imagine if magic suddenly developed in Africa in 1400! The world would certainly be different! And of course, magic has never been definitively disproven. Who knows what might have happened? Imagine hiring alchemists to transmute your country's resources into gold! Or developing mages instead of artillery! And naturally, chances like these would balance the game by allowing the weaker nations a possibility to develop serious power. The historical options are limited only to Paradox's imagination!

2) Elite units
Right now, military options between countries are kinda bland. Other than land tech level and general selection, little differentiates opposing armies. This idea would change that! Every country to ever exist has had a rich mythology of legendary warriors, from Norse berserkers to the Japanese ninja. Why not be able to field them and wield these magnificent fighters against your foes? Imagine a force of Austrian werewolves, or a Romanian vampire brigade! The Greeks could get small groups of elite Spartan warriors, as seen in the (inaccurate) Hollywood movie "300."

These forces would only be available to struggling countries, since a nation in trouble will cling to its myths and legends. This will be a major balancing force, allowing disadvantaged parties access to better troops for a time, until they can work their way up. I think this idea would not only improve game balance, but would also add to the flavor of playing a country for more fun all around.

3) The Special Meter
This idea may be controversial to some people here. The basic idea is that, when a nation is in dire straits, the belief and will of its people can make a miracle happen. These would be regulated by a meter, called the "special meter." If you've played the GBA/DS Advance Wars games, think of it like the CO powers. The more damage your country and forces take, the more the bar increases. Losing land will cause the biggest gains in the meter. And then, when it's at its peak... something amazing happens.

What the effect is will depend on the country and the severity of its plight. For example, take the Aztecs. If they're doing relatively well, perhaps an incarnation of Quetzelcoatl will appear, and assist in a war for a month. But if they're getting creamed, they could gain limited control over the power of the Sun. They can decrease the sunlight over their foes' fields, causing an early winter and famine. Or they could change the angle of the sun's rays, putting the light in their enemies' eyes even at the wrong time of day.

This mechanic would make serious strides towards balancing the game and eliminating unfair advantages. It would also make games more exciting, since a country you thought was down-and-out could make a sudden and spectacular comeback. Yes, it's a major shift in the style of the game, and many set-in-their-ways fanboys will complain. But look past these reactionary balkings, and see the real benefit of these ideas. Together, we can make the best historical game ever conceived.
 

SeedSnatcher

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My suggestion would be to try EU3. While it doesn't have CO Powers (would alienate the fanbase too much to be cool, although Omens in EU: Rome are a similiar, if not much more passive concept), there is a good deal more variety in the military units, and there is much less focus on history.
 

unmerged(84239)

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HistoryBuff302 said:
The game is clearly biased in favor of a few large European countries, and pretty much everyone else has no chance of doing well. Just today, I tried to play EU2 as the Aztecs (my personal favorite civ!), and got horribly mutilated once Spain showed up. I played near-perfectly, but had no chance! The game needs rebalancing.


I think the fact that playing european countries is much easier then aztecs (indians, ethiopeans, japanese, etc.) IS historical. They were more advanced during EU2 period.

Btw. as Aztecs, you CAN beat the spanish. Hard, sure, but can be done.
 

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HistoryBuff302 said:
Hey guys. Long time lurker, first time poster. Please be supportive, I'm a bit nervous about coming forward like this!

Now, I love the EU series more than my family, but I think we can all see by now that it has flaws. The game is clearly biased in favor of a few large European countries, and pretty much everyone else has no chance of doing well. Just today, I tried to play EU2 as the Aztecs (my personal favorite civ!), and got horribly mutilated once Spain showed up. I played near-perfectly, but had no chance! The game needs rebalancing.


HistoryBuff302 said:
Ideas for a more balanced and (maybe!) historical game



Welcome here at the boards.
I just can't see how the Aztecs would ever get strong enough to win against Spain, if you want it more historical at same time.
Balance and history will never go hand in hand, if it was so, then we would not have had all those major changes in history. :p

As SeedSnatcher also wrote, I would recommend you to play EU3. It's far more ahistorical than EU2. EU2 and it's largest part of it's fanbase has always tried to get it historical.
 

unmerged(48794)

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That it is historical, is for me the fun part. To me more options in handling your alliances would really add something to the game, but that's just a digression.

European nations was of course much more powerfull than i.e aztecs, and the only reason I would try to play aztec would be to see how far I could make it. No world dominance I guess...
 

Incompetent

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HistoryBuff302 said:
Just today, I tried to play EU2 as the Aztecs (my personal favorite civ!), and got horribly mutilated once Spain showed up. I played near-perfectly, but had no chance! The game needs rebalancing.

By the time the Spanish showed up, they were armed with muskets while the Aztecs didn't even have metal weapons. What do you propose the Aztecs could have done differently in the 15th century to be militarily on par with the Spanish by the 16th?

Imagine if magic suddenly developed in Africa in 1400!

Paradox makes historical strategy games. The games can and do allow for plausible what-ifs where some battle has a different outcome or what have you, but not wild speculation and earth-shattering changes. There's infinite potential for speculation about contact with aliens or the discovery of fire-breathing dragons in Borneo, but there isn't really any way to include this in the game without writing a specific alternate 'magical' history - and then that would be implausible, because it would happen often despite being immensely unlikely.

If you want a scenario that deviates more dramatically from history, but still has a 'history' of its own, try Interregnum. We don't have magic, but we do have a world which is less Eurocentric, and in Europe the balance of power is quite different, with many potential powers that are generally different from the historical ones.

If you just want a completely freeform game, EU2 probably isn't for you. Try EU3, or better yet a Civilisation game.

If you really want a grand strategy 'swords and sorcery' game, I'm sure those exist, but by necessity they wouldn't bear much resemblance to history. Perhaps the best you'll get is a game based on Greek or Indian mythology, which may have been inspired by real events but has a heavy dose of magic and the like thrown in.
 

unmerged(83394)

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Sep 3, 2007
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I will say one thing in ways of spicing up the game : Multiplayer.

Eu2 has its flaws like any game, but playing a good multi-player game will make you appreciate the historicity. Playing as European countries in MP is very fun! I don't have time to play MP, but if you can set aside 3-4 hours a week on a certain day, I say make your way to the MP forums and find yourself a game! :)
 

Knug Anders

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HistoryBuff302 said:
Hey guys. Long time lurker, first time poster. Please be supportive, I'm a bit nervous about coming forward like this!

Now, I love the EU series more than my family, but I think we can all see by now that it has flaws. The game is clearly biased in favor of a few large European countries, and pretty much everyone else has no chance of doing well. Just today, I tried to play EU2 as the Aztecs (my personal favorite civ!), and got horribly mutilated once Spain showed up. I played near-perfectly, but had no chance! The game needs rebalancing.

I have a few suggestions for improving the game. Please try to keep an open mind: these ideas would change the game somewhat, but without change, it would just stagnate!

1) More historical flexibility
What if history went down a different path? What if something other than technology became the driving force of humanity's ascent? This idea would allow for more diversity in the way civilization develops between the time period given. Imagine if magic suddenly developed in Africa in 1400! The world would certainly be different! And of course, magic has never been definitively disproven. Who knows what might have happened? Imagine hiring alchemists to transmute your country's resources into gold! Or developing mages instead of artillery! And naturally, chances like these would balance the game by allowing the weaker nations a possibility to develop serious power. The historical options are limited only to Paradox's imagination!

2) Elite units
Right now, military options between countries are kinda bland. Other than land tech level and general selection, little differentiates opposing armies. This idea would change that! Every country to ever exist has had a rich mythology of legendary warriors, from Norse berserkers to the Japanese ninja. Why not be able to field them and wield these magnificent fighters against your foes? Imagine a force of Austrian werewolves, or a Romanian vampire brigade! The Greeks could get small groups of elite Spartan warriors, as seen in the (inaccurate) Hollywood movie "300."

These forces would only be available to struggling countries, since a nation in trouble will cling to its myths and legends. This will be a major balancing force, allowing disadvantaged parties access to better troops for a time, until they can work their way up. I think this idea would not only improve game balance, but would also add to the flavor of playing a country for more fun all around.

3) The Special Meter
This idea may be controversial to some people here. The basic idea is that, when a nation is in dire straits, the belief and will of its people can make a miracle happen. These would be regulated by a meter, called the "special meter." If you've played the GBA/DS Advance Wars games, think of it like the CO powers. The more damage your country and forces take, the more the bar increases. Losing land will cause the biggest gains in the meter. And then, when it's at its peak... something amazing happens.

What the effect is will depend on the country and the severity of its plight. For example, take the Aztecs. If they're doing relatively well, perhaps an incarnation of Quetzelcoatl will appear, and assist in a war for a month. But if they're getting creamed, they could gain limited control over the power of the Sun. They can decrease the sunlight over their foes' fields, causing an early winter and famine. Or they could change the angle of the sun's rays, putting the light in their enemies' eyes even at the wrong time of day.

This mechanic would make serious strides towards balancing the game and eliminating unfair advantages. It would also make games more exciting, since a country you thought was down-and-out could make a sudden and spectacular comeback. Yes, it's a major shift in the style of the game, and many set-in-their-ways fanboys will complain. But look past these reactionary balkings, and see the real benefit of these ideas. Together, we can make the best historical game ever conceived.

*shudder*
 

orimazd

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If you want elite units, go play AOE2; magic, play AOE3 (I guess...I never have). If you want historical flexibility, go play interregnum or EU3.
 

unmerged(48794)

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hmm, after reading this post about "improving" the game, I come to understand that it's all bollocks. The ideas you have would actually make the EUII more like other games.

And I do not think an army of werewolves would be any realistic or fun...
 
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There are many mods that make the game a bit more "balanced" allowing greater flexibility for historical weak nations(AGc-EEP). In truth, you can't have both historical and balanced outcomes. The aztecs didn't have and most likely wouldn't have had a chance, they didn't even know what the hell iron nor the wheel was, they used stone tools... If the couple of 100 Spaniards hadn't destroyed them, the diseases brought over from Europe would have done so.

As for the "elite units" and miracle thing, that's the kind of things that makes TW series crappy (except for the battles). For those things games like Empire earth and Age of empire exists.
There weren't any real "elite troops" historically during the time period EUII covers with the exception of maybe Napoleons Imperial Guard. As for miracles, that doesn't really have relevance with the kind of game EUII in the way you want it to work. There is no "magic" in real life after all, or maybe Hitler was really the great undead zombie Napoleon whom was brought back by the Nazi shamans!!! :rofl: Hmm, I wonder why he didn't send his army of vampires when the allies steamrolled into Berlin.
At most a "miracle" should raise stability of the nation and the moral of the troops and that is what the random event currently does, but that you gain super natural powers? give me a break...
 

unmerged(58575)

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Did I tell you that this post frightens me...
 

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Knight Richard said:
There are many mods that make the game a bit more "balanced" allowing greater flexibility for historical weak nations(AGc-EEP). In truth, you can't have both historical and balanced outcomes. The aztecs didn't have and most likely wouldn't have had a chance, they didn't even know what the hell iron nor the wheel was, they used stone tools... If the couple of 100 Spaniards hadn't destroyed them, the diseases brought over from Europe would have done so.

Well I think this might be a bit of an overstatement, which is also why there is the chance that Spain doesn't wipe out the Aztecs.
 

Brian Roastbeef

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Bah. Lay off him, guys.

Historybuff, just dig through the mods forum. I doubt that there is anything exactly like you mentioned, but there are a lot of different mods that set up various situations. Somebody mentioned Interregnum, which basically promotes all of the could've should've nations that didn't quite get there in history.

Better yet, look through the stuff that might help you figure out how to mod stuff yourself. Some stuff is hard coded, but there is a lot that you can do with this game. Insert events for Aztecs or Xhosa or somebody that boosts techs, adds cores, affects nations to simulate their resurgence. AGCEEP people created scenarios for a resurgent Granada and Byzantium; you could create a tough-fighting Aztecs.

If you want a "special meter," insert events that trigger if a country loses certain provinces, that will give them a good leader, massive sum of gold, massive tech investment or a choice of one of these. Give it a try if that's what you're looking for. Some stuff might be better with a different game, but you can mod this one, to a point.
 
Oct 3, 2005
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Garbon said:
Well I think this might be a bit of an overstatement, which is also why there is the chance that Spain doesn't wipe out the Aztecs.
How so? The diseases alone decimated the entire indigenous population which would have essentially destroyed the ability of any sizesable Aztec force to fight back the eventual arrival of 1000s of more Spaniards. At most they would have bought a couple of years.
Don't get me wrong, if he wants to have the miracle thing and the Aztecs sailing across the Atlantic in their canoes and conquering Spain that is his business and the reason why mods exist; but to go and call it more historical?
 

orimazd

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Knight Richard said:
How so? The diseases alone decimated the entire indigenous population which would have essentially destroyed the ability of any sizesable Aztec force to fight back the eventual arrival of 1000s of more Spaniards. At most they would have bought a couple of years.
Don't get me wrong, if he wants to have the miracle thing and the Aztecs sailing across the Atlantic in their canoes and conquering Spain that is his business and the reason why mods exist; but to go and call it more historical?
The only reason that the Spanish won was because they got the Tlaxcalans on their side. Even then they almost lost; Cortes was once saved by one of his crew jumping in front of a sword blade that was about to come down on his neck, and the rest of the crew were too much of argumentative pricks to have allowed anyone else to be at their head.

People think it was the guns, but maybe a dozen people had them (I think) and they took forever to reload. All they were good for was making people think that it was thunder striking them down.

It was Cortes's idea to conquer the Aztec Empire, and having found an empire in the new world, the spanish monarchy, who did listen to the priests when they talked about the abuses of the slaveowners, would have much rather traded with them, making veracruz a sort of city like Nagasaki in Japan. The destruction of this entire world was not an absolute, although Mexica defeat of the Tlaxcalans plus the Spanish invaders was unlikely. However, had Motecuhsoma seen them for who they really were after the massacre at Cholulla, things could have gone very differently.

/enough of the thread hijack, but its more useful words than the opening post
 

Therion

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I'd rather not trust modern historical revisionists. The Eurocentrism which formerly occupied European thought (which is quite natural - everyone sees things from one's own perspective) has been transformed into ridiculous downplaying of everything achieved by Europeans. If it wasn't sheer ability, than it must have been guns (before remarking that gunpowder was invented by the Chinese) and if not guns, disease. I see the work of materialist-liberal-marxist anthropologists here, ignoring the individual (his ideas which are manifested in things like will to power, persistency, cunning, etc.) and explaining things exclusively from the material.

Knight Richard said:
The diseases alone decimated the entire indigenous population which would have essentially destroyed the ability of any sizesable Aztec force to fight back the eventual arrival of 1000s of more Spaniards.
To this day, the majority of people in most of Latin America are indigenous.
 

unmerged(48794)

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Sep 20, 2005
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The fact is that south america was conquered with different means. Diseases was an important factor and superior weapons. Perhaps morale as well, but they wiped out any hostile forces, and formed south america pretty much as we know it today. The language is an good example of this impact.

As stated before, this view depends on every mans subjective view and feelings I think. However, European superiority "won" the south america, and there is history to prove it. And since EUII is a historical game, there is no wonder why you can't go for world dominance with any south american nation. Unless you're a cheater...
 

orimazd

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Therion said:
I'd rather not trust modern historical revisionists. The Eurocentrism which formerly occupied European thought (which is quite natural - everyone sees things from one's own perspective) has been transformed into ridiculous downplaying of everything achieved by Europeans. If it wasn't sheer ability, than it must have been guns (before remarking that gunpowder was invented by the Chinese) and if not guns, disease. I see the work of materialist-liberal-marxist anthropologists here, ignoring the individual (his ideas which are manifested in things like will to power, persistency, cunning, etc.) and explaining things exclusively from the material.
Cortes definitely was a superior diplomat, being able to take advantage of the sides of the fight like he did, recruiting 20k Tlaxcalan warriors to fight alongside the 200 or 300 spanish soldiers, most of whom didn't even have a horse. I won't doubt that their steel swords were extremely useful and saved them in may fights; a lot of the spaniards abandoned their steel armor for the cotton armor worn by the natives.

Of course the Spaniards were technologically superior. The question that people ask nowadays is how Eurasia and Europe in particular was able to develop the technology so well. I think Robert Wright ( Nonzero )and Jared Diamond (Guns, Germs, and Steel , Collapse ) do the best jobs of explaining how it happened.